The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: RoosGirl on October 19, 2017, 09:19:30 pm
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Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson was interviewed on the subject of the Harvey Weinstein sexual abuse scandal. She started out saying she was angry at ole Harv, but quickly put it all on his victims.
“I grew up in a time when it was as much the woman’s responsibility as it was a man’s — how you were dressed, what your behavior was. I’m from the old school that you can have behaviors that appear to be inviting. It can be interpreted as such. That’s the responsibility, I think, of the female. I think that males have a responsibility to be professional themselves,” said Johnson.
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https://downtrend.com/71superb/democratic-rep-blames-harvey-weinsteins-victims-for-being-too-slutty
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Takes two to tango.
This isn't like when a family member abuses a person. These women had a choice...Ok, so maybe they wouldn't have their precious little acting career. But all they did was to make sure in the future that others would have to put out to get the roles, and now that they made their millions, ooooh now they're so brave.....Gag me.
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(http://www.justlabelit.org/wp-content/themes/jli_2015/img/Bernice_Johnson.jpg)
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Uh oh...she made a statement loaded with common sense. :nono:
Going to be interesting to see how the snowflakes and SJW's respond... :pondering:
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Already walked it back...that didn't take long. :whistle:
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2017/10/19/dallas-congresswoman-walks-back-assertion-sexual-assault-responsibility-female
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A common sense comment by a Toronto policeman began the Slut Walk craze.
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Eddie Bernice Johnson is the only thing keepin Sheila Jackson Lee from the title of worlds dumbest congressman.
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Hmm, a couple of the comments here make me believe that if those members magically found a naked woman in their backyards they would think it would be okay to have sex with them, even if the woman said no.
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Hmm, a couple of the comments here make me believe that if those members magically found a naked woman in their backyards they would think it would be okay to have sex with them, even if the woman said no.
Only if they are wearing a Darth Vader helmet. I have standards.
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Hmm, a couple of the comments here make me believe that if those members magically found a naked woman in their backyards they would think it would be okay to have sex with them, even if the woman said no.
I was about to say the same thing. Disgusting.
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Hmm, a couple of the comments here make me believe that if those members magically found a naked woman in their backyards they would think it would be okay to have sex with them, even if the woman said no.
Part of the reason we're in the mess we're in now..........
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I was about to say the same thing. Disgusting.
Nauseating, actually.
Ol Perv Harv just couldn't help himself because of the way those teenaged girls dressed.......... **nononono*
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Takes two to tango.
This isn't like when a family member abuses a person. These women had a choice...Ok, so maybe they wouldn't have their precious little acting career. But all they did was to make sure in the future that others would have to put out to get the roles, and now that they made their millions, ooooh now they're so brave.....Gag me.
You need to do some more editing on this disgusting post.
Like maybe to delete it?? **nononono*
Or did you think Paula and Gennifer, and Juanita were at fault too, and not Bill Clinton??
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Nauseating, actually.
Ol Perv Harv just couldn't help himself because of the way those teenaged girls dressed.......... **nononono*
If only one of these actresses decided that their precious little acting career wasn't worth it and walked away and took down Harvey a long time ago, many others would have been spared.
But now that they have their "FU Money", now they can be "brave" and come out against Weinstein.
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If only one of these actresses decided that their precious little acting career wasn't worth it and walked away and took down Harvey a long time ago, many others would have been spared.
But now that they have their "FU Money", now they can be "brave" and come out against Weinstein.
Do you have ANY clue about sexual predators.............. especially those in power??
Do you have ANY idea how much courage it takes to come out against a man in power who has abused you???
The ignorance you display in these posts is stunning.
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Do you have ANY clue about sexual predators.............. especially those in power??
Do you have ANY idea how much courage it takes to come out against a man in power who has abused you???
The ignorance you display in these posts is stunning.
They could have walked away before the abuse, would they have to perhaps give up their acting career? Maybe so. But they had that choice.
When it's a relative or a family member, you don't have that choice, it's not so easy to walk away.
And if more of them had done that, then this crap would have ended in Hollywood years ago. Don't tell me these women didn't know how things were in Hollywood before they went there.
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You need to do some more editing on this disgusting post.
Like maybe to delete it?? **nononono*
Or did you think Paula and Gennifer, and Juanita were at fault too, and not Bill Clinton??
Did these women know about Bill Clinton before they met him? I highly doubt that. But the slime in Hollywood has been known for years.
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They could have walked away before the abuse, would they have to perhaps give up their acting career? Maybe so. But they had that choice.
When it's a relative or a family member, you don't have that choice, it's not so easy to walk away.
And if more of them had done that, then this crap would have ended in Hollywood years ago. Don't tell me these women didn't know how things were in Hollywood before they went there.
Do you know how YOUNG some of these "women" were??
I can't believe you're blaming them for what this vile, sleazy pedophile predator did to them?
Yes, Hollywood has been a vile place for a long time, but making excuses for the man and blaming the young, young women for this abuse is despicable.
btw, you never answered my question....... were Bill Clinton's victims also to blame? Bill Cosby's? Donald Trump's? Every predatory boss out there preying on young women who want to keep their jobs?
I certainly wish they had had the courage to come out about this earlier, but you have NO idea how difficult and sometimes dangerous it is to come out against someone with this much power, and influence.
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If only one of these actresses decided that their precious little acting career wasn't worth it and walked away and took down Harvey a long time ago, many others would have been spared.
But now that they have their "FU Money", now they can be "brave" and come out against Weinstein.
Courtney Love tried when it happened to her, she spoke out immediately, and nothing happened.
It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and say what they should have done, it is another thing to try to weigh the consequences of what will happen going up against someone as powerful as Weinstein who could destroy their lives- especially in a he said she said scenario. They also probably saw when Love spoke up, it didn't change anything. Even if they were rational enough to do a risk/benefit analysis, the odds wouldn't be in their favor.
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Did these women know about Bill Clinton before they met him? I highly doubt that. But the slime in Hollywood has been known for years.
That's quite a reach. Has every young woman in Hollywood been raped? Is every producer a sexual predator?
You're blaming these young women for being raped. Do you understand how vile that is?
Hollywood is an immoral place, but making that an excuse for men to rape and saying that women should have known better is absurd.
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Courtney Love tried when it happened to her, she spoke out immediately, and nothing happened.
It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and say what they should have done, it is another thing to try to weigh the consequences of what will happen going up against someone as powerful as Weinstein who could destroy their lives- especially in a he said she said scenario. They also probably saw when Love spoke up, it didn't change anything. Even if they were rational enough to do a risk/benefit analysis, the odds wouldn't be in their favor.
It is also possible to want something so badly that your good judgement is impaired by it.
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They could have walked away before the abuse, would they have to perhaps give up their acting career? Maybe so. But they had that choice.
When it's a relative or a family member, you don't have that choice, it's not so easy to walk away.
And if more of them had done that, then this crap would have ended in Hollywood years ago. Don't tell me these women didn't know how things were in Hollywood before they went there.
No, they couldn't have walked away before the abuse; some of them went to his room for what they thought was a conversation and he ended up asking for massages and them to watch him while he showered, not knowing that's what he was going to do to them.
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Do you know how YOUNG some of these "women" were??
I can't believe you're blaming them for what this vile, sleazy pedophile predator did to them?
Yes, Hollywood has been a vile place for a long time, but making excuses for the man and blaming the young, young women for this abuse is despicable.
btw, you never answered my question....... were Bill Clinton's victims also to blame? Bill Cosby's? Donald Trump's? Every predatory boss out there preying on young women who want to keep their jobs?
I certainly wish they had had the courage to come out about this earlier, but you have NO idea how difficult and sometimes dangerous it is to come out against someone with this much power, and influence.
Not making excuses at all for Weinstein, frankly if it were up to me, I'd put a bullet in his head right now. And yes some of the women were very young, and I excuse them, but there were older ones who should have known better that came before them.
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Hmm, a couple of the comments here make me believe that if those members magically found a naked woman in their backyards they would think it would be okay to have sex with them, even if the woman said no.
Really? You inferred that from my comment? Sorry, but no.
What she originally said about the females who throw themselves at the man/men and then cry foul has merit.
Like false rape allegations that land men in jail for years with little to no consequence for the liar/accuser.
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Really? You inferred that from my comment? Sorry, but no.
What she originally said about the females who throw themselves at the man/men and then cry foul has merit.
Like false rape allegations that land men in jail for years with little to no consequence for the liar/accuser.
You said her attack on the women raped by Weinstein was "common sense."
What else is to be "inferred" from that??
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some of them went to his room for what they thought was a conversation
Now why would anyone in their right mind go to a complete strangers' room like that? Why couldn't that conservation have taken place in a public place, like a restaurant?
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Not making excuses at all for Weinstein, frankly if it were up to me, I'd put a bullet in his head right now. And yes some of the women were very young, and I excuse them, but there were older ones who should have known better that came before them.
Well you walked that attack on the women back a fur piece.
I guess I'll have to accept your corrective, while still strongly disagreeing with your blaming the victim for the rape by a monster.
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Well you walked that attack on the women back a fur piece.
I guess I'll have to accept your corrective, while still strongly disagreeing with your blaming the victim for the rape by a monster.
There are lots of bad men in this world. That is an absolute fact. How would you suggest young women be protected from them?
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Well you walked that attack on the women back a fur piece.
I guess I'll have to accept your corrective, while still strongly disagreeing with your blaming the victim for the rape by a monster.
I'm thinking more of the types like Scarlett Johansen, who obviously had no problems, going along with Weinstein to further her career. These are the ones who over the years perpetuate this sleaze right along with the Weinsteins of Hollywood (and believe me, he isn't the only one).
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Now why would anyone in their right mind go to a complete strangers' room like that? Why couldn't that conservation have taken place in a public place, like a restaurant?
So, were this a mentally disabled person, they also would deserve sexual abuse?
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There are lots of bad men in this world. That is an absolute fact. How would you suggest young women be protected from them?
Prosecuting them.
But then, we have this glaring example of Bill Clinton, rapist, sexual predator, who is walking free....
So I'd say, every little girl needs to learn to defend herself physically. And be given enough self-confidence to walk away, and report it to the police when a boss or powerful man abuses them.
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So, were this a mentally disabled person, they also would deserve sexual abuse?
Were they mentally disabled? I mean I know most actors and actresses are moonbatty morons, but I think they are smart enough to know better.
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So I'd say, every little girl needs to learn to defend herself physically. And be given enough self-confidence to walk away, and report it to the police when a boss or powerful man abuses them.
On this, we agree.
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Were they mentally disabled? I mean I know most actors and actresses are moonbatty morons, but I think they are smart enough to know better.
So we're back to my original statement, some woman magically shows up in front of a man and is naked and it's fine for the man to do whatever he wants.
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Were they mentally disabled? I mean I know most actors and actresses are moonbatty morons, but I think they are smart enough to know better.
Dangling the prospect of stardom in front of many is enough to render them mentally disabled I suppose.
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So we're back to my original statement, some woman magically shows up in front of a man and is naked and it's fine for the man to do whatever he wants.
Of course not.
But having said that, I certainly would tell my daughter up front, to never put herself in such a position, and to never even think of having a career in Hollywood.
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Were they mentally disabled? I mean I know most actors and actresses are moonbatty morons, but I think they are smart enough to know better.
Do you understand the physical power a man has over a young girl? Smart enough to know better than to audition? Than to be an actress? Or in the business world, smart enough to not want to be fired for refusing? What, exactly do they have to be 'smarter than' here?
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So we're back to my original statement, some woman magically shows up in front of a man and is naked and it's fine for the man to do whatever he wants.
I'm sorry but I missed anyone making a statement remotely like that on this thread before you just did.
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So we're back to my original statement, some woman magically shows up in front of a man and is naked and it's fine for the man to do whatever he wants.
I'm stuck on the "magically" part. I don't believe in magic. That shit doesn't happen.
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Dangling the prospect of stardom in front of many is enough to render them mentally disabled I suppose.
Maybe so. And in many cases it's the parents that drive it.
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Do you understand the physical power a man has over a young girl? Smart enough to know better than to audition? Than to be an actress? Or in the business world, smart enough to not want to be fired for refusing? What, exactly do they have to be 'smarter than' here?
I thought you audition onstage, and not in a hotel room.
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Maybe so. And in many cases it's the parents that drive it.
And those parents have power over the girls too.
I'd sooner blame them than the victims of rape.
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I thought you audition onstage, and not in a hotel room.
Are you actually naïve enough to think that rapes only occur in hotel rooms?
Because if you're not, your comment is meaningless.
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I'm sorry but I missed anyone making a statement remotely like that on this thread before you just did.
See Reply #7
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If someone should have spoken up, why not the men too? Apparently everyone knew what was going on. One of the recent stories one of the male actors got between Weinstein and his young (under age?) costar and said 'not her Harvey' (I think it was Gerard Butler but I am probably wrong). So it was known exactly who he was and what he did and at least stepped in on one occasion- but even that story implies the men knew what was going on and let it pass with one rare exception.
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Prosecuting them.
But then, we have this glaring example of Bill Clinton, rapist, sexual predator, who is walking free....
So I'd say, every little girl needs to learn to defend herself physically. And be given enough self-confidence to walk away, and report it to the police when a boss or powerful man abuses them.
Ok! I agree with every bit of that. Now what?
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I'm stuck on the "magically" part. I don't believe in magic. That shit doesn't happen.
:poohappen:
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If someone should have spoken up, why not the men too? Apparently everyone knew what was going on. One of the recent stories one of the male actors got between Weinstein and his young (under age?) costar and said 'not her Harvey' (I think it was Gerard Butler but I am probably wrong). So it was known exactly who he was and what he did and at least stepped in on one occasion- but even that story implies the men knew what was going on and let it pass with one rare exception.
No question there is a gay casting couch in Hollywood as well.
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Ok! I agree with every bit of that. Now what?
OK........ I have a plan, but you may not like it.
It involves a procedure that they used to use in Italian Opera to keep men's voices high. :smokin:
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Are you actually naïve enough to think that rapes only occur in hotel rooms?
Of course not.
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See Reply #7
That is again a statement from youself. :thud:
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Do you understand the physical power a man has over a young girl?
Define "young".
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:poohappen:
Not around me it doesn't. I'm old, fat and weird looking. I'm like that cat I had to change my Avatar from. I don't even have pictures of myself on Bookface.
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Define "young".
Not that it matters, but in her teens....
How much does Harvey weigh? Over two hundred, I'd say.
How much do most young actresses weigh? Less than 120, I'd say.
Are you really not aware of the physical peril than men put women in? Are you really not aware of the risk involved in fighting back, or reporting in a power situation?
C'mon, dfwgator. You're not that dense.
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Define "young".
Eva Green's mom said she was 37 when Weinstein went after her so Eva must have been very young- 16 or 17. I think Molly Ringwald said she was 16.
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Not that it matters, but in her teens....
How much does Harvey weigh? Over two hundred, I'd say.
How much do most young actresses weigh? Less than 120, I'd say.
Are you really not aware of the physical peril than men put women in? Are you really not aware of the risk involved in fighting back, or reporting in a power situation?
C'mon, dfwgator. You're not that dense.
Don't these women have agents? Why wouldn't they insist that their agent sit in with them, so they weren't alone with Weinstein? I don't want to excuse Weinstein, that never was my intent. But it just seems to me there were some things that could have been done to diffuse what you call the "power situation."
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Don't these women have agents? Why wouldn't they insist that their agent sit in with them, so they weren't alone with Weinstein? I don't want to excuse Weinstein, that never was my intent. But it just seems to me there were some things that could have been done to diffuse what you call the "power situation."
Since neither of us is on the inside track, nor can personally comprehend the perversion of Hollywood, let's just assume that there was no one else in the room with Harvey and these teenaged girls.
The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the pedophile pervert, NOT the girls.
He had ALL the power.
It's really not that difficult to understand, so I'll let you figure the rest out for yourself.
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Sorry, in my world there is no reason or excuse for sexually abusing anyone. It concerns me greatly that some people here think that because someone exhibited poor judgement that made them fair game for a sexual predator.
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Sorry, in my world there is no reason or excuse for sexually abusing anyone. It concerns me greatly that some people here think that because someone exhibited poor judgement that made them fair game for a sexual predator.
It concerns me as well.
And might likely be an indicator as to why the problem persists in this kind of abuse.
Why it is not universally and soundly condemned concerns me greatly.
(I had the same response on this forum when a couple of "the guys" here excused Trump and his sexual predation).
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Sorry, in my world there is no reason or excuse for sexually abusing anyone. It concerns me greatly that some people here think that because someone exhibited poor judgement that made them fair game for a sexual predator.
I absolutely agree! Now has our agreement precluded it from happening? I think not!
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She's a member of two protected classes so it will all be ok for her.
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I absolutely agree! Now has our agreement precluded it from happening? I think not!
You can blame Weinstein 100% until the cows come home, fine.....But how are we going to solve this problem going forward? Hashtags ain't gonna cut it.
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She's a member of two protected classes so it will all be ok for her.
A valid point.
There will be no negative consequences for her victim-blaming/pervert-excusing words.
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You can blame Weinstein 100% until the cows come home, fine.....But how are we going to solve this problem going forward? Hashtags ain't gonna cut it.
Sexual predators with shiny objects they can use to lure victims don't give one hoot in hell what we might think of their actions.
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You can blame Weinstein 100% until the cows come home, fine.....But how are we going to solve this problem going forward? Hashtags ain't gonna cut it.
Maybe a good start would be not making statements that make it appear the victim did something to deserve the treatment they received.
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Sexual predators with shiny objects they can use to lure victims don't give one hoot in hell what we might think of their actions.
No. But this is one area when information and education will make a difference.
If women, who have been shamed into not reporting abuse and rape, begin to speak up in larger numbers, with MORE support from people........ especially conservative men......... then changes can begin to take place.
But as long as a number of people continue to blame them for what a stronger, more powerful man did to them, it's going to continue at the same pace.
We are not helpless here, Bigun. A number of Christian Conservative men have begun to speak out, and this is GOOD.
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Sexual predators with shiny objects they can use to lure victims don't give one hoot in hell what we might think of their actions.
Well one thing I hope comes from this is that more will just say "No" to Hollywood, it's an evil place, and if they never produced one more piece of garbage, that would be fine with me. We've got all the movies and TV Shows we'll ever need, already.
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Maybe a good start would be not making statements that make it appear the victim did something to deserve the treatment they received.
:amen:
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I may be a little off here, but I think it would be great if people would stop looking for offense to take at every little word people say. But I've been told I'm more than a little "off."
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You can blame Weinstein 100% until the cows come home, fine.....But how are we going to solve this problem going forward? Hashtags ain't gonna cut it.
You are correct. Hashtags won't fix it. And truth be known, it isn't just Weinstein or in Hollywood. It happens all the time in all phases of life.
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I may be a little off here, but I think it would be great if people would stop looking for offense to take at every little word people say. But I've been told I'm more than a little "off."
There's a significant difference between taking offense at "every little word" and responding to words that are legitimately offensive.
That's what has happened here, and IMO, it has led to some healthy discussion that needs to take place.
@Cyber Liberty
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You are correct. Hashtags won't fix it. And truth be known, it isn't just Weinstein or in Hollywood. It happens all the time in all phases of life.
A word about hashtags (in this situation)...... No, they won't "fix it," but as I have been on FB the past week or so, I have seen many women I know put #metoo by their names, and reveal that they have been sexually assaulted.
Now not one of these women has ever been to Hollywood other than perhaps to visit, and they are all ordinary women.... not starlets....... who have been assaulted by sexual predators, but many of whom haven't spoken up before.
It is HARD to tell others that you've been assaulted. It is HARD to make it public. But it is critical to healing to do so.
The hashtag, in this case, is good for the women who have been victims...... some as young as 3 when it happened...... THREE! It is an important step in their own personal recovery, and is not some dumb liberal response to a tragedy that doesn't help. In this case, it DOES help. It helps the victims of monstrous men heal.
The insensitivity to the victims of assault by some conservative men is troubling.
Take this seriously please.
Please.
@RoosGirl @dfwgator @SZonian @berdie @Bigun @AbaraXas @Cyber Liberty
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Even Monica Lewinsky tweeted #MeToo......Really?!?!?!?!
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A word about hashtags (in this situation)...... No, they won't "fix it," but as I have been on FB the past week or so, I have seen many women I know put #metoo by their names, and reveal that they have been sexually assaulted.
Now not one of these women has ever been to Hollywood other than perhaps to visit, and they are all ordinary women.... not starlets....... who have been assaulted by sexual predators, but many of whom haven't spoken up before.
It is HARD to tell others that you've been assaulted. It is HARD to make it public. But it is critical to healing to do so.
The hashtag, in this case, is good for the women who have been victims...... some as young as 3 when it happened...... THREE! It is an important step in their own personal recovery, and is not some dumb liberal response to a tragedy that doesn't help. In this case, it DOES help. It helps the victims of monstrous men heal.
The insensitivity to the victims of assault by some conservative men is troubling.
Take this seriously please.
Please.
@RoosGirl @dfwgator @SZonian @berdie @Bigun @AbaraXas @Cyber Liberty
But I do take it seriously. Nobody asked me if I did, somehow it's assumed I don't because I haven't mouthed some magic words. I've worked in a large corporate environment for over 30 years, and one doesn't survive if one doesn't take harassment very seriously.
What I will not do is assume guilt until innocence is proven. Assuming innocence is not in the anti-harassment culture, hasn't been since the 80's, and I consider that a problem.
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A word about hashtags (in this situation)...... No, they won't "fix it," but as I have been on FB the past week or so, I have seen many women I know put #metoo by their names, and reveal that they have been sexually assaulted.
Now not one of these women has ever been to Hollywood other than perhaps to visit, and they are all ordinary women.... not starlets....... who have been assaulted by sexual predators, but many of whom haven't spoken up before.
It is HARD to tell others that you've been assaulted. It is HARD to make it public. But it is critical to healing to do so.
The hashtag, in this case, is good for the women who have been victims...... some as young as 3 when it happened...... THREE! It is an important step in their own personal recovery, and is not some dumb liberal response to a tragedy that doesn't help. In this case, it DOES help. It helps the victims of monstrous men heal.
The insensitivity to the victims of assault by some conservative men is troubling.
Take this seriously please.
Please.
@RoosGirl @dfwgator @SZonian @berdie @Bigun @AbaraXas @Cyber Liberty
I DO take it seriously! Probably more so than most! But hashtags won't fix it! Only fixing our culture will do that and we are a LONG way from that happening!
Every day that William Jefferson Clinton is still walking around a free man gives testament to that sad fact!
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I see she's taking a page from Hillary's "How to get charges against a sexual predator dismissed" playbook
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But I do take it seriously. Nobody asked me if I did, somehow it's assumed I don't because I haven't mouthed some magic words. I've worked in a large corporate environment for over 30 years, and one doesn't survive if one doesn't take harassment very seriously.
What I will not do is assume guilt until innocence is proven. Assuming innocence is not in the anti-harassment culture, hasn't been since the 80's, and I consider that a problem.
I didn't imply, nor do I think you don't take it seriously.
I pinged everyone who was part of the conversation as a courtesy.
Sorry if I offended you.
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That is again a statement from youself. :thud:
And a valid question, btw.
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I DO take it seriously! Probably more so than most! But hashtags won't fix it! Only fixing our culture will do that and we are a LONG way from that happening!
Every day that William Jefferson Clinton is still walking around a free man gives testament to that sad fact!
My point, which you clearly missed, was that while hashtags don't "fix it," in this case, they are providing a very real service to the victims of creeps and abusers just like Bill Clinton.
Either I don't communicate as well as I thought, or there are people here looking to be offended..... :shrug:
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My point, which you clearly missed, was that while hashtags don't "fix it," in this case, they are providing a very real service to the victims of creeps and abusers just like Bill Clinton.
Either I don't communicate as well as I thought, or there are people here looking to be offended..... :shrug:
I'm not offended! Not at all! I'm just not governed by emotion. Most men aren't.
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I didn't imply, nor do I think you don't take it seriously.
I pinged everyone who was part of the conversation as a courtesy.
Sorry if I offended you.
No offense take, ML. I know that you know me better that that!
:beer:
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I'm not offended! Not at all! I'm just not governed by emotion. Most men aren't.
Not being governed by emotion is fine. Agreeing that someone deserved someone else to take advantage of them because they dressed a certain way is different than "not governed by emotion".
If this Rep's comment were not about Weinstein, but just about society in general, it would still be wrong. Women aren't "asking for it" because of the way they dress.
No one is being asked to assume guilt or develop some righteous indignation over the Weinstein thing. I think it unlikely, but all the women making accusations could be lying. That still doesn't mean that anyone deserves to be raped because of the way they dress, or because they go to a man's hotel room, or any other reason.
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Not being governed by emotion is fine. Agreeing that someone deserved someone else to take advantage of them because they dressed a certain way is different than "not governed by emotion".
If this Rep's comment were not about Weinstein, but just about society in general, it would still be wrong. Women aren't "asking for it" because of the way they dress.
No one is being asked to assume guilt or develop some righteous indignation over the Weinstein thing. I think it unlikely, but all the women making accusations could be lying. That still doesn't mean that anyone deserves to be raped because of the way they dress, or because they go to a man's hotel room, or any other reason.
The ONLY thing I like about this rep is that she is from Florida and this relieves Texas of having the dumbest congressman on Earth!
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I don't see anyone on this thread alleging that sexual assault or harassment by Weinstein or anyone else was in anyway ok, but when anyone is in a harassment (as opposed to forcible rape or assault) situation, they have a choice to walk away, despite the costs to their career.
There is so much consensual transactional sex in the entertainment industry (sexual favors for career advancement) that until that is considered unthinkable by *all* women, those women who won't engage in it are going to be at a disadvantage in their careers AND men in the industry are being conditioned to think that there's a good chance they'll get some in return for career advancement. That doesn't make any of what Harvey Weinstein did right, that doesn't make any of the women who were attacked, harassed, or otherwise abused by him at fault, but we need to acknowledge that they were victimized primarily by Weinstein and secondarily by culture in the entertainment industry created by those women in the industry who believe "sex is one of the weapons in my arsenal for career advancement."
It's also a little disturbing that a few of the women who are coming out are using Weinstein's physical grotesqueness as one of their primary talking points (i.e. "he looked like Jabba the Hutt"). That reads dangerously like a primary objection to his behavior comes from how he looked, not because they are objecting to the behavior qua behavior. It reads like transactional sex would have been ok if he were better looking. And that's a huge problem in and of itself.
Those who are saying on this thread that "maybe they wouldn't have gotten their career, but they DID have a choice" are also correct regarding those who were not physically assaulted by Weinstein (i.e. the requested massages, him taking off his clothes, etc). If he wasn't engaging in forcible action - and he seems not to have engaged in that in all of his sexually harassing interactions -- a lot of women were in a position where they did have a choice to walk away, to tell him off, to go to the police, to not put up with it. Yeah, maybe it would have cost them their career, and that's why it is so dicey to report sexual harassment. But they did have a choice, and a lot of them decided their shot at stardom was more important than (1) protecting other women from this behavior or (2) trying to get justice for themselves.
So yes, Harvey is the wrongdoer in a civil and criminal sense, and no one who was assaulted or harassed should be blamed for BEING assaulted or harassed, but blame can attach (1) to the things people who were harassed or assaulted chose to do (or not do) after the fact, although that would require that we know their motives for staying silent (i.e. if it's trauma and fear, that's one thing; if it's "I decided my career was more important than reporting" then, yeah, part of the problem and is a blameworthy thing) and (2) to anyone who engages in transactional sex to further their career, because that creates a culture where it's expected.
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So yes, Harvey is the wrongdoer in a civil and criminal sense, and no one who was assaulted or harassed should be blamed for BEING assaulted or harassed, but blame can attach (1) to the things people who were harassed or assaulted chose to do (or not do) after the fact, although that would require that we know their motives for staying silent (i.e. if it's trauma and fear, that's one thing; if it's "I decided my career was more important than reporting" then, yeah, part of the problem and is a blameworthy thing) and (2) to anyone who engages in transactional sex to further their career, because that creates a culture where it's expected.
:thumbsup:
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I'm still waiting for word on people who have used "The Casting Couch" to their benefit, to get a leg up (no pun intended) on the competition for a part. Is it sexist of me to wonder about this other side of the equation?
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I'm still waiting for word on people who have used "The Casting Couch" to their benefit, to get a leg up (no pun intended) on the competition for a part. Is it sexist of me to wonder about this other side of the equation?
Not at all, it's a valid question, it is what separates Hollywood from other situations.
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I'm still waiting for word on people who have used "The Casting Couch" to their benefit, to get a leg up (no pun intended) on the competition for a part. Is it sexist of me to wonder about this other side of the equation?
Surely you are not suggesting that there are women out there who will take full advantage of their physical attributes in order to get what they want! Surely not! /s
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I'm still waiting for word on people who have used "The Casting Couch" to their benefit, to get a leg up (no pun intended) on the competition for a part. Is it sexist of me to wonder about this other side of the equation?
Nope. I'm positive that kind of thing happens in just about every industry, just perhaps not as often as Hollywood..... and DC.
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Nope. I'm positive that kind of thing happens in just about every industry, just perhaps not as often as Hollywood..... and DC.
Not to the degree that it is in the Entertainment industry.
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Not to the degree that it is in the Entertainment industry.
I agree. It's called "The Casting Couch" for a reason.
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A word about hashtags (in this situation)...... No, they won't "fix it," but as I have been on FB the past week or so, I have seen many women I know put #metoo by their names, and reveal that they have been sexually assaulted.
Now not one of these women has ever been to Hollywood other than perhaps to visit, and they are all ordinary women.... not starlets....... who have been assaulted by sexual predators, but many of whom haven't spoken up before.
It is HARD to tell others that you've been assaulted. It is HARD to make it public. But it is critical to healing to do so.
The hashtag, in this case, is good for the women who have been victims...... some as young as 3 when it happened...... THREE! It is an important step in their own personal recovery, and is not some dumb liberal response to a tragedy that doesn't help. In this case, it DOES help. It helps the victims of monstrous men heal.
The insensitivity to the victims of assault by some conservative men is troubling.
Take this seriously please.
Please.
@RoosGirl @dfwgator @SZonian @berdie @Bigun @AbaraXas @Cyber Liberty
@musiclady
You and @RoosGirl had better do better than what you have been in hurling accusations towards me of condoning sexual assault. Show me where I condoned or encouraged or said the women were at fault. What the representative said is true...women who dress suggestively and throw themselves at men in power have no basis to then come back crying assault.
That's a hell of a lot different than a man forcing himself on the girls/women by abusing his position. I would never condone what is essentially rape and for you two to imply that my comments on this matter equal such a position is patently absurd.
Whatever you two inferred from my statements is not "concern", some burr is up your saddle and you better get it out
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Everyone brags about how awesome it is in Texas. Looking at it's representation I am starting to doubt that.....
(http://northdallasgazette.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/rep-Johnson-local-pix2.jpg)
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@musiclady
You and @RoosGirl had better do better than what you have been in hurling accusations towards me of condoning sexual assault. Show me where I condoned or encouraged or said the women were at fault. What the representative said is true...women who dress suggestively and throw themselves at men in power have no basis to then come back crying assault.
That's a hell of a lot different than a man forcing himself on the girls/women by abusing his position. I would never condone what is essentially rape and for you two to imply that my comments on this matter equal such a position is patently absurd.
Whatever you two inferred from my statements is not "concern", some burr is up your saddle and you better get it out
As a female, I also need to take issue with how some ladies, including here, are choosing to read the #metoo hashtag. It's not only being used by women who have been sexually assaulted. It's being used for a whole range of behaviors that women, either at the time or now, in retrospect (which is problematic), find offensive. That's a huge problem with the hashtag phenomenon - it becomes an airing of the grievances that spreads its blame much further than to actual wrongs.
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As a female, I also need to take issue with how some ladies, including here, are choosing to read the #metoo hashtag. It's not only being used by women who have been sexually assaulted. It's being used for a whole range of behaviors that women, either at the time or now, in retrospect (which is problematic), find offensive. That's a huge problem with the hashtag phenomenon - it becomes an airing of the grievances that spreads its blame much further than to actual wrongs.
I know the women who have used the hashtag on my feed and they ALL have been assaulted. One at the age of three.
Don't make generalizations.
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@musiclady
You and @RoosGirl had better do better than what you have been in hurling accusations towards me of condoning sexual assault. Show me where I condoned or encouraged or said the women were at fault. What the representative said is true...women who dress suggestively and throw themselves at men in power have no basis to then come back crying assault.
That's a hell of a lot different than a man forcing himself on the girls/women by abusing his position. I would never condone what is essentially rape and for you two to imply that my comments on this matter equal such a position is patently absurd.
Whatever you two inferred from my statements is not "concern", some burr is up your saddle and you better get it out
Please, feel free to continue agreeing with the dumbass Dem Rep.
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@musiclady
You and @RoosGirl had better do better than what you have been in hurling accusations towards me of condoning sexual assault. Show me where I condoned or encouraged or said the women were at fault. What the representative said is true...women who dress suggestively and throw themselves at men in power have no basis to then come back crying assault.
That's a hell of a lot different than a man forcing himself on the girls/women by abusing his position. I would never condone what is essentially rape and for you two to imply that my comments on this matter equal such a position is patently absurd.
Whatever you two inferred from my statements is not "concern", some burr is up your saddle and you better get it out
Hmmmm...... I used the word ,"insensitive" and you react in rage saying I accused you of things I did not.
Seems the Burr is your problem, not mine. ^-^
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I know the women who have used the hashtag on my feed and they ALL have been assaulted. One at the age of three.
I don't doubt that. But then again, Monica Lewinsky tweeted #metoo, as well, which ends up making a mockery of it.
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I don't doubt that. But then again, Monica Lewinsky tweeted #metoo, as well, which ends up making a mockery of it.
Lewinsky makes a mockery of pretty much everything. :shrug:
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Lewinsky makes a mockery of pretty much everything. :shrug:
One thing I want to say, is while I was kind of harsh on some of the women, my real ire is directed at the actors and male Hollywood hotshots, they knew. And we have slime like Tarantino now whining that he should have done more........gee, ya think?
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One thing I want to say, is while I was kind of harsh on some of the women, my real ire is directed at the actors and male Hollywood hotshots, they knew. And we have slime like Tarantino now whining that he should have done more........gee, ya think?
It's certainly a difficult and complicated situation. What exactly can a person do? Even now I have doubts that much of anything will change or that there will be any serious investigation and/or consequences for Weinstein.
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It's certainly a difficult and complicated situation. What exactly can a person do? Even now I have doubts that much of anything will change or that there will be any serious investigation and/or consequences for Weinstein.
I wish Weinstein would sing and tell everything he knows, it's the only way to save his soul.
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It's certainly a difficult and complicated situation.
No it isn't. These "men" are either wusses, or took part in the misogyny.
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No it isn't. These "men" are either wusses, or took part in the misogyny.
Whatev.
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One thing I want to say, is while I was kind of harsh on some of the women, my real ire is directed at the actors and male Hollywood hotshots, they knew. And we have slime like Tarantino now whining that he should have done more........gee, ya think?
I'm in complete agreement with you there. The men who enabled, encouraged, laughed about and covered up these crimes should be strung up. No mercy. They are despicable people, and I hope no one believes their excuses.
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I know the women who have used the hashtag on my feed and they ALL have been assaulted. One at the age of three.
Don't make generalizations.
And I know women on my feed using the #metoo hashtag for things that are not sexual assault. In two cases, not even harassment, just being p#ssed off at a man.
Don't consider your anecdotal evidence any more valid than mine.
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And I know women on my feed using the #metoo hashtag for things that are not sexual assault. In two cases, not even harassment, just being p#ssed off at a man.
Don't consider your anecdotal evidence any more valid than mine.
Ummm............ I didn't. YOU did. :shrug:
(What's with all the defensiveness here? This is clearly a conversation that needs to take place. All sorts of misinformation bouncing about...... )
Just for the record, we have a daughter who works with the victims of sexual predators and trafficking. Her information is much broader than anything that can be labeled "anecdotal." The problem is real, and can't be dismissed cavalierly because of somebody's FB feed.
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I don't give a rat's ass about any of hollywood, frankly. It's filled with scumbags. What did you expect?
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I don't give a rat's ass about any of hollywood, frankly. It's filled with scumbags. What did you expect?
It's the bigger issue that concerns me, not just Hollywood.
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(What's with all the defensiveness here? This is clearly a conversation that needs to take place. All sorts of misinformation bouncing about...... )
Ever since Anita Hill and the "Every woman has a right to be believed" movement got going, life's been pretty tough for innocent people on the business end of an accusation of harassment. It becomes pretty clear the reason for the complaint can be a refusal to promote somebody who thought she deserved it, or even the refusal to give up a parking spot that can lead to an accusation.
What I've described here is a recipe for an imbalance of justice, and in a work environment where nobody has rights, the situation is created where the burden of proof has been reversed: Find yourself accused and it's up to you to prove you're innocent. Often one has to admit to the offense before one can even present a case. That's why you are finding people on this thread being a bit defensive. Hard lessons have been learned.
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Ever since Anita Hill and the "Every woman has a right to be believed" movement got going, life's been pretty tough for innocent people on the business end of an accusation of harassment. It becomes pretty clear the reason for the complaint can be a refusal to promote somebody who thought she deserved it, or even the refusal to give up a parking spot that can lead to an accusation.
What I've described here is a recipe for an imbalance of justice, and in a work environment where nobody has rights, the situation is created where the burden of proof has been reversed: Find yourself accused and it's up to you to prove you're innocent. Often one has to admit to the offense before one can even present a case. That's why you are finding people on this thread being a bit defensive. Hard lessons have been learned.
I don't think the discussion of rampant sexual abuse from those in power is mitigated by liars like Anita Hill.
People can respond with, yes, there are abuses coming from pseudo-victims without being personally defensive and pretending the reality of the situation isn't real.
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I don't think the discussion of rampant sexual abuse from those in power is mitigated by liars like Anita Hill.
People can respond with, yes, there are abuses coming from pseudo-victims without being personally defensive and pretending the reality of the situation isn't real.
I can't disagree with that. But I can't speak for anybody but myself.
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I can't disagree with that. But I can't speak for anybody but myself.
Nor can I. :laugh:
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I am curious whether people equate his alleged rapes, assaults, and harassment, with his propositions, because he's an older, unattractive man. At least one of the actresses interviewed has specifically mentioned his lack of attractiveness, and didn't say he forced himself on her. Obviously, some women have married prosperous older men, so is it a crime for him to merely offer?
I ask, seriously, to gauge thoughts on the topic.
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I am curious whether people equate his alleged rapes, assaults, and harassment, with his propositions, because he's an older, unattractive man. Obviously, some women have married prosperous older men, so is it a crime for him to merely offer?
I ask, seriously, to gauge thoughts on the topic.
You mean propositions to marry, or propositions to bed teen aged girls?
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I am curious whether people equate his alleged rapes, assaults, and harassment, with his propositions, because he's an older, unattractive man. At least one of the actresses interviewed has specifically mentioned his lack of attractiveness, and didn't say he forced himself on her. Obviously, some women have married prosperous older men, so is it a crime for him to merely offer?
I ask, seriously, to gauge thoughts on the topic.
His age and looks do not enter into my opinion on the matter. A mere offer with no recourse if the answer is "no" is fine, as long as the person asked is an adult. An offer with the implication that careers will me made or broken is not fine. Continuing to "offer" after an initial "no" answer is not fine.
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His age and looks do not enter into my opinion on the matter. A mere offer with no recourse if the answer is "no" is fine, as long as the person asked is an adult. An offer with the implication that careers will me made or broken is not fine. Continuing to "offer" after an initial "no" answer is not fine.
IOW, inject some common sense? Stop that!
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His age and looks do not enter into my opinion on the matter. A mere offer with no recourse if the answer is "no" is fine, as long as the person asked is an adult. An offer with the implication that careers will me made or broken is not fine. Continuing to "offer" after an initial "no" answer is not fine.
Good response.
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Good response.
I think so too. Cuts through the BS and says it like it is about what's acceptable, and what's not. The fellow who's the object of this story appears to have violated at least three of @RoosGirl's caveats. Underaged gal (and guys), threats of retaliation and persistence.
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@cammie
I used the #metoo on Facebook and as some people on here, such as @Cyber Liberty can tell you, I was being harassed consistently by a gut at work, and it all boiled down to my breasts were too big for his liking. I got fired because his minority (he was openly gay) trumped my minority (female).
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But...
There's plenty of Weinstein stories here to comment regarding that angle of the story. I thought it more interesting that we have a Dem woman making the statement that certain victims were as much to blame as their attackers because of the way they dressed or acted.
Imagine my surprise that we have men and women here agreeing with her. I certainly understand that it has become a weapon for some women to falsely accuse men of inappropriate behavior, but y'all menfolk want to get your shorts in a bunch about something, get them in a bunch about what would have happened if a Repub man had said that.
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@cammie
I used the #metoo on Facebook and as some people on here, such as @Cyber Liberty can tell you, I was being harassed consistently by a gut at work, and it all boiled down to my breasts were too big for his liking. I got fired because his minority (he was openly gay) trumped my minority (female).
I don't think many men have any idea how horrible it is for women to be harassed by men at their workplace.
Did you file a suit because you were fired? Seems like you would win in ANY court in the land....
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@cammie
I used the #metoo on Facebook and as some people on here, such as @Cyber Liberty can tell you, I was being harassed consistently by a gut at work, and it all boiled down to my breasts were too big for his liking. I got fired because his minority (he was openly gay) trumped my minority (female).
Yeah, that situation really pissed me off. I couldn't do anything to help you out except tell you it's not your fault (It wasn't). And, considering the guy's complaint about you, I naturally assumed he must be gay or something. :shrug:
I hope you're doing something more to your liking now...
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But...
There's plenty of Weinstein stories here to comment regarding that angle of the story. I thought it more interesting that we have a Dem woman making the statement that certain victims were as much to blame as their attackers because of the way they dressed or acted.
Imagine my surprise that we have men and women here agreeing with her. I certainly understand that it has become a weapon for some women to falsely accuse men of inappropriate behavior, but y'all menfolk want to get your shorts in a bunch about something, get them in a bunch about what would have happened if a Repub man had said that.
There are no greater hypocrites than leftists (men or women) when it comes to actual rights for women (or blacks).
That's why Hollywood is such a glaring example of REAL sexism and racism. And that's why the entire leftist cabal circle the wagons to protect them.
Obama and Clinton are good buddies with this gang, and they don't give a rip what happens to female children on set.
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I am curious whether people equate his alleged rapes, assaults, and harassment, with his propositions, because he's an older, unattractive man. At least one of the actresses interviewed has specifically mentioned his lack of attractiveness, and didn't say he forced himself on her. Obviously, some women have married prosperous older men, so is it a crime for him to merely offer?
I ask, seriously, to gauge thoughts on the topic.
Weinstein wasn't offering these women/girls a marriage proposal @Suppressed He wasn't even offering a dinner invitation.
He never really asked anything .... because he made it known that "no" was not an option.
What Weinstein did was abuse his power in the most debased way humanly possible. Don't confuse a girl's reluctant acceptance that he was holding her future in his hands with consent.
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There are no greater hypocrites than leftists (men or women) when it comes to actual rights for women (or blacks).
That's why Hollywood is such a glaring example of REAL sexism and racism. And that's why the entire leftist cabal circle the wagons to protect them.
Obama and Clinton are good buddies with this gang, and they don't give a rip what happens to female children on set.
(https://i.imgur.com/Km4FUPJ.jpg)
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There's a significant difference between taking offense at "every little word" and responding to words that are legitimately offensive.
That's what has happened here, and IMO, it has led to some healthy discussion that needs to take place.
@Cyber Liberty
@musiclady
BS...I was smeared like I was some kind of sexual predation advocate because a couple of members seem to have some kind of agenda. I have yet to see one of these actually respond and provide some kind of substantiation to their accusations against me or remove me from their broad brushed smear.
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I don't believe I'd ever heard of this guy Weinstein before this (so-called) "scandal" broke. I haven't really been paying much attention to it. I guess he's someone important out in Movieland... a producer? a financier? I couldn't tell you 'cuz I don't even know.
But it ain't nuthin' new here, folks.
Aspiring beauties have been making use of "the casting couch" since Hollywood began.
They usually have "a choice" as to how to behave on it. Some choose one way, others a different way.
It's a part of that business, I suppose. And it's going to remain so as long as that business goes on.
So.. why all the attention to Mr. Weinstein, other than that he's the "heel de jour"...?
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Please, feel free to continue agreeing with the dumbass Dem Rep.
@RoosGirl
And please feel free to continue in making baseless allegations against my position on your initial baseless smear.
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Hmmmm...... I used the word ,"insensitive" and you react in rage saying I accused you of things I did not.
Seems the Burr is your problem, not mine. ^-^
@musiclady
"rage"? I think not...the sensitive ones are those smearing members with allegations of condoning sexual predation. I did nothing of the kind. If you expect me to sit idly by or remain silent while my reputation is smeared with baseless allegations, that is something that ain't gonna happen.
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IOW, inject some common sense? Stop that!
@Cyber Liberty
"common sense"? Hmmm...I think that statement is what has gotten me smeared as some kind of advocate of sexual predators...tread lightly my friend.
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@RoosGirl
And please feel free to continue in making baseless allegations against my position on your initial baseless smear.
So this quote of yours:
Uh oh...she made a statement loaded with common sense. :nono:
Going to be interesting to see how the snowflakes and SJW's respond... :pondering:
means you disagree with the Dem Rep? That's an odd way to show disagreement.
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@Cyber Liberty
"common sense"? Hmmm...I think that statement is what has gotten me smeared as some kind of advocate of sexual predators...tread lightly my friend.
No one is "smearing" anyone, dear one, and no one called you an advocate of sexual predators. SHEESH!
You made a statement about "common sense" coming from a liberal nutcase, and others disagreed.
If you can't handle it, maybe you shouldn't post on a grown up forum.
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So this quote of yours:
means you disagree with the Dem Rep? That's an odd way to show disagreement.
Actually, he called the SJW's words "common sense."
And can't seem to come to grips with others' disagreement with his bizarre agreement with a leftist fruitcake. :shrug:
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I really want to just pop off a post but I'm going to make myself read this thread from the beginning...
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Actually, he called the SJW's words "common sense."
And can't seem to come to grips with others' disagreement with his bizarre agreement with a leftist fruitcake. :shrug:
"bizarre"? What she initially said was correct...women who dress and behave provocatively in pursuing some male in power bear some responsibility in what happens. WTF is so "bizarre" about that? Sheesh, you really are doubling or tripling down...
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"bizarre"? What she initially said was correct...women who dress and behave provocatively in pursuing some male in power bear some responsibility in what happens. WTF is so "bizarre" about that? Sheesh, you really are doubling or tripling down...
The worst thing that anyone said about you is that you were "insensitive."
Get a grip.
I'm doubling down on calm, rational comments while your blood pressure elevates in self-defense of what no one said.
You don't need to defend your honor when no one has besmirched your good name.
We just disagree with your agreement with a liberal fruitcake, and I personally think you're insensitive to women who have been abused.
Deal with it.
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"bizarre"? What she initially said was correct...women who dress and behave provocatively in pursuing some male in power bear some responsibility in what happens. WTF is so "bizarre" about that? Sheesh, you really are doubling or tripling down...
I'm really confused now, because first you said I had a baseless allegation that you agreed with the Dem Rep, and now you're saying you agree with the Dem Rep?
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No one is "smearing" anyone, dear one, and no one called you an advocate of sexual predators. SHEESH!
You made a statement about "common sense" coming from a liberal nutcase, and others disagreed.
If you can't handle it, maybe you shouldn't post on a grown up forum.
@musiclady
It is you and one other who seem to have some "issue" with my posts...I can handle it, thus my refutations in an open forum of being broad brushed. I'm not going to stand for it. Personal responsibility is the basis for my original comment/post. Some folks don't seem capable of grasping that simplistic concept.
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I'm really confused now, because first you said I had a baseless allegation that you agreed with the Dem Rep, and now you're saying you agree with the Dem Rep?
You started this garbage in post #7.
Not buying what you're trying to "sell". Go back and read from the beginning. Comprehension is your friend, or maybe not.
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@musiclady
It is you and one other who seem to have some "issue" with my posts...I can handle it, thus my refutations in an open forum of being broad brushed. I'm not going to stand for it. Personal responsibility is the basis for my original comment/post. Some folks don't seem capable of grasping that simplistic concept.
You're making up the smearing, and the rest.
We DISAGREE with you.
Go back and read the words, and give your self-defense mechanism a rest.
There's nothing here for you to defend other than an opinion that some of us disagree with.
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You started this garbage in post #7.
Not buying what you're trying to "sell". Go back and read from the beginning. Comprehension is your friend, or maybe not.
What does post #7 have to do with you?
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The worst thing that anyone said about you is that you were "insensitive."
Get a grip.
I'm doubling down on calm, rational comments while your blood pressure elevates in self-defense of what no one said.
You don't need to defend your honor when no one has besmirched your good name.
We just disagree with your agreement with a liberal fruitcake, and I personally think you're insensitive to women who have been abused.
Deal with it.
And you have come to this simplistic conclusion because I appear to have found some agreement with a liberal based on what she's said? Words fail. I don't think there's anything I can say or post to you to change your simplistic and ignorant assumption of me now, so fare thee well.
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And you have come to this simplistic conclusion because I appear to have found some agreement with a liberal based on what she's said? Words fail. I don't think there's anything I can say or post to you to change your simplistic and ignorant assumption of me now, so fare thee well.
Actually, I'm glad you're leaving.
Your emotions have gotten the best of you, and you're making no sense in a common sense, objective world.
Maybe you can come back calmer, and we can have a serious discussion of the real issue.......... not just your hurt feelings.
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I really want to just pop off a post but I'm going to make myself read this thread from the beginning...
Are you drooling with glazed over eyes yet? :)
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Are you drooling with glazed over eyes yet? :)
@RoosGirl
Lol, more like frantic because I'm afraid there's gonna be a lock on this thing by the time I get to it.
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Takes two to tango.
This isn't like when a family member abuses a person. These women had a choice...Ok, so maybe they wouldn't have their precious little acting career. But all they did was to make sure in the future that others would have to put out to get the roles, and now that they made their millions, ooooh now they're so brave.....Gag me.
@dfwgator
Right, it was all a game and those women didn't need to eat.
If this is your logic, I was to blame every time a guy at work followed me into rooms and backed me into the corner. I should have just quit!
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If only one of these actresses decided that their precious little acting career wasn't worth it and walked away and took down Harvey a long time ago, many others would have been spared.
But now that they have their "FU Money", now they can be "brave" and come out against Weinstein.
@dfwgator
I love the way you keep calling their livelihoods "precious little careers." I wonder if you would denigrate a man's career in that manner. Or if you'd walk away so easily from a job you needed.
I know the answer in both cases.
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It is also possible to want something so badly that your good judgement is impaired by it.
@Bigun
Or to need a job so you can feed yourself.
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So we're back to my original statement, some woman magically shows up in front of a man and is naked and it's fine for the man to do whatever he wants.
@RoosGirl
The old boy attitude about this still exists. I found out last fall when Trump's p- grabbing tape came out. I received headpats from a few here and was told now, now, sweetie, there are more important things to worry about.
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@Bigun
Or to need a job so you can feed yourself.
What does it change either way. Somehow I don't think these women couldn't have found a way to feed themselves outside the bright lights of tinsel town.
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@dfwgator
I wonder if you would denigrate a man's career in that manner.
If they are an actor, yes.
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Don't these women have agents? Why wouldn't they insist that their agent sit in with them, so they weren't alone with Weinstein? I don't want to excuse Weinstein, that never was my intent. But it just seems to me there were some things that could have been done to diffuse what you call the "power situation."
@dfwgator
I read an article today in which one of Weinstein's victims went into detail about her dealings with him. He had a system down. If a woman showed resistance to any attempts at familiarity, he would back off and take his time. She would receive invitations to screenings or business meetings with her agent or whomever. Professional, polite. And it stayed that way for a while.
Then, when she had been lulled into a false sense of security--- figuring she had overreacted, or imagined it, or blaming herself as women do---a casual, offhand invitation would be made to her alone, in a private place, just for a quick meeting.
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I don't see anyone on this thread alleging that sexual assault or harassment by Weinstein or anyone else was in anyway ok, but when anyone is in a harassment (as opposed to forcible rape or assault) situation, they have a choice to walk away, despite the costs to their career.
There is so much consensual transactional sex in the entertainment industry (sexual favors for career advancement) that until that is considered unthinkable by *all* women, those women who won't engage in it are going to be at a disadvantage in their careers AND men in the industry are being conditioned to think that there's a good chance they'll get some in return for career advancement. That doesn't make any of what Harvey Weinstein did right, that doesn't make any of the women who were attacked, harassed, or otherwise abused by him at fault, but we need to acknowledge that they were victimized primarily by Weinstein and secondarily by culture in the entertainment industry created by those women in the industry who believe "sex is one of the weapons in my arsenal for career advancement."
It's also a little disturbing that a few of the women who are coming out are using Weinstein's physical grotesqueness as one of their primary talking points (i.e. "he looked like Jabba the Hutt"). That reads dangerously like a primary objection to his behavior comes from how he looked, not because they are objecting to the behavior qua behavior. It reads like transactional sex would have been ok if he were better looking. And that's a huge problem in and of itself.
Those who are saying on this thread that "maybe they wouldn't have gotten their career, but they DID have a choice" are also correct regarding those who were not physically assaulted by Weinstein (i.e. the requested massages, him taking off his clothes, etc). If he wasn't engaging in forcible action - and he seems not to have engaged in that in all of his sexually harassing interactions -- a lot of women were in a position where they did have a choice to walk away, to tell him off, to go to the police, to not put up with it. Yeah, maybe it would have cost them their career, and that's why it is so dicey to report sexual harassment. But they did have a choice, and a lot of them decided their shot at stardom was more important than (1) protecting other women from this behavior or (2) trying to get justice for themselves.
So yes, Harvey is the wrongdoer in a civil and criminal sense, and no one who was assaulted or harassed should be blamed for BEING assaulted or harassed, but blame can attach (1) to the things people who were harassed or assaulted chose to do (or not do) after the fact, although that would require that we know their motives for staying silent (i.e. if it's trauma and fear, that's one thing; if it's "I decided my career was more important than reporting" then, yeah, part of the problem and is a blameworthy thing) and (2) to anyone who engages in transactional sex to further their career, because that creates a culture where it's expected.
@cammie
Yes, the women had a choice to walk away. They didn't, and they are not at fault. Not a bit. The fault lies with the disgusting toad who abused them (I have no problem at all mocking his appearance).
You're wrong about Weinstein not using force. He's been accused of rape by more than one woman.
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@dfwgator
I love the way you keep calling their livelihoods "precious little careers." I wonder if you would denigrate a man's career in that manner. Or if you'd walk away so easily from a job you needed.
And by the way, indeed there is a gay casting couch in Hollywood, too. So yes, I would denigrate their career in that manner, too.
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I am curious whether people equate his alleged rapes, assaults, and harassment, with his propositions, because he's an older, unattractive man. At least one of the actresses interviewed has specifically mentioned his lack of attractiveness, and didn't say he forced himself on her. Obviously, some women have married prosperous older men, so is it a crime for him to merely offer?
I ask, seriously, to gauge thoughts on the topic.
@Suppressed
No, I don't at all equate a proposition or an invitation with harassment --if that's where it ends.
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@cammie
Yes, the women had a choice to walk away. They didn't, and they are not at fault. Not a bit. The fault lies with the tei toad who abused them (I have no problem at all mocking his appearance).
You're wrong about Weinstein not using force. He's been accused of rape by more than one woman.
@CatherineofAragon
Now I'm going to ask you a question I asked early on on this thread and got no answer. What should society do to protect women who refuse to walk away from such situations from slugs such as Weinstein?
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What does it change either way. Somehow I don't think these women couldn't have found a way to feed themselves outside the bright lights of tinsel town.
@Bigun
Maybe. Maybe not. Not my place to judge.
I do know that acting pays more than food service work, which is what actors do until a tiny minority break out.
I also know that it wouldn't be a snap decision for any of us to quit a lucrative job for one that isn't, so I'm not going to push that kind of simplistic false reasoning off on those women.
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@CatherineofAragon
Now I'm going to ask you a question I asked early on on this thread and got no answer. What should society do to protect women who refuse to walk away from such situations from slugs such as Weinstein?
@Bigun
"Refuse to walk away"
You did receive a response, and it was a good one.
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@Bigun
"Refuse to walk away"
You did receive a response, and it was a good one.
@CatherineofAragon
No I didn't. If i did I missed it. Would you be so kind as to refresh my memory?
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And by the way, indeed there is a gay casting couch in Hollywood, too. So yes, I would denigrate their career in that manner, too.
@dfwgator
Okay. How about this, though--- we save the denigration for the abuser instead of the victim.
You never did respond when I asked you if I had a part in being sexually harassed. Was it partially my fault for not quitting my job ? If not, why was my situation different?
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@CatherineofAragon
No I didn't. If i did I missed it. Would you be so kind as to refresh my memory?
@Bigun
You missed it, and I wasn't the one who posted it.
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@dfwgator
Okay. How about this, though--- we save the denigration for the abuser instead of the victim.
You never did respond when I asked you if I had a part in being sexually harassed. Was it partially my fault for not quitting my job ? If not, why was my situation different?
I wasn't there, so I don't know the particular circumstances of your employer. Now I know most companies do have procedures in place that allow you to report these kinds of incidents.
And you know that Hollywood bears little resemblance to the rest of the world.
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@Bigun
You missed it, and I wasn't the one who posted it.
@CatherineofAragon
Ok. I missed it. Since you remember it so well I ask again if you would be so kind as to refresh my memory?
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I wasn't there, so I don't know the particular circumstances of your employer. Now I know most companies do have procedures in place that allow you to report these kinds of incidents.
And you know that Hollywood bears little resemblance to the rest of the world.
@dfwgator
The principle is the same, though. I was harassed, I put up with it, I didn't report it, and I didn't quit. So I must be partially to blame that it continued?
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@dfwgator
The principle is the same, though. I was harassed, I put up with it, I didn't report it, and I didn't quit. So I must be partially to blame that it continued?
So how then would you suggest stopping it? If nobody reports it, how would anybody be able to take the necessary action. I don't want to use the word "blame" here, but seriously, what do you want?
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@dfwgator
The principle is the same, though. I was harassed, I put up with it, I didn't report it, and I didn't quit. So I must be partially to blame that it continued?
I don't know, but if you ever need a job give me a call. I'm tired of broads who work for me suing because I grab their asses.
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I don't know, but if you ever need a job give me a call. I'm tired of broads who work for me suing because I grab their asses.
We know. You like it when they fight back.
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We know. You like it when they fight back.
Well we know what happened that brief time you worked for me.....I had to sue you.
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Well we know what happened that brief time you worked for me.....I had to sue you.
Bitch please.
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Please don't squeeze the Charmin.
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Hollywood is a cesspool for the most part. If someone wants to pursue a career in it it is highly unlikely they will rise to the top without swimming deeply in it. There are exceptions but they're rare and getting rarer.
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So how then would you suggest stopping it? If nobody reports it, how would anybody be able to take the necessary action. I don't want to use the word "blame" here, but seriously, what do you want?
@dfwgator
I didn't say I put up with it forever. It came to an end because I got angry instead of intimidated at being cornered once too often and blocked from moving with the guy's body. He stopped because he didn't want a certain part of his anatomy kicked up around his neck, which is what I told him would happen. Or I would have tried my damndest to scratch out an eye or take some flesh off his face, had things become violent. He wanted a quick, easy way to get off with a scared female who would keep quiet. He didn't want trouble.
A woman I had confided in ended up telling my male boss what happened, and he was appalled. He kept saying to me, "Why didn't you tell me? I can't believe you didn't tell me."
Honestly I don't know why I didn't, because he was a great boss who was genuinely protective of women ---a quality that's mouthed by some conservative men. I did have the feeling that HR might somehow get the idea I was a troublemaker, because the guy who was after me could talk his way out of anything.
Women tend to shift part of the blame onto themselves, even though it makes no sense to do so. And it sure as hell doesn't help matters when people react with, "It takes two to tango", as though sexual harassment is a dinner date. That's just stupid, no matter how you look at it.
See, I had a supportive boss I could have gone to, like I said, and I got angry at the harasser. But other women's circumstances aren't the same. If I had been very young, or if it had been my boss backing me against the wall, I don't know how I would have reacted. Maybe the same, or maybe not. At the time I needed that job. Walking away from a job is easy only for armchair pontificators who are removed from the situation.
You really want to know how to help? Stop doing what you're doing. When a woman comes out with a story of being harassed, stop knee jerking that oh, well, it's partially her fault because she didn't speak up. I don't mean that we shouldn't let the legal process play out or that we should assume that every man is guilty---I know there are women who fabricate charges. I'm saying stop blaming women when some pig harasses them, because even though you don't want to use the word, that's what you're doing.
Remember how some of y'all reacted when Gretchen Carlson opened up about her harassment? She was asked in an interview, "Why didn't you come forward sooner?" Her reply---"Look at the response now. That's why."
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I don't know, but if you ever need a job give me a call. I'm tired of broads who work for me suing because I grab their asses.
@Frank Cannon
Lol, Frank, you're gonna rescind that offer when you read how it went.
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Hollywood is a cesspool for the most part. If someone wants to pursue a career in it it is highly unlikely they will rise to the top without swimming deeply in it. There are exceptions but they're rare and getting rarer.
Whoop! There it tis!
You dive into a cesspool you should expect to get some s&*% on you!
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@dfwgator
You really want to know how to help? Stop doing what you're doing. When a woman comes out with a story of being harassed, stop knee jerking that oh, well, it's partially her fault because she didn't speak up. I don't mean that we shouldn't let the legal process play out or that we should assume that every man is guilty---I know there are women who fabricate charges. I'm saying stop blaming women when some pig harasses them, because even though you don't want to use the word, that's what you're doing.
And then the moment we do that, here comes an Anita Hill-type.
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No woman (or man) should be raped. Ever.
Slut shaming is horrible. When it happened to me in college I was told it was my fault because I was wearing a mini skirt.
I was 21 and naive and I believed the campus police when I told these m this even though they could see my clothes were ripped and something happened.
I carried it with me for years, never wore a skirt for the next decade and to this day, never wore a pink sweater or shirt which is my favorite color, again.I finally found a therapist about 15 years later who helped me with this.
Now regarding the Weinstein brothers, give them a trial and if it's true throw the book at them. As for the actresses, I'm sorry this happened to them. It shouldn't have. It takes courage to come out and maybe their stories can help other women in the future.
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You mean propositions to marry, or propositions to bed teen aged girls?
Neither. Propositions to bed legal women.
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No woman (or man) should be raped. Ever.
Slut shaming is horrible. When it happened to me in college I was told it was my fault because I was wearing a mini skirt.
I was 21 and naive and I believed the campus police when I told these m this even though they could see my clothes were ripped and something happened.
I carried it with me for years, never wore a skirt for the next decade and to this day, never wore a pink sweater or shirt which is my favorite color, again.I finally found a therapist about 15 years later who helped me with this.
Now regarding the Weinstein brothers, give them a trial and if it's true throw the book at them. As for the actresses, I'm sorry this happened to them. It shouldn't have. It takes courage to come out and maybe their stories can help other women in the future.
I'm truly sorry that such a thing happened to you @Freya! I'm fully with you on punishing all of these malfeasant bastards to the fullest extent of the law!
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No woman (or man) should be raped. Ever.
Slut shaming is horrible. When it happened to me in college I was told it was my fault because I was wearing a mini skirt.
I was 21 and naive and I believed the campus police when I told these m this even though they could see my clothes were ripped and something happened.
I carried it with me for years, never wore a skirt for the next decade and to this day, never wore a pink sweater or shirt which is my favorite color, again.I finally found a therapist about 15 years later who helped me with this.
Now regarding the Weinstein brothers, give them a trial and if it's true throw the book at them. As for the actresses, I'm sorry this happened to them. It shouldn't have. It takes courage to come out and maybe their stories can help other women in the future.
THANK you for sharing that, @Freya ! Your case, unfortunately is typical, and the scars you bear are borne by far too many women. Fortunately, women now are taken more seriously, and offered counseling from the get go.
If you had had that (and been BELIEVED), it would have saved you years of anguish.
I'm SO sorry this happened to you, and am thankful you are a survivor.
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Thank you @Bigun and @musiclady
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I'm not offended! Not at all! I'm just not governed by emotion. Most men aren't.
Actually, that's another discussion entirely.
I've found on these kinds of forums that the men are easily as emotional as the women........ sometimes more.
But since that has absolutely NOTHING to do with rape and its victims, there's no need to belabor the point.
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And then the moment we do that, here comes an Anita Hill-type.
@dfwgator
Lol, well then, I guess the only option is to keep blaming women, then!
I'll say it again: this is why I refuse to defend conservative men anymore, whether it's to a feminist or anyone else.
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@dfwgator
Lol, well then, I guess the only option is to keep blaming women, then!
I'll say it again: this is why I refuse to defend conservative men anymore, whether it's to a feminist or anyone else.
The OBVIOUS choice is to blame all women for assaults because of what Anita Hill did to Clarence Thomas.... *****rollingeyes*****
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The OBVIOUS choice is to blame all women for assaults because of what Anita Hill did to Clarence Thomas.... *****rollingeyes*****
Let's refocus...
Anita Hill was highly tangential to the subject, even when that happened. She was being a Tool of the Democrats and their propaganda arm, the Press. Her allegations would have been laughed out of a court, and she knew it, but the Craps where looking for something, anything to stop that nomination. I only brought it up because a very nasty side effect occurred because of that event, the burden of proof was changed in many instances, (mainly in the corporate world where normal rules of evidence don't apply) to where guilt is assumed and innocence must be proved.
This thread is about a Democrat Representative, Eddie Bernice Johnson, who attempted to bring up the age-old rapists' defense of "She asked for it." Again, a tool is being used by the Democrats and their propaganda arm, the Press. It's not going to work this time, there are too many sympathetic figures. Underage victims, for starters.
That there were also a bunch of willing "victims" who were happy to go along because it got them acting gigs just clouds the issue. You can bet Weinswine's attorneys are going to play them to the hilt (along with the Democrats and their propaganda arm, the Press). Meanwhile adults who really were victims of Weinswine will be pushed aside, and that's the tragedy that will play out here.
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@dfwgator
Lol, well then, I guess the only option is to keep blaming women, then!
I'll say it again: this is why I refuse to defend conservative men anymore, whether it's to a feminist or anyone else.
So you believed Anita Hill? Your position is just the other extreme, opposite of always blaming the victim.
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Quote from: Bigun on October 19, 2017, 07:47:44 PM
There are lots of bad men in this world. That is an absolute fact. How would you suggest young women be protected from them?
@musiclady responds:
Prosecuting them.
But then, we have this glaring example of Bill Clinton, rapist, sexual predator, who is walking free....
So I'd say, every little girl needs to learn to defend herself physically. And be given enough self-confidence to walk away, and report it to the police when a boss or powerful man abuses them.
I agree with every bit of that! Now for the third time on this thread, what do we do when the woman finding herself in such a situation REFUSES to walk away? How do we protect them in that crcumstance?
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Quote from: Bigun on October 19, 2017, 07:47:44 PM
@musiclady responds:
I agree with every bit of that! Now for the third time on this thread, what do we do when the woman finding herself in such a situation REFUSES to walk away? How do we protect them in that crcumstance?
If she is refusing to walk away, and she is under age (as many of these victims are), then he is still guilty of statutory rape. We can't protect her beforehand if she doesn't have the self worth or understanding to walk away, but we can still get justice for her after the fact.
If it's an adult and she doesn't refuse, and is willing, then she's not a victim.
But no one here was claiming those women were.
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If she is refusing to walk away, and she is under age (as many of these victims are), then he is still guilty of statutory rape. We can't protect her beforehand if she doesn't have the self worth or understanding to walk away, but we can still get justice for her after the fact.
If it's an adult and she doesn't refuse, and is willing, then she's not a victim.
But no one here was claiming those women were.
Exactly. There were a lot of women who were willing to take up with Weinswine because they got something of value from the relationship, and are going to cloud this issue greatly as the legal cases against Weinswine unfold. Half of them are going to change their minds to declare themselves victims to justify the deals they made with the Devil. A lot of those #metoo tags are #FOS.
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If she is refusing to walk away, and she is under age (as many of these victims are), then he is still guilty of statutory rape. We can't protect her beforehand if she doesn't have the self worth or understanding to walk away, but we can still get justice for her after the fact.
If it's an adult and she doesn't refuse, and is willing, then she's not a victim.
But no one here was claiming those women were.
OK! Now we are getting somewhere! There is nothing in your post that I would disagree with! Not a word. But victims are going to HAVE to come forward and testify for justice to be done. It won't work any other way!
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OK! Now we are getting somewhere! There is nothing in your post that I would disagree with! Not a word. But victims are going to HAVE to come forward and testify for justice to be done. It won't work any other way!
There will also be a lot of fake victims too, and that will make the legitimate cases more difficult.
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Exactly. There were a lot of women who were willing to take up with Weinswine because they got something of value from the relationship, and are going to cloud this issue greatly as the legal cases against Weinswine unfold. Half of them are going to change their minds to declare themselves victims to justify the deals they made with the Devil. A lot of those #metoo tags are #FOS.
Absolutely no argument from me.
Liberal women are just as deceitful and underhanded as liberal men are.
I still don't know if the dingbat rep was told to do this for attention, or if she's really this sexist and stupid....
Or both. :shrug:
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I still don't know if the dingbat rep was told to do this for attention, or if she's really this sexist and stupid....
Or both. :shrug:
I vote the latter. She isn't serving the interests of any of the powers that be, what she said is just as destructive to them.
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Exactly. There were a lot of women who were willing to take up with Weinswine because they got something of value from the relationship, and are going to cloud this issue greatly as the legal cases against Weinswine unfold. Half of them are going to change their minds to declare themselves victims to justify the deals they made with the Devil. A lot of those #metoo tags are #FOS.
Absolutely right! I strongly suspect that in many cases the lust for the shiny object overcame the will to resist the immorality the moment involved!
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OK! Now we are getting somewhere! There is nothing in your post that I would disagree with! Not a word. But victims are going to HAVE to come forward and testify for justice to be done. It won't work any other way!
Nothing I said in that post differed from anything I've said before.
I hope that all the attention this creep's crimes are getting makes young women (and girls) bolder, and more willing to stick their necks out (and get raped all over again in some ways) to press charges.
As I have said all along, it takes tremendous courage to speak out about the sexual aggression and assaults from a man in power.
I hope more have the courage and strength it takes.
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Nothing I said in that post differed from anything I've said before.
I hope that all the attention this creep's crimes are getting makes young women (and girls) bolder, and more willing to stick their necks out (and get raped all over again in some ways) to press charges.
As I have said all along, it takes tremendous courage to speak out about the sexual aggression and assaults from a man in power.
I hope more have the courage and strength it takes.
So I guess we have been talking past each other for most of this thread because I COMPLETELY agree with that!
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Absolutely right! I strongly suspect that in many cases the lust for the shiny object overcame the will to resist the immorality the moment involved!
That's why a lot of failed starlets simply become prostitutes after failing to get those shiny objects from the likes of Weinswine. They figure they may as well get paid upfront in cash for what they were willing to trade off for the "Big Break." Mrs. Liberty was raised in SoCal, and knew lots of Hollywood types, and she tells me that's a common career move.
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So I guess we have been talking past each other for most of this thread because I COMPLETELY agree with that!
Y'all are just finally talking about the same thing. You can go back to the beginning of the thread and see that there are some people who were intent on agreeing with the Dem Rep that women who dressed slutty or acted a certain way bore some of the blame if they were sexually abused.
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So I guess we have been talking past each other for most of this thread because I COMPLETELY agree with that!
I've been following this thread, and you aren't the only people who have been talking past each other....
Good to see you guys caught on.
:beer:
:beer:
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Y'all are just finally talking about the same thing. You can go back to the beginning of the thread and see that there are some people who were intent on agreeing with the Dem Rep that women who dressed slutty or acted a certain way bore some of the blame if they were sexually abused.
I saw that too, and I was as disappointed as y'all.
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@dfwgator
So you believed Anita Hill?
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/l2RaPhzQeY4ODghNK/giphy.gif)
Your position is just the other extreme, opposite of always blaming the victim.
Did you miss this in one of my posts to you? Conveniently, I guess?
I don't mean that we shouldn't let the legal process play out or that we should assume that every man is guilty---I know there are women who fabricate charges.
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Absolutely right! I strongly suspect that in many cases the lust for the shiny object overcame the will to resist the immorality the moment involved!
@Bigun
And I maintain that it's easy to sit behind a keyboard and pretend we know all about every woman's circumstance, whether or not she was underage.
If a woman felt that giving in to Weinstein was the only way she could keep her job, he is still the bad guy here, and I will not paint every woman who did that as a greedy whore who was willing to do anything for money. What if she had kids to support? What if it was do this to keep a lucrative job or bend to this predator's will so I don't have to go back to scrapping for money?
Weinstein is still the bad guy. Don't lose sight of that.
You keep claiming no one answered your question about what should be done. You've been answered three times now. I echoed the initial answer in one of my posts to @dfwgator. The thing is, it isn't what youi want to hear.
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@dfwgator
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/l2RaPhzQeY4ODghNK/giphy.gif)
Did you miss this in one of my posts to you? Conveniently, I guess?
I don't mean that we shouldn't let the legal process play out or that we should assume that every man is guilty---I know there are women who fabricate charges.
So what's the problem? All I've been trying to say all along is that if we really want these incidents to stop, women have to be smarter about these things, it doesn't excuse Weinstein one bit. But you're just not going to wish these monsters away.
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I don't mean that we shouldn't let the legal process play out or that we should assume that every man is guilty---I know there are women who fabricate charges.
We are about to see a lot of that as the charges against Weinswine play out. Watch for it. Don't believe every woman claiming rape or harassment that are coming out of the woodwork, Weinswine and the company he founded have deep pockets.
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OK! Now we are getting somewhere! There is nothing in your post that I would disagree with! Not a word. But victims are going to HAVE to come forward and testify for justice to be done. It won't work any other way!
@Bigun
And just like Gretchen Carlson noted, women will continue with their reluctance to come forward as long as people shame them and call them money-grubbers and demand to know why they didn't speak up sooner.
If you want them to come forward, examine how you react to the situation.
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We are about to see a lot of that as the charges against Weinswine play out. Watch for it. Don't believe every woman claiming rape or harassment that are coming out of the woodwork, Weinswine and the company he founded have deep pockets.
@Cyber Liberty
Don't know why you assume I do.
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So what's the problem? All I've been trying to say all along is that if we really want these incidents to stop, women have to be smarter about these things, it doesn't excuse Weinstein one bit. But you're just not going to wish these monsters away.
@dfwgator
See? Women just aren't smart enough to handle sexual harassment. They should take tips from keyboard warriors.
As long as your attitude remains the same, women will continue their reluctance to speak up.
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So what's the problem? All I've been trying to say all along is that if we really want these incidents to stop, women have to be smarter about these things, it doesn't excuse Weinstein one bit. But you're just not going to wish these monsters away.
And who, exactly, even remotely implied that he or she thought these evil beasts could be "wished away?"
We would all love for 15 or 16 year old girls to be "smarter" about these things (and everything), but even in saying that, you seem to be implying that if these kids were more savvy that what happened to them would not have happened.
What we NEED to do, is put all these predators away. They need to be arrested, tried, convicted and punished.
And their victims should NOT be blamed because they weren't "smart enough" to keep the rape from happening.
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@Cyber Liberty
Don't know why you assume I do.
@CatherineofAragon
That was just mean. I never said I assume you do. **nononono*
(You know me better than that.)
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@Bigun
And I maintain that it's easy to sit behind a keyboard and pretend we know all about every woman's circumstance, whether or not she was underage.
If a woman felt that giving in to Weinstein was the only way she could keep her job, he is still the bad guy here, and I will not paint every woman who did that as a greedy whore who was willing to do anything for money. What if she had kids to support? What if it was do this to keep a lucrative job or bend to this predator's will so I don't have to go back to scrapping for money?
Weinstein is still the bad guy. Don't lose sight of that.
You keep claiming no one answered your question about what should be done. You've been answered three times now. I echoed the initial answer in one of my posts to @dfwgator. The thing is, it isn't what youi want to hear.
Look @CatherineofAragon, I took the time to go back through the thread this morning because I felt it incumbent on me to do so and have resolved the controversy to my satisfaction.
There is NOTHING anyone can do to protect a women from slugs like Wienstein if the women chooses to participate regardless of her motivation for doing so!
Have a nice rest of your day!
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@dfwgator
See? Women just aren't smart enough to handle sexual harassment. They should take tips from keyboard warriors.
As long as your attitude remains the same, women will continue their reluctance to speak up.
Exactly right.
This is the response that men (and unfortunately some women) have had for eons, and one of the reasons that women and girls are so stinking afraid to make the charges.
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We would all love for 15 or 16 year old girls to be "smarter" about these things (and everything), but even in saying that, you seem to be implying that if these kids were more savvy that what happened to them would not have happened.
In some cases, yes. But here is the bigger issue, Where were their parents?
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What we NEED to do, is put all these predators away. They need to be arrested, tried, convicted and punished.
I wish I had a magic wand I could wave and make it so. So if you want actually want this to happen, then it will take women being smarter to make that happen. And law enforcement needs to do a better job of backing up those women who indeed are brave enough to come out against these monsters.
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Look @CatherineofAragon, I took the time to go back through the thread this morning because I felt it incumbent on me to do so and have resolved the controversy to my satisfaction.
There is NOTHING anyone can do to protect a women from slugs like Wienstein if the women chooses to participate regardless of her motivation for doing so!
Have a nice rest of your day!
Aren't we talking about the women who did NOT choose to participate?
I don't agree with your doomsday attitude, Bigun. SOMETHING can be done, and it actually IS being done.
In spite of this dimwitted Democrat who's blaming the girls for Weinstein's evil.
When more people have the courage to speak up, things DO happen.
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Aren't we talking about the women who did NOT choose to participate?
I don't agree with your doomsday attitude, Bigun. SOMETHING can be done, and it actually IS being done.
In spite of this dimwitted Democrat who's blaming the girls for Weinstein's evil.
When more people have the courage to speak up, things DO happen.
Indeed! WHEN! Not before!
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I wish I had a magic wand I could wave and make it so. So if you want actually want this to happen, then it will take women being smarter to make that happen. And law enforcement needs to do a better job of backing up those women who indeed are brave enough to come out against these monsters.
Unfortunately, too many officers do the same kind of blaming that's gone on here.
I wish you would understand how awful it is, not only to be assaulted or raped, but then to be blamed, accused, and not taken seriously.
It is far better to assume the girls are telling the truth than assume the perpetrator is innocent.
Even PARENTS don't always believe their daughters (and sons) when they try to tell them about abuse.
The culture of shaming the victim as an immediate response has got to end.
(And NO one here has assumed they're all telling the truth. That argument is poppycock).
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Exactly right.
This is the response that men (and unfortunately some women) have had for eons, and one of the reasons that women and girls are so stinking afraid to make the charges.
And yes, it's also going to take some shaming of those actresses who willingly went along with Weinstein....Don't tell me there weren't at least a few actresses that had no problem doing what they had to do to get that precious acting role.
And just so I don't come off as being sexist, there are plenty of male whore actors as well.
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Indeed! WHEN! Not before!
Hate to nitpick, but how many conservative men have assumed that the victims of Weinsten deserved what they got because it is "Hollywood" and they should know better.
Why should they speak up with that kind of pervasive attitude? It's hard enough if people believe you.
And we have two personal examples even on this thread of women who were NOT believed when they were assaulted.
The problem is that the assumption of too many is that girls are lying about what happened.
THAT is what has to end.
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Hate to nitpick, but how many conservative men have assumed that the victims of Weinsten deserved what they got because it is "Hollywood" and they should know better.
Why should they speak up with that kind of pervasive attitude? It's hard enough if people believe you.
And we have two personal examples even on this thread of women who were NOT believed when they were assaulted.
The problem is that the assumption of too many is that girls are lying about what happened.
THAT is what has to end.
I have no idea! All I can tell you is that I was not one of them!
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And yes, it's also going to take some shaming of those actresses who willingly went along with Weinstein....Don't tell me there weren't at least a few actresses that had no problem doing what they had to do to get that precious acting role.
That, actually, is irrelevant to the situations his many, many real victims found themselves in.
The argument that some "wanted it," (a fairly risky assumption at that) has NOTHING to do with the fact that there were many real victims.
You're shifting the topic, I think because it's uncomfortable for you to state straight out that victims of rape are NEVER to blame.
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I have no idea! All I can tell you is that I was not one of them!
I know!
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That, actually, is irrelevant to the situations his many, many real victims found themselves in.
The argument that some "wanted it," (a fairly risky assumption at that) has NOTHING to do with the fact that there were many real victims.
You're shifting the topic, I think because it's uncomfortable for you to state straight out that victims of rape are NEVER to blame.
Are we talking rape or harassment? Rape implies that they had sex against their will. They may not have enjoyed having sex with Weinstein, but they felt it was worth it to advance their career. It's abominable to be sure, but that's not rape.
And in "some" cases, that's exactly what happened. Now be clear, it is always rape in my book if they are under the age of 18.
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Are we talking rape or harassment? Rape implies that they had sex against their will. They may not have enjoyed having sex with Weinstein, but they felt it was worth it to advance their career. It's abominable to be sure, but that's not rape.
And in "some" cases, that's exactly what happened. Now be clear, it is always rape in my book if they are under the age of 18.
Well, it is legally too.
But what do you mean by "harassment"? Are you including fondling? grabbing? undressing? At what point is it not a problem when this happens between an employer (or future employer) and a young woman needing a job?
You DO realize that this is not a problem that only Hollywood has, right?
And at what point do you say, OK, even if the young (maybe 18) woman reluctantly agrees, that there is a crime that has been permitted by forcing her into an untenable position?
I get the feeling you're still grasping at straws to protect men from women here. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems you're working pretty hard to not deal with the actuality of what goes on in most cases.
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You DO realize that this is not a problem that only Hollywood has, right?
No, but it's FAR worse in Hollywood than anywhere else, because of the kind of people that tend to be attracted to having a career in Hollywood.
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No, but it's FAR worse in Hollywood than anywhere else, because of the kind of people that tend to be attracted to having a career in Hollywood.
Totally agree with that. Hollywood was a cesspool long before the sexual revolution turned the rest of the country into a cesspool as well.
They've been absolutely amoral for decades, and I'm sure this kind of thing has been going on for a very long time.
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Totally agree with that. Hollywood was a cesspool long before the sexual revolution turned the rest of the country into a cesspool as well.
They've been absolutely amoral for decades, and I'm sure this kind of thing has been going on for a very long time.
Ok, now I think we see eye-to-eye here, I always was trying to express that Hollywood is different than the rest of society, anyone who wants a career there is nuts, IMHO. If God doesn't destroy Hollywood, he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology.
Now, if we are talking about other areas, then I am in total agreement that women almost NEVER ask to be in that situation. Although if it involves political office, I will still have a jaundiced eye (see Anita Hill).
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Ok, now I think we see eye-to-eye here, I always was trying to express that Hollywood is different than the rest of society, anyone who wants a career there is nuts, IMHO. If God doesn't destroy Hollywood, he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology.
Now, if we are talking about other areas, then I am in total agreement that women almost NEVER ask to be in that situation. Although if it involves political office, I will still have a jaundiced eye (see Anita Hill).
I've never disagreed about Hollywood, and I'm sure that there are many young starlets who think they have to sleep with a big fat unattractive creep to get ahead, but where I have the problem is with putting the blame on the girl who thinks she has no choice (and may even be told that by her mother. **nononono*).
And also I have a problem with not understanding why these girls who HAVE been taken advantage of one way or the other (what girl really WANTS to have one-sided sex with a creepy old man...... I mean really!), have not spoken up until now.
The culture (both men and women) is so perverse that they may not have even understood that they were victims before someone else spoke up.
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Well this is part of the reason why I haven't been watching anything recently produced out of Hollywood in years. I'd feel dirty just watching it.
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Well this is part of the reason why I haven't been watching anything recently produced out of Hollywood in years. I'd feel dirty just watching it.
Not a bad decision. They don't produce much worth watching anyway. We've seen maybe 2 films a year for the past 10 years or so, and those only with the recommendation of people we trust who know our standards.
It's a wasteland for sure.
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@CatherineofAragon
That was just mean. I never said I assume you do. **nononono*
(You know me better than that.)
@Cyber Liberty
Mean? Really?
I've stated repeatedly that I don't reflexively believe a woman every time she makes this kind of accusation, and then you were still telling me I shouldn't. Don't know what else I should have thought.
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Look @CatherineofAragon, I took the time to go back through the thread this morning because I felt it incumbent on me to do so and have resolved the controversy to my satisfaction.
There is NOTHING anyone can do to protect a women from slugs like Wienstein if the women chooses to participate regardless of her motivation for doing so!
Have a nice rest of your day!
@Bigun
So you'll continue to shame the women and expect them to come forth and lap up your condemnation.
I'm not a feminist, but some conservative men are a pretty good argument for becoming one.
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Exactly right.
This is the response that men (and unfortunately some women) have had for eons, and one of the reasons that women and girls are so stinking afraid to make the charges.
@musiclady
Exactly. I was naive enough to think our side was different, though.
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I wish I had a magic wand I could wave and make it so. So if you want actually want this to happen, then it will take women being smarter to make that happen. And law enforcement needs to do a better job of backing up those women who indeed are brave enough to come out against these monsters.
@dfwgator
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And yes, it's also going to take some shaming of those actresses who willingly went along with Weinstein....Don't tell me there weren't at least a few actresses that had no problem doing what they had to do to get that precious acting role.
And just so I don't come off as being sexist, there are plenty of male whore actors as well.
@dfwgator
Oh, you came off sexist pages ago, so that horse is out of the barn.
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@Cyber Liberty
Mean? Really?
I've stated repeatedly that I don't reflexively believe a woman every time she makes this kind of accusation, and then you were still telling me I shouldn't. Don't know what else I should have thought.
I didn't think my comments were pointed at you, but if they were, I didn't mean them to be and I apologize.
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@musiclady
Exactly. I was naive enough to think our side was different, though.
If our side were different, things would not be as they are. :shrug:
Not to bring up a sore point, but if our side were different, we would have had a different nominee for President in 2016.
But sexual predation was no big deal to a plurality on "our side."
That's part of the reason I gave up on the Republican Party. (Only part).
We have met the enemy, and he is us.....
(Actually, upon reflection, I think there were one or two men on this forum who liked the guy MORE after they found out he preyed on young women..... **nononono*)
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I didn't think my comments were pointed at you, but if they were, I didn't mean them to be and I apologize.
@Cyber Liberty
Well, you said to me, "Don't believe every woman coming out of the woodwork", so yeah, I took it to be me.
Thank you.
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@Cyber Liberty
Well, you said to me, "Don't believe every woman coming out of the woodwork", so yeah, I took it to be me.
Thank you.
It was not a comment aimed at you, it was just a general comment to the thread. I already know you better than that. But I can see how you could take it that way, and again, I am sorry for that. It was not my intent.
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It was not a comment aimed at you, it was just a general comment to the thread. I already know you better than that. But I can see how you could take it that way, and again, I am sorry for that. It was not my intent.
If I can jump in here....... I also thank you for the apology, because I interpreted it the same way @CatherineofAragon did.
Sometimes what we say, and our intentions seem very clear to us, but they come across much differently than they are meant. (Speaking from vast experience here!)
@Cyber Liberty
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If I can jump in here....... I also thank you for the apology, because I interpreted it the same way @CatherineofAragon did.
Sometimes what we say, and our intentions seem very clear to us, but they come across much differently than they are meant. (Speaking from vast experience here!)
@Cyber Liberty
Everybody gets defensive about some topics, and I'd say there was a bit of that in my post.
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It was not a comment aimed at you, it was just a general comment to the thread. I already know you better than that. But I can see how you could take it that way, and again, I am sorry for that. It was not my intent.
@Cyber Liberty
I appreciate that. Fully accepted.
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If I can jump in here....... I also thank you for the apology, because I interpreted it the same way @CatherineofAragon did.
Sometimes what we say, and our intentions seem very clear to us, but they come across much differently than they are meant. (Speaking from vast experience here!)
@Cyber Liberty
@musiclady
The eternal problem on the internet, right? No one can hear inflections and there's always the danger you'll be misunderstood.
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@Cyber Liberty
I appreciate that. Fully accepted.
@CatherineofAragon @musiclady
:beer:
:beer:
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@Bigun
So you'll continue to shame the women and expect them to come forth and lap up your condemnation.
I'm not a feminist, but some conservative men are a pretty good argument for becoming one.
Sorry dear! You are rrreeeeaaaaaaccccccccchhhhhhhhhiiiiiinnnnnnnnggggggg way to far with that garbage!
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Sorry dear! You are rrreeeeaaaaaaccccccccchhhhhhhhhiiiiiinnnnnnnnggggggg way to far with that garbage!
It's clear that you were never a woman posting on TOS.
I spent 10 years there, and the sexism was so rank that sometimes I felt like I needed a shower after I left.
Which reminds me of a point I didn't make about men and women and emotions.....
The women who post on the Internet tend to be survivors of all sorts of verbal abuse (not here, mind you, but 'out there.').
We keep our emotions in check, or just are mature enough to handle loads of insults from piggish men that we don't overreact to things.
On the other hand, the emotional flailings of a number of men who get feelings hurt and lash out is pretty significant.
I would venture to say that the majority of women who get involved in heated discussions keep things intelligent and sometimes oh, so sarcastic.
Many men, to the contrary, just get mad and say stupid things rather than think things through and stick it out to the end. (Like a couple of you have. You're gentlemen!).
That's one of the reasons I love this forum and despised TOS. A much larger percentage of the men here are men, and not little boys. That's pretty much all they have left over at that other place...... emotional little boys.
Making the stereotype the opposite of the truth. :patriot:
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@CatherineofAragon @musiclady
:beer:
:beer:
:beer:
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Sorry dear! You are rrreeeeaaaaaaccccccccchhhhhhhhhiiiiiinnnnnnnnggggggg way to far with that garbage!
@Bigun, I'm not playing that with you. You're going to have to own it.
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It's clear that you were never a woman posting on TOS.
I spent 10 years there, and the sexism was so rank that sometimes I felt like I needed a shower after I left.
Which reminds me of a point I didn't make about men and women and emotions.....
The women who post on the Internet tend to be survivors of all sorts of verbal abuse (not here, mind you, but 'out there.').
We keep our emotions in check, or just are mature enough to handle loads of insults from piggish men that we don't overreact to things.
On the other hand, the emotional flailings of a number of men who get feelings hurt and lash out is pretty significant.
I would venture to say that the majority of women who get involved in heated discussions keep things intelligent and sometimes oh, so sarcastic.
Many men, to the contrary, just get mad and say stupid things rather than think things through and stick it out to the end. (Like a couple of you have. You're gentlemen!).
That's one of the reasons I love this forum and despised TOS. A much larger percentage of the men here are men, and not little boys. That's pretty much all they have left over at that other place...... emotional little boys.
Making the stereotype the opposite of the truth. :patriot:
@musiclady
When I signed up at TOS, I didn't believe conservative men could dislike women. I thought TaxChick was exaggerating when she said many men over there really despise them. I was wrong, and she was right.
Just offhand, did you ever run across bert at TOS?
He has some kind of fixation on women and Oil of Olay....he holds them in contempt for using it, but I'm not sure why.
He once said to me that females wear high heels not because they're fashionable, or because they improve the look of the leg, but because women feel inferior to men and the heels make them feel more equal.
?
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@Bigun, I'm not playing that with you. You're going to have to own it.
@CatherineofAragon
No Sale! I'm not playing your stupid game!
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@musiclady
When I signed up at TOS, I didn't believe conservative men could dislike women. I thought TaxChick was exaggerating when she said many men over there really despise them. I was wrong, and she was right.
Just offhand, did you ever run across bert at TOS?
He has some kind of fixation on women and Oil of Olay....he holds them in contempt for using it, but I'm not sure why.
He once said to me that females wear high heels not because they're fashionable, or because they improve the look of the leg, but because women feel inferior to men and the heels make them feel more equal.
?
Was that A-bert? (Or whatever. I think I've repressed many of the names). He was a creep.
That kind of comment is not surprising in the least. And we had to take that day in and day out, and the women who dared fight back were immediately labeled "harpies" by a bunch of insecure sexist pigs, smoking cigars, with beer bellies sticking out of the bottom of their wife beaters, most likely still in their Mommy's basement..... *****rollingeyes*****
Conservative men who say there isn't rampant sexism have clearly never been a woman taking verbal abuse from insecure men.
@CatherineofAragon
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@musiclady
When I signed up at TOS, I didn't believe conservative men could dislike women. I thought TaxChick was exaggerating when she said many men over there really despise them. I was wrong, and she was right.
Just offhand, did you ever run across bert at TOS?
He has some kind of fixation on women and Oil of Olay....he holds them in contempt for using it, but I'm not sure why.
He once said to me that females wear high heels not because they're fashionable, or because they improve the look of the leg, but because women feel inferior to men and the heels make them feel more equal.
?
Oh, yes......... and I had the same experience. The conservative men I knew in real life were respectful and decent.
TOS was a total eye opener in that regard. A little of it carries over here once in a while, but that place was rancid.
@CatherineofAragon
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Hmm, a couple of the comments here make me believe that if those members magically found a naked woman in their backyards they would think it would be okay to have sex with them, even if the woman said no.
Doesn't anyone see the parallel with the Muslim attitude of 'it isn't rape if she was dressed inappropriately'? How 'liberating' for a Democrat to take that stance.
I mean, exposing a few inches of ankle is reason to act like they have a 24 hour pass at a bordello?
This is nonsense, and only shifts blame for someone not exercising any self-control over sexual appetites to their victims. Where were their parents???
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When I signed up at TOS, I didn't believe conservative men could dislike women. I thought TaxChick was exaggerating when she said many men over there really despise them. I was wrong, and she was right.
Of all the people at TOS, I miss TaxChick the most. She posted daily Kitten Pics on the Undead Thread, and I always substituted for her when she was gone.
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Doesn't anyone see the parallel with the Muslim attitude of 'it isn't rape if she was dressed inappropriately'? How 'liberating' for a Democrat to take that stance.
I mean, exposing a few inches of ankle is reason to act like they have a 24 hour pass at a bordello?
This is nonsense, and only shifts blame for someone not exercising any self-control over sexual appetites to their victims. Where were their parents???
Well, you know, the libs always have been sympathetic to the Muslims.
I once heard a "feminist" say genital mutilation was no problem because it was just a cultural thing.
I've said it before (and I said it a lot on that pro-life thread)....... liberals despise women. They want the worst for us.
That's why this utterance is not really surprising.
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Well, you know, the libs always have been sympathetic to the Muslims.
I once heard a "feminist" say genital mutilation was no problem because it was just a cultural thing.
I've said it before (and I said it a lot on that pro-life thread)....... liberals despise women. They want the worst for us.
That's why this utterance is not really surprising.
Liberals hate everybody but their own selves, and that includes other liberals.
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Well, you know, the libs always have been sympathetic to the Muslims.
I once heard a "feminist" say genital mutilation was no problem because it was just a cultural thing.
I've said it before (and I said it a lot on that pro-life thread)....... liberals despise women. They want the worst for us.
That's why this utterance is not really surprising.
I think they are the anti-chivalrists, wanting to be absolved of any moral obligation to protect and respect women. It is not that women aren't quite capable, but the concept of revering motherhood or of 'women and children first' (in the lifeboats) requires some self-sacrifice which is just part of being a man. The traditional virtues of honesty, strength, self-sacrifice, protector, and provider, all are all anathema to the liberal who is selfish at his core.
Selfishness is not compatible with the traditional virtues which built Western Civilization, those of family and parenthood, independence, and fairness, nor is liberalism.
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What we need is more fathers who are willing to defend their daughter's honor against pigs like that.
It only would have taken one angry father to put an end to Weinstein years ago.
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@dfwgator @Smokin Joe @Cyber Liberty
What you have all said is true.
The complete breakdown of American traditions (actually of all of Western Civilization) has been the goal of the left for a century.....
They ally themselves with anyone who is also working to destroy all that's dear to us.
And, yes. They are completely self-absorbed, which is a perfect conduit to destroy any concern or respect for others.
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Of all the people at TOS, I miss TaxChick the most. She posted daily Kitten Pics on the Undead Thread, and I always substituted for her when she was gone.
@Cyber Liberty
I remember that. I think your last post was made on that thread.
TaxChick did not suffer fools.
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@Cyber Liberty
I remember that. I think your last post was made on that thread.
TaxChick did not suffer fools.
I posted since then. I posted on the "goodbye" thread to JRandomFreeper. He was a good man.
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@CatherineofAragon
No Sale! I'm not playing your stupid game!
Sorry, @Biigun, but your posts speak for themselves. All the yelling and exclamation marks in the world won't change that.
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Was that A-bert? (Or whatever. I think I've repressed many of the names). He was a creep.
That kind of comment is not surprising in the least. And we had to take that day in and day out, and the women who dared fight back were immediately labeled "harpies" by a bunch of insecure sexist pigs, smoking cigars, with beer bellies sticking out of the bottom of their wife beaters, most likely still in their Mommy's basement..... *****rollingeyes*****
Conservative men who say there isn't rampant sexism have clearly never been a woman taking verbal abuse from insecure men.
@CatherineofAragon
@musiclady
No...A+Bert was before my time. This guy is just plain bert.
Lol, that description is right on target. Yet they complain that American women don't realize how wonderful they are, and they order up wives from the Philippines.
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[quote author2=CatherineofAragon link=topic=286674.msg1490763#msg1490763 date=1508626435]
Sorry, @Biigun, but your posts speak for themselves. All the yelling and exclamation marks in the world won't change that.
[/quote]
Yeah! They certainly do and I will happily stand by every word I said in them!
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We need a minefield emoji...
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I posted since then. I posted on the "goodbye" thread to JRandomFreeper. He was a good man.
I miss JRandom (Johnny)...A very good man.