The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: rangerrebew on October 16, 2013, 10:19:30 am
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Doctors, Hospitals Demanding Patients Pay Entire Deductible Up Front Thanks to Obamacare
by Breitbart News 15 Oct 2013 22 post a comment
The rocky rollout of Obamacare isn’t limited to website problems. According to a report from Bloomberg, many doctors and clinics are now demanding that people pay the entire deductible on their insurance before they will be seen. Obamacare will increase that practice, since a huge number of plans under Obamacare have low premiums with huge deductibles.
The second-cheapest Obamacare plan in California has a $2,000 annual deductible. Hospitals want deductibles paid up front to ensure they receive their cash rather than being stiffed on the back end. Meanwhile, employers are jumping on the high deductible bandwagon, with 34 percent of insured workers having deductibles higher than $1,000.
There are 15.5 million people with high deductible plans, an increase of 12.5 million since 2005. Both doctors and hospitals at New York University Langone Medical Center insist on full payment of deductibles before care, according to administration.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/10/15/Obamacare-deductible
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If signing up for a plan is slow and cumbersome if at all even possible depending on the system working, wonder how much of a nightmare it’s going to be for the Doctors and Hospital’s to process their claims. My wife is in the health care industry and processes claims and I know it’s not always a smooth process, and often payments from the insurer are delayed for many reasons. That is only going to get much worse now with Obamacare, and I don’t blame the Doctors for wanting to see cash up front, because they are not entirely confident that they are going to get paid from the insurer in a reasonable amount of time, and that there staff will be bogged down fighting with the insurance companies.
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they are not entirely confident that they are going to get paid from the insurer in a reasonable amount of time,
If I were a doctor I'd be damned concerned I would get paid by the government, too, and when they are the only payer, I'd get out of the business. :bolt:
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Lessseeee here.....
I sign up for ObamaCare, for some bronze, silver, or what-have-you plan that has a $10,000 deductible.
Then I have to go to the hospital for something, and they demand that I pay my entire deductible "up front" before they will treat me.
That sure is "affordable" care, now, ain't it ???
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A new child will soon enter your life. Despite the fact that it's not your child, you will pay for its healthcare for the rest of your life.
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The rocky rollout of Obamacare isn’t limited to website problems. According to a report from Bloomberg, many doctors and clinics are now demanding that people pay the entire deductible on their insurance before they will be seen.
This doesn't make sense. How can a doctor require that an ENTIRE DEDUCTIBLE be paid before the doctor even knows what the patient's problem is?
Something doesn't sound right about this.
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Simple Sink so I will try to explain it too you in language even you should be able to understand.
-You go to the doctor because your stomach hurts. You pay whatever the co-pay is for the doctor visit, or most likely pay for all of it in cash because the doctor doesn't take insurance anymore.
-You have to get an ultrasound, which you have to pay 75%, 90%, 100% of out of pocket because your insurance doesn't cover any of it or your overall deductible is $10,000.
-You find out you have gallstones and have to have the gallbladder removed. The cost is going to be $12,000. Before you can have the surgery, you pay the surgeon, hospital, anesthesiologist, etc. and are now out $10,000 or more before ever having the surgery.
Of course, you don't care how many people will be hurt and screwed by this since it just means more money for you.
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This doesn't make sense. How can a doctor require that an ENTIRE DEDUCTIBLE be paid before the doctor even knows what the patient's problem is?
Something doesn't sound right about this.
It's easy... 2 + 2 = 5... really it does. And soon, twitter will know what the problem is. NSA has it all covered. Plus we have hopeychangey "navigators". What could possible go wrong? Who's on your buddy list? What did you have for breakfast? Any guns? Rashes? What color is that? Any prayer content? LGBT? We know... don't you?
Get with it!
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Simple Sink so I will try to explain it too you in language even you should be able to understand.
-You go to the doctor because your stomach hurts. You pay whatever the co-pay is for the doctor visit, or most likely pay for all of it in cash because the doctor doesn't take insurance anymore.
-You have to get an ultrasound, which you have to pay 75%, 90%, 100% of out of pocket because your insurance doesn't cover any of it or your overall deductible is $10,000.
-You find out you have gallstones and have to have the gallbladder removed. The cost is going to be $12,000. Before you can have the surgery, you pay the surgeon, hospital, anesthesiologist, etc. and are now out $10,000 or more before ever having the surgery.
Of course, you don't care how many people will be hurt and screwed by this since it just means more money for you.
Hey pal. Stuff your condescension.
You did not answer the question. The article says "Doctors are requiring the payment of the full deductible BEFORE THEY WILL SEE YOU."
I'd appreciate a discussion without all the snide ad hominems. I didn't get one from you.
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This doesn't make sense. How can a doctor require that an ENTIRE DEDUCTIBLE be paid before the doctor even knows what the patient's problem is?
Something doesn't sound right about this.
A walk in clinic here will not see ANYONE without a cash payment upfront - even if the patient is Medicare or Medicaid...... I know this crushes you to hear these Obamacare horror stories, but they are only going to become more, not less, common.
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One of my doctors is going to cash only on January 1st. Almost every other doctor I know of in private practice is doing the same. Only those part of large organizations or affiliated with hospitals are still going to be taking insurance.
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With electronic claims come immediate electronic checking with your insurance carrier... if you have not met your deductible - pay up - cash now. If you have a $50 co-pay - pay up.. if procedure isn't covered - pay up....
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A walk in clinic here will not see ANYONE without a cash payment upfront - even if the patient is Medicare or Medicaid...... I know this crushes you to hear these Obamacare horror stories, but they are only going to become more, not less, common.
You didn't answer the question either.
How can a clinic require "THE ENTIRE DEDUCTIBLE UP FRONT BEFORE THE PATIENT IS SEEN"? Is the article wrong?
THis doesn't make any sense.
And, you, too. I'd appreciate you leaving out the snide comments.
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With electronic claims come immediate electronic checking with your insurance carrier... if you have not met your deductible - pay up - cash now. If you have a $50 co-pay - pay up.. if procedure isn't covered - pay up....
Claims are after the fact.
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You didn't answer the question either.
How can a clinic require "THE ENTIRE DEDUCTIBLE UP FRONT BEFORE THE PATIENT IS SEEN"? Is the article wrong?
THis doesn't make any sense.
And, you, too. I'd appreciate you leaving out the snide comments.
I just explained it to you. We know before you see the doctor what your deductible is and if it has been met or not, what your insurance covers and doesn't cover... patients no longer skate by with "bill me for the balance".. you pay or you do not get seen by the doctor.
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Claims are after the fact.
I know all about claims...
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How is someone supposed to pay a deductible BEFORE a doctor visit? The deductible is dependent on a diagnosis.
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How is someone supposed to pay a deductible BEFORE a doctor visit? The deductible is dependent on a diagnosis.
Every patient has a co-pay. They collect it upfront. If the patient has a deductible that has not been met they have a FEE Schedule... they collect the fee schedule amount and then IF there is a credit after the claim is submitted to the carrier the patient receives a refund.
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Every patient has a co-pay. They collect it upfront. If the patient has a deductible that has not been met they have a FEE Schedule... they collect the fee schedule amount and then IF there is a credit after the claim is submitted to the carrier the patient receives a refund.
So the article is wrong. Deductibles are not collected BEFORE the patient sees the doctor. ONly the copay is collected upfront.
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So the article is wrong. Deductibles are not collected BEFORE the patient sees the doctor. ONly the copay is collected upfront.
You are thinking of the normal world before this monstrosity.
(http://b-i.forbesimg.com/scottgottlieb/files/2013/04/hometopfeature_panel4_0_mainstory-1365009601.jpg)
Now, who knows what is in there. I would have it printed and delivered but the government printing office has decided that a reasonable price for printing is now $1/page.
As more and more of this is hashed out, I'm sure we'll find a lot of crazy stuff happening that we wouldn't believe at first.
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So the article is wrong. Deductibles are not collected BEFORE the patient sees the doctor. ONly the copay is collected upfront.
Definitely the co-pay. Used to be doctors would bill the co-pay - no longer. But if the patient has a $2000 deductible and it hasn't been met they will collect the fee for an average OV upfront from the patient as well. Also at the start of the year they collect the full Medicare deductible from Medicare patients... but the clinic I know of locally collects cash for every visit - every patient - no exceptions and if the people don't like it they tell them they can leave... they tell you they will send you a refund (if you have one)... But if you have an emergency you go there or you go to the ER and our ER can leave you sitting for an hour or longer.
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I have to pay a co pay for my hospital stays it is $400. When I went in the hospital for a surgery a couple of years ago I had to pay the $400 a week before I had the surgery they had me pay it when I went for my pre-surgery check up. They know how much you need to pay due to they have your insurance coverage on file or you give it when going for your pre-surgery check up. They do not wait till the surgery is over sinkpur. Yes they do collect a deductible before you have surgery that has been happening for years not just since Obamacare. I sold medical insurance for years with Aetna and I can tell you that does happen. A hospital isn't going to trust you to pay that deductible later since now many deductibles are for $2500 or more. You pay it up front and Obamacare since it is all about large deductibles will hurt people who are on a strict budget and can't afford it. This is just an insurance scheme we saw these types of policies all the time when I was working and we didn't sell them and we called them money makers not insurance.
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Simple Sink so I will try to explain it too you in language even you should be able to understand.
-You go to the doctor because your stomach hurts. You pay whatever the co-pay is for the doctor visit, or most likely pay for all of it in cash because the doctor doesn't take insurance anymore.
-You have to get an ultrasound, which you have to pay 75%, 90%, 100% of out of pocket because your insurance doesn't cover any of it or your overall deductible is $10,000.
-You find out you have gallstones and have to have the gallbladder removed. The cost is going to be $12,000. Before you can have the surgery, you pay the surgeon, hospital, anesthesiologist, etc. and are now out $10,000 or more before ever having the surgery.
Of course, you don't care how many people will be hurt and screwed by this since it just means more money for you.
This is the reason for the death panels; people who can't afford to pay the deductibles for the "free" medical care. :Obounce:
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What about our seniors? Most of them have worked all their lives, saved for retirement and now will spend their life savings on medical bills. Doesn't matter that they've paid into Medicare & SS all their lives and even carry a supplement policy.
A one week hospital stay could wipe out all their assets with one visit.
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A one week hospital stay could wipe out all their assets with one visit.
Yet another reason for death panels. :thud:
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What about our seniors? Most of them have worked all their lives, saved for retirement and now will spend their life savings on medical bills. Doesn't matter that they've paid into Medicare & SS all their lives and even carry a supplement policy.
A one week hospital stay could wipe out all their assets with one visit.
Then they die. Seniors are of no interest to the youth oriented, instant gratification culture of today, as so ably represented by the left. After all, seniors tend to vote to the right, and the 20 somethings the Dem policies are aimed at enticing just know they will never grow old.
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You are thinking of the normal world before this monstrosity.
(http://b-i.forbesimg.com/scottgottlieb/files/2013/04/hometopfeature_panel4_0_mainstory-1365009601.jpg)
Now, who knows what is in there. I would have it printed and delivered but the government printing office has decided that a reasonable price for printing is now $1/page.
As more and more of this is hashed out, I'm sure we'll find a lot of crazy stuff happening that we wouldn't believe at first.
My husband has read the entire thing.
ALL of it.
It's far more of a monstrosity than anyone who hasn't read it (me included) knows about.
I think a lot of folks will be shocked to know that they don't have any choice as to what hospital they go to because of this bill.
So.........if they like the smaller hospital in their community, and only the big one is approved, then they have to go to the one they don't want and stay away from the one they like.
This is a monstrosity far beyond what most of us know about yet......
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A new child will soon enter your life. Despite the fact that it's not your child, you will pay for its healthcare for the rest of your life.
That's terrible. I'd rather my tax money go towards throwing marijuana users in prison.
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That's terrible. I'd rather my tax money go towards throwing marijuana users in prison.
This is a typically liberal debate tactic. Ignore the argument made by the other side & throw out anything that might distract from it. Usually it's an ad hominem attack. The red herring works just fine, though.
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This is a typically liberal debate tactic. Ignore the argument made by the other side & throw out anything that might distract from it. Usually it's an ad hominem attack. The red herring works just fine, though.
What argument did I ignore? I'm indifferent about Obamacare because I don't support/trust the democrats any more than I support/trust the republicans.
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What argument did I ignore? I'm indifferent about Obamacare because I don't support/trust the democrats any more than I support/trust the republicans.
Indifference is how they keep in power. You get that?
You served. You know damned well you had superior officers that shouldn't be trusted with scraping out a chicken coop by hand. We all did. Indifference kicked them upstairs to where their habitual bleep ups could not just be annoying, but actually take your life.
Politics is no different. If you don't pay attention, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. You need to pay attention to all of it. Not just the parts in the news and the rage du jour.
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Indifference is how they keep in power. You get that?
You served. You know damned well you had superior officers that shouldn't be trusted with scraping out a chicken coop by hand. We all did. Indifference kicked them upstairs to where their habitual bleep ups could not just be annoying, but actually take your life.
Politics is no different. If you don't pay attention, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
I do pay attention, and that is what leads me to be indifferent about and not trust either side. I support third party voting, and I believe that it is one of our only options for removing the corruption that plagues D.C. There are even republicans that I would vote for if they ran third party.
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Take it from a guy who lives in a 3 main party system and is currently in a coalition government. Who is married to an Italian, where they have - at last count - 17 major parties.
It does not work. Third party is a pipe dream. Pick up your pack and shovel, get out there and fix things. Don't care which side you try to fix - but fix it.
That is why OWS failed. It wasn't the media. It wasn't the assholes who took it as a chance to "stick it to the man" (and a fair number of unwilling women). They were protesting. Did you hear a single, rational and workable fix for the problems caused by Wall Street and K Street? I didn't and I was working that story pretty much 24/7. There was much bitching, but no fixing.
The Tea Party did some better. They got out and got people more closely aligned with their views elected. Unfortunately, not enough.
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What argument did I ignore? I'm indifferent about Obamacare because I don't support/trust the democrats any more than I support/trust the republicans.
Another typically liberal debate tactic--pretend you have no idea that you've ignored the argument. To spell it out explicitly, I'll quote Rapunzel, then your response:
A new child will soon enter your life. Despite the fact that it's not your child, you will pay for its healthcare for the rest of your life.
That's terrible. I'd rather my tax money go towards throwing marijuana users in prison.
See? Rapunzel made a statement and you ignored it by responding with something that's not even remotely related.
You'll now make some specious claim about how *I* took something out of context, you were joking, or something similarly false.
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It does not work. Third party is a pipe dream.
I'd be happy to have a second party.
Although they have different methods, the (purported) two parties of today are after the same goal: use the government to accomplish their own aims. Using government to protect natural rights is the farthest thing from the minds of either party.
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I'd be happy to have a second party.
Although they have different methods, the (purported) two parties of today are after the same goal: use the government to accomplish their own aims. Using government to protect natural rights is the farthest thing from the minds of either party.
In a way, you do have three parties. You have conservatives, the hard progressives and the status quo.
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Obamacare, because FUBAR doesn't begin to describe it.
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There are even republicans that I would vote for if they ran third party.
How would they be Republicans, then? Maybe we should look at the candidate's platform, not just the party affiliation.
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Keep in mind the mem from the leftist groups is to infiltrate conservative groups and push 3rd party by causing division in the groups... :pondering:
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I do pay attention, and that is what leads me to be indifferent about and not trust either side. I support third party voting, and I believe that it is one of our only options for removing the corruption that plagues D.C. There are even republicans that I would vote for if they ran third party.
Please name them I am curious
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There are even republicans that I would vote for if they ran third party.
Third party? Why do they have to run third party instead of as Republicans? Either you agree with them or do not. What difference does party affiliation make to that?
Refusing to vote for someone of whom you approve simply because of their party suggests you are a complete whacko bird.
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What argument did I ignore? I'm indifferent about Obamacare because I don't support/trust the democrats any more than I support/trust the republicans.
What a load of crap.
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Please name them I am curious
Ron/Rand Paul as a quick example. I don't agree with a lot of what they say, but their stance on drugs/banks is more than enough to get my vote if they would run third party. To the people questioning why I'd only vote for them if they ran third party, I have answered that question over and over again. There are people on the left that I very much agree with, but still will not vote for them as long as they run as a Democrat.
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How would they be Republicans, then? Maybe we should look at the candidate's platform, not just the party affiliation.
They wouldn't be in that situation, and that is exactly why I would then be okay with voting for them. Maybe we should end the corruption in the main parties so the candidate's platform actually matters.
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Third party? Why do they have to run third party instead of as Republicans?
Sooner or later everybody is going to realize that both main parties answer to the same bosses, and that the game was bought out and paid for a long time ago. I refuse to perpetuate the problem by voting for either side.
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Keep in mind the mem from the leftist groups is to infiltrate conservative groups and push 3rd party by causing division in the groups... :pondering:
Repeating my post...ahem!!!! :nono:
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Repeating my post...ahem!!!! :nono:
Do you really believe that I am here to cause disunity and worsen the GOP schism in some sinister attempt to ensure left wing dominance?
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Do you really believe that I am here with an ulterior motive to worsen the GOP schism in some sinister attempt to ensure left wing dominance?
:pondering:
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:pondering:
If that was my goal I would have tried to maximize my impact by infiltrating higher traffic websites. I also would have chosen a different name.
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If that was my goal I would have tried to maximize my impact by infiltrating higher traffic websites.
Hey Cinderella If the shoe fits... well you know the rest :whistle: :silly:
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If that was my goal I would have tried to maximize my impact by infiltrating higher traffic websites. I also would have chosen a different name.
Ignore those who are after you because you are a Liberal. They're also after anybody who doesn't accept a narrow view of what conservatism is.
There are three or four who don't buy the tea party line and they are isolated, ignored, or ridiculed.
Keep your head about you and you'll be fine.
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8888crybaby
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(http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t413/winthroproberts/whine_zps172bdd8d.jpg) (http://s1058.photobucket.com/user/winthroproberts/media/whine_zps172bdd8d.jpg.html)
There are three or four who don't buy the tea party line and they are isolated, ignored, or ridiculed.
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sink, if you have such disdain for this site, why do you post here?
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Ron/Rand Paul as a quick example. I don't agree with a lot of what they say, but their stance on drugs/banks is more than enough to get my vote if they would run third party. To the people questioning why I'd only vote for them if they ran third party, I have answered that question over and over again. There are people on the left that I very much agree with, but still will not vote for them as long as they run as a Democrat.
Look - I am hurting tonight in my soul so will make this brief.
You are a single issue voter. Lots of them about. For some it is the banks, for some it is abortion, for some it is drugs, for some it is the creeping lack of freedom. You can not split one issue from the rest.
Picking the ones you like and ignoring the rest - we have a name for them. Low Information Voters.
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Look - I am hurting tonight in my soul so will make this brief.
You are a single issue voter. Lots of them about. For some it is the banks, for some it is abortion, for some it is drugs, for some it is the creeping lack of freedom. You can not split one issue from the rest.
Picking the ones you like and ignoring the rest - we have a name for them. Low Information Voters.
I agree with them on a lot more than banks, and issues that concern me involve a lot more than banks. I am not a single issue voter; sorry, you are wrong. I have no problem with you believing I am a low information voter, though.
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I agree with them on a lot more than banks. I am not a single issue voter; sorry, you are wrong.
You seem to be, by your posts. Banks and drugs are your go to points. You clearly stated you do not bother with Obamacare earlier on. We know what you stand against - what do you stand for?
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I am hurting tonight in my soul ...
I am sorry to hear that, EC. No words of mine can assuage your pain but I do pray God in his compassion will ease your pain.
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Thanks mate. Lost two good people this week. It just hurts, you know?
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I agree with them on a lot more than banks, and issues that concern me involve a lot more than banks. I am not a single issue voter; sorry, you are wrong. I have no problem with you believing I am a low information voter, though.
EC told you right off the damn start that he is having a hard time. Yet you are so self-focused and close minded to anything or anyone outside yourself it's pathetic and a prominent feature of what little you bring to the discussion.
Travis Tritt has a tune: "Here's a quarter, call someone who cares". Do us a favor and take that experienced advice. Do us another favor, do not respond.
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How is someone supposed to pay a deductible BEFORE a doctor visit? The deductible is dependent on a diagnosis.
It's more likely that if the deductible hasn't been met (and doctors' offices can access this information), then the full cost of the service (rather than the deductible) will have to be paid prior to treatment. The expense would then be submitted to the insurance carrier so it can be applied to the deductible.
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You seem to be, by your posts. Banks and drugs are your go to points. You clearly stated you do not bother with Obamacare earlier on. We know what you stand against - what do you stand for?
I support expansion where it helps people and I support shrinking government where it doesn't. I think we should bring all of our soldiers home and stop wasting billions of dollars maintaining military bases all over the world. I think a poor person working 60+ hours a week for minimum wage should have access to healthcare, and I really don't care how they get it as long as they do get it. I think ignoring poor people is extremely selfish and irresponsible. I support raising taxes on people that surplus millions of dollars a year, and lowering taxes for the middle class and below. I think the banks should be held accountable for their crimes, and I think that accountability should involve a lot more than fines. I think the war on drugs is a senseless waste of taxpayer money that is being used to militarize the police in response to growing discontent, and I also feel the drug war is largely responsible for black communities not flourishing. I could go on and on and on, but I feel what I've said is adequate.
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Ignore those who are after you because you are a Liberal. They're also after anybody who doesn't accept a narrow view of what conservatism is.
There are three or four who don't buy the tea party line and they are isolated, ignored, or ridiculed.
Keep your head about you and you'll be fine.
What the hell is up your butt? if a Liberal comes here and in every other posts is talking about 3rd party then my radar goes up, as that is the mem coming from the OWS and the Obama admin.
What that has to do with you is beyond me. Calm down!
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Thanks mate. Lost two good people this week. It just hurts, you know?
I'm sorry to hear that. Life is too short.
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What the hell is up your butt? if a Liberal comes here and in every other posts is talking about 3rd party then my radar goes up, as that is the mem coming from the OWS and the Obama admin.
What that has to do with you is beyond me. Calm down!
I want the left to vote third party too.
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I want the left to vote third party too.
I want the left to vote 3rd party too, but not us!!! :silly:
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I support expansion where it helps people and I support shrinking government where it doesn't. I think we should bring all of our soldiers home and stop wasting billions of dollars maintaining military bases all over the world. I think a poor person working 60+ hours a week for minimum wage should have access to healthcare, and I really don't care how they get it as long as they do get it. I think ignoring poor people is extremely selfish and irresponsible. I support raising taxes on people that surplus millions of dollars a year, and lowering taxes for the middle class and below. I think the banks should be held accountable for their crimes, and I think that accountability should involve a lot more than fines. I think the war on drugs is a senseless waste of taxpayer money that is being used to militarize the police in response to growing discontent, and I also feel the drug war is largely responsible for black communities not flourishing. I could go on and on and on, but I feel what I've said is adequate.
Not that any of this will sink in as nothing we share with you here ever sinks in.......
Poor people - and their children, including the children of illegals, already get FREE healthcare, we didn't need to turn the entire country and health system upside down to give it to them...
We had approximately 15% who were uninsured - it is actually higher now thanks to Ocare and people who had reasonably priced policies with reasonable deductibles and co-pays now are faced with huge monthly insurance premiums and deductibles that are what people normally had for Major medical policies with very small premiums.
One reason the costs have sky-rocketed under O-Care is now they mandate a one-size-fits all policy for everyone -- 62 years old and past child bearing age - doesn't matter you MUST have coverage for maternity and birth control and... a long list of MUSTS.... and don't forget we now have to pay for your abortion if you are 62 and beyond child-bearing age.. or your vasectomy (if you're a male).....
They also mandate they have to take everyone -- and you can even wait until you are sick and dying and then sign up for insurance.. Somehow the term "INSURANCE" has become lost in the equation - as in insurance to protect you IN CASE you become ill - not wait until you ARE ill and then go oops ... guess I better go sign up and let all those healthy schmucks in the insurance pool cover me.....
Of course there is the fact the 15% who didn't have insurance or the ability to get insurance didn't have it because a certain age group feels they are invinsible and do not need insurance and the others are the aforementioned who didn't bother to get insurance and then found out they had an illness and now are pissed because they can't get insurance to cover their "existing" illness.... so take you liberal attitude that we all have to pay for the people who have been too busy buying expensive tattoos, cell phones, flat screen TV's, expensive boats, cars, etc., instead of insurance and shove it.
Oh and people who have a legitimate "disability" -- THEY get MEDICARE under disibility insurance... people need to get a clue, the system was not broken, the government is and has broken it.
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Not that any of this will sink in as nothing we share with you here ever sinks in.......
Poor people - and their children, including the children of illegals, already get FREE healthcare, we didn't need to turn the entire country and health system upside down to give it to them...
We had approximately 15% who were uninsured - it is actually higher now thanks to Ocare and people who had reasonably priced policies with reasonable deductibles and co-pays now are faced with huge monthly insurance premiums and deductibles that are what people normally had for Major medical policies with very small premiums.
One reason the costs have sky-rocketed under O-Care is now they mandate a one-size-fits all policy for everyone -- 62 years old and past child bearing age - doesn't matter you MUST have coverage for maternity and birth control and... a long list of MUSTS.... and don't forget we now have to pay for your abortion if you are 62 and beyond child-bearing age.. or your vasectomy (if you're a male).....
They also mandate they have to take everyone -- and you can even wait until you are sick and dying and then sign up for insurance.. Somehow the term "INSURANCE" has become lost in the equation - as in insurance to protect you IN CASE you become ill - not wait until you ARE ill and then go oops ... guess I better go sign up and let all those healthy schmucks in the insurance pool cover me.....
Of course there is the fact the 15% who didn't have insurance or the ability to get insurance didn't have it because a certain age group feels they are invinsible and do not need insurance and the others are the aforementioned who didn't bother to get insurance and then found out they had an illness and now are pissed because they can't get insurance to cover their "existing" illness.... so take you liberal attitude that we all have to pay for the people who have been too busy buying expensive tattoos, cell phones, flat screen TV's, expensive boats, cars, etc., instead of insurance and shove it.
Oh and people who have a legitimate "disability" -- THEY get MEDICARE under disibility insurance... people need to get a clue, the system was not broken, the government is and has broken it.
I don't support Obamacare, and I actually think the individual mandate was a pretty stupid idea. You seem to forget that I am not a liberal that is chained to the Democrats and is willing to fight to the death for every stupid idea they have.
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sink, if you have such disdain for this site, why do you post here?
I don't disdain the site.
And I would appreciate it if you didn't use my name. I don't use anyone else's and we use monikers so that we don't have to use our real names. You, as a moderator, should know better.
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What the hell is up your butt? if a Liberal comes here and in every other posts is talking about 3rd party then my radar goes up, as that is the mem coming from the OWS and the Obama admin.
What that has to do with you is beyond me. Calm down!
Nothing is up my butt. Why do you attack a poster like Liberal Spy who is as cordial as he can be? Third parties are a waste of time; everybody knows it. Even he knows it.
Since he is constantly under attack (as I was last week) I thought I would tell him to just chill and not get riled over it.
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I don't support Obamacare, and I actually think the individual mandate was a pretty stupid idea. You seem to forget that I am not a liberal that is chained to the Democrats and is willing to fight to the death for every stupid idea they have.
Don't blow smoke up my skirt... this is what you posted:
I think a poor person working 60+ hours a week for minimum wage should have access to healthcare, and I really don't care how they get it as long as they do get it. I think ignoring poor people is extremely selfish and irresponsible.
And I am telling you this post shows extreme ignorance of what was an already existing system... because THESE are the people who already receive and received free healthcare..... so no one is ignoring poor people even with us taking care of our military at the same time.
What I find deplorable is how this administration wants to cut healthcare benefits for our military veterans who have actually put their lives on the line for this country.
Frankly if a person is getting food stamps, medicaid, etc., a new tattoo, flat screen purchase, etc., should be grounds from taking them off the rolls...... if they have the money for the things I've seen them buying I should not have to pay for their kids, their cars, their food or their healthcare.
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And I am telling you this post shows extreme ignorance of what was an already existing system... because THESE are the people who already receive and received free healthcare..... so no one is ignoring poor people even with us taking care of our military at the same time.
What do you mean by free healthcare? Are you talking about the people that eventually give in and stumble into an ER to get emergency treatment for a condition that could have been handled way before it got that bad, and for a fraction of the cost? That's not actually free healthcare.
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I support expansion where it helps people and I support shrinking government where it doesn't. I think we should bring all of our soldiers home and stop wasting billions of dollars maintaining military bases all over the world. I think a poor person working 60+ hours a week for minimum wage should have access to healthcare, and I really don't care how they get it as long as they do get it. I think ignoring poor people is extremely selfish and irresponsible. I support raising taxes on people that surplus millions of dollars a year, and lowering taxes for the middle class and below. I think the banks should be held accountable for their crimes, and I think that accountability should involve a lot more than fines. I think the war on drugs is a senseless waste of taxpayer money that is being used to militarize the police in response to growing discontent, and I also feel the drug war is largely responsible for black communities not flourishing. I could go on and on and on, but I feel what I've said is adequate.
Fair enough. Got something to work with and - thank you. I need the distraction.
Expansion where it helps people. I am not going to argue against a safety net. Never used it myself, but know way too many people who have needed it. Preference is for that to be done by private charity rather than compulsion, but a lot of folk are pretty tight with the old wallet today (o blame, you need be with the current system).
Bringing the soldiers home - not one single argument. Those guys have done more, seen more and suffered more than most can imagine. Get their asses home until they are really needed.
The wasting billions of dollars - you know money flow is global? Those dollars eventually come back, with interest from permanent bases. (Not talking about the horrific waste currently going on in the 'Stan draw down - that is a different kettle of cod.)
The working poor getting healthcare - who is going to argue? Not one single person here would. They are working, trying to get their foot on the ladder and at the shaky stage where a single illness, a bad fall or a pregnancy can blow them back into poverty and dependency. Come on - we want to hold the ladder for people to climb, not pull it out from under them. Someone doesn't wants to climb, instead wants to wait for an elevator - EFF them.
The taxes thing? Tell me this. Why should I pay 60% because I happened to have a good idea or good luck or spent years honing a rare skill? You are penalizing me for not taking a data entry job and sticking with it until I keel over? How, exactly, is that fair?
Banking accountability - agreed with one extra word you didn't use. Transparency.
The war on drugs - lets do it properly. Users get ignored or light fines. Dealers get shot, no appeal. If it is a war, treat it as such. It would be over in 4 months.
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What do you mean by free healthcare? Are you talking about the people that eventually give in and stumble into an ER to get emergency treatment for a condition that could have been handled way before it got that bad, and for a fraction of the cost? That's not actually free healthcare.
There is already a program for the unemployed poor and the working poor. It's called Medicaid. I know people insured through this program, and they have access to very good care from a deep well of physicians and hospitals. I was actually surprised by the coverage and doctors available through this plan. Why the government is trying to screw up this program is beyond me.
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Nothing is up my butt. Why do you attack a poster like Liberal Spy who is as cordial as he can be? Third parties are a waste of time; everybody knows it. Even he knows it.
Since he is constantly under attack (as I was last week) I thought I would tell him to just chill and not get riled over it.
I didnt' attack him. I only mentioned on the thread what Obama and his minions are trying to do. He jumped on it so I continued.
It was an observation given his constant posting about 3rd parties. I don't dislike him at all, but I also won't be suckered either :patriot:
You and I are on the same side, albeit opposite ends of how to win most of the time..LOL but we both know a 3rd party will kill us.
As for being after you.. I have never been after you, again, I know you are not a liberal, you just have different party beliefs than some of us do. But that is fine, I don't care. We all come together in the end.. We always have :grouphug:
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What do you mean by free healthcare? Are you talking about the people that eventually give in and stumble into an ER to get emergency treatment for a condition that could have been handled way before it got that bad, and for a fraction of the cost? That's not actually free healthcare.
No, I am speaking about MEDICAID (or ACCESS here in AZ or Medi-Cal in California, etc.) this means these people do not even have a premium or a deductible.. some who do have some means to pay have what is called a SHARE OF COST...... and this also applies to the elderly who are poor - they are called MEDI-MEDI which means what Medicare does not cover Medicaid covers - and that includes their Medicare premium.
The majority of the people who have been abusing emergency rooms has been the illegal population which has bankrupted hospital after hospital along the border from California to Texas... AND the other people who have been the big offenders with ERs are HMO patients who when unable to get into their HMO immediately head to the ER knowing the ER can't make them wait for treatment and they can bill the HMO and hope to get reimbursed at some point.
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What do you mean by free healthcare? Are you talking about the people that eventually give in and stumble into an ER to get emergency treatment for a condition that could have been handled way before it got that bad, and for a fraction of the cost? That's not actually free healthcare.
That's not true...since my hubby retired from the Army he has a pt job at our local hospital..a guard in the ER
I can tell you a lot of stories.
One thing he talks about all the time is how people come in for every minor ailment wanting treatment and having no means to pay..the ones who are on Medicade refuse to pay their cost share which is $3.25......everyone is treated and no one is turned away...
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The taxes thing? Tell me this. Why should I pay 60% because I happened to have a good idea or good luck or spent years honing a rare skill? You are penalizing me for not taking a data entry job and sticking with it until I keel over? How, exactly, is that fair?
If you make millions of dollars a year I feel that the amount it would hinder your lifestyle is negligible. I feel it is a small price to pay for somebody that benefited so much from the system that allows them to be so comfortable. I feel as human beings we have an obligation to help those that are trying but also struggle a lot.
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If you make millions of dollars a year I feel that the amount it would hinder your lifestyle is negligible. I feel it is a small price to pay for somebody that benefited so much from the system that allows them to be so comfortable. I feel as human beings we have an obligation to help those that are trying but also struggle a lot.
Yeah right, so Joe Blow can sit home on the couch and watch Jerry Springer while this "rich" guy is out working his butt off. No thank you.
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If you make millions of dollars a year I feel that the amount it would hinder your lifestyle is negligible. I feel it is a small price to pay for somebody that benefited so much from the system that allows them to be so comfortable. I feel as human beings we have an obligation to help those that are trying but also struggle a lot.
That is what churches and charities used to do until the govt took over. People were better off when the churches did it!
If I work and make a million dollars, which is not much btw by today's standards, and jane has 20 kids cause she likes to live off the govt and never worked a day in her life... You think I should give her something? Are you really that messed up?
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Yeah right, so Joe Blow can sit home on the couch and watch Jerry Springer while this "rich" guy is out working his butt off. No thank you.
I think Joe Blow should be thrown out on his ass and forced to get a job. Some people will always cheat the system; you can't avoid that.
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If you make millions of dollars a year I feel that the amount it would hinder your lifestyle is negligible. I feel it is a small price to pay for somebody that benefited so much from the system that allows them to be so comfortable. I feel as human beings we have an obligation to help those that are trying but also struggle a lot.
I agree (except for that "benefited so much from the system" because successful people by and large work their arses off and create jobs for others). But I agree as human beings we have a moral obligation to help others. That's why we have unemployment insurance, food stamps, welfare benefits and the Medicaid program, to name a few programs.
Please tell me how Obamacare does anything other than hurt the backbone of this nation and its economy...that most esteemed "middle class"... a group who by and large are/were happy with their insurance plan: BOTH its premium and coverage?
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That is what churches and charities used to do until the govt took over. People were better off when the churches did it!
If I work and make a million dollars, which is not much btw by today's standards, and jane has 20 kids cause she likes to live off the govt and never worked a day in her life... You think I should give her something? Are you really that messed up?
No, but I think some of the taxes from said millions should go towards helping people that are legitimately trying but still can't make ends meet. Not everybody that is poor is just a lazy POS that wants to live off of the government. In fact, most of them are not.
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I agree (except for that "benefited so much from the system" because successful people by and large work their arses off and create jobs for others). But I agree as human beings we have a moral obligation to help others. That's why we have unemployment insurance, food stamps, welfare benefits and the Medicaid program, to name a few programs.
Please tell me how Obamacare does anything other than hurt the backbone of this nation and its economy...that most esteemed "middle class"... a group who by and large are/were happy with their insurance plan: BOTH its premium and coverage?
I said in an earlier post that I don't support Obamacare. I don't really care how it is done, but I feel poor working people that can't afford insurance (yes, they exist, and there are a lot of them) should have some sort of option other than going to the ER.
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I said in an earlier post that I don't support Obamacare. I don't really care how it is done, but I feel poor working people that can't afford insurance (yes, they exist, and there are a lot of them) should have some sort of option other than going to the ER.
I heard on the radio that many of the working poor had their insurance increased. Obamacare might force them to give up, and go on full welfare.
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Lib should watch some of the Judge Judy video's.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMjRiZzo1_8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxCa2UITiIk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p39MK2oAF8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxxcoWPr7ls
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If you make millions of dollars a year I feel that the amount it would hinder your lifestyle is negligible. I feel it is a small price to pay for somebody that benefited so much from the system that allows them to be so comfortable. I feel as human beings we have an obligation to help those that are trying but also struggle a lot.
That is what charitable donations are for. I give to the charities that I want to give to, not the ones the govt thinks I should! Not withstanding their raping me of my taxes as it is :silly:
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That is what charitable donations are for. I give to the charities that I want to give to, not the ones the govt thinks I should! Not withstanding their raping me of my taxes as it is :silly:
Do you think charitable donations are/could be enough to cover the need for help? I don't.
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I said in an earlier post that I don't support Obamacare. I don't really care how it is done, but I feel poor working people that can't afford insurance (yes, they exist, and there are a lot of them) should have some sort of option other than going to the ER.
What we tell you really does go in one ear and out the other... do they teach comprehension in college these days.
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What we tell you really does go in one ear and out the other... do they teach comprehension in college these days.
A lot of poor people are not eligible for a lot of the "free healthcare" you were talking about earlier.
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I support expansion where it helps people and I support shrinking government where it doesn't.
Herein lies the problem with liberalism. People can and should decide what helps them and what hurts them and make decisions accordingly, not government. When government decides to usurp power outside of its authority for the purported purpose of helping one person over another, it is by default hurting the second person. In private interactions, exchanges are made without force or the threat of it, and everybody comes out even because all parties must have agreed to the transaction. Another person has not stolen from me if I agree to a bad deal. Government has stolen from me if it takes my resources and gives them to someone who hasn't earned them. The core role of government is to protect individuals' rights. Having food is not a right. Having health care is not a right. Having housing is not a right. Why? Because one person does not have a right to another person's property or skills. We do have the right to seek the aforementioned things without committing acts of force or fraud. We don't have the right to demand them from others without their agreement.
If you make millions of dollars a year I feel that the amount it would hinder your lifestyle is negligible. I feel it is a small price to pay for somebody that benefited so much from the system that allows them to be so comfortable. I feel as human beings we have an obligation to help those that are trying but also struggle a lot.
Dennis Prager says this all the time (paraphrasing): Conservatives think, liberals feel.
I agree that we have an human obligation to help others. We also have a human obligation to not infringe upon other humans' right to their own property. We do not have the right to use the police power of government to take money from individuals and use it for charity.
Have you read or listened to "The Law" yet?
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A lot of poor people are not eligible for a lot of the "free healthcare" you were talking about earlier.
Baloney. As a matter of fact, under Bush they raised AFDC for a family of four into the $80K range. That is not even poor unless you live in DC or NYC.
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I said in an earlier post that I don't support Obamacare. I don't really care how it is done, but I feel poor working people that can't afford insurance (yes, they exist, and there are a lot of them) should have some sort of option other than going to the ER.
LS... please read a previous post of mine. There already IS a program that covers the unemployed and the working poor. It's called Medicaid. Yes, they have to enroll in the program, and no, right now illegal immigrants are not eligible to participate. But poor Americans are eligible and are covered for medical provided through a very extensive medical network.
Obamacare, IMHO, is not about helping the poor and the uninsured. We as a nation have a very successful and very adequate program already in place to help this folks. As I said, I know people insured through this program, and they go to GP's, specialists, hospitals, and receive their prescription medications.
Please "get" that Obamacare has nothing to do with the uninsured or the poor. So, please let go of that argument.
Look at the program. Look at its cost. Look at its effects on the middle class and convince me that Obamacare does not hurt them more than it helps the "poor" beyond the benefits already available to them.
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If you make millions of dollars a year I feel that the amount it would hinder your lifestyle is negligible. I feel it is a small price to pay for somebody that benefited so much from the system that allows them to be so comfortable. I feel as human beings we have an obligation to help those that are trying but also struggle a lot.
It is a small price. For you.
I got annoyed enough to look up last years end of year figures.
Gross income for the business - £373,474
Net income to me - £98.578, after wages, business taxes and graft.
Tax - £6500 for the NHS. £21,376 in personal tax.
Supposed amount for us to live on: £70,702.
Remove the kid's trust fund - to pay for her education - £64,702
Hey - I made £20 per hour, at 60 hours per week! Not counting the extra 30 hours a week doing writing jobs to make up the wages in the quiet times. My staff - 4 people and rock solid - have not taken a raise in 4 years. They are hurting hard, even with using the cash and carry discount card to pick up cheap (good) food. I'll not let them go unless they want to - but that also takes skin off me. You think I am not going to slip a hundred or so into the pay packet for a kid's birthday or an anniversary?
I am sitting pretty here. Only have mortgages on 3 (small) homes, since my kids are under employed and depreciation to worry about. Gives us about 1000 a month to live on.
Now you know why I run the frugal recipes thread.
Pay attention to it all, not just the number.
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Having food is not a right. Having health care is not a right. Having housing is not a right. Why? Because one person does not have a right to another person's property or skills. We do have the right to seek the aforementioned things without committing acts of force or fraud. We don't have the right to demand them from others without their agreement.
That's fine, but what do you propose? Should we just let all of the poor people starve and die out from untreated medical conditions? I could be wrong, but it sounds to me that you more or less believe that it isn't your problem, so you shouldn't have to care about it or deal with it.
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It is a small price. For you.
I got annoyed enough to look up last years end of year figures.
Gross income for the business - £373,474
Net income to me - £98.578, after wages, business taxes and graft.
Tax - £6500 for the NHS. £21,376 in personal tax.
Supposed amount for us to live on: £70,702.
Remove the kid's trust fund - to pay for her education - £64,702
Hey - I made £20 per hour, at 60 hours per week! Not counting the extra 30 hours a week doing writing jobs to make up the wages in the quiet times. My staff - 4 people and rock solid - have not taken a raise in 4 years. They are hurting hard, even with using the cash and carry discount card to pick up cheap (good) food. I'll not let them go unless they want to - but that also takes skin off me. You think I am not going to slip a hundred or so into the pay packet for a kid's birthday or an anniversary?
I am sitting pretty here. Only have mortgages on 3 (small) homes, since my kids are under employed and depreciation to worry about. Gives us about 1000 a month to live on.
Now you know why I run the frugal recipes thread.
Pay attention to it all, not just the number.
I think taxes and regulations on your small business should go down.
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That's fine, but what do you propose? Should we just let all of the poor people starve and die out from untreated medical conditions? I could be wrong, but it sounds to be that you more or less believe that it isn't your problem, so you shouldn't have to care about it or deal with it.
Good grief you are dense.
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Good grief you are dense.
Well I guess I wouldn't be a liberal if you didn't think I was dense, huh?
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Good grief you are dense.
I think the word you are looking for is contrary! :tongue2:
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That's fine, but what do you propose? Should we just let all of the poor people starve and die out from untreated medical conditions? I could be wrong, but it sounds to me that you more or less believe that it isn't your problem, so you shouldn't have to care about it or deal with it.
Sticking with the actual business for a second - We have a washer dryer. It is for upholstery and rarely gets used - possibly twice a week. We also have a shower. It is a legal requirement when working with dangerous chemicals, and some of the stuff we use will eat your skin off in under a minute, then keep going.
If they are not in use, the local homeless use them and know they can. Usually a few sandwiches in the office and a pot of soup on the go too. Of course, the funniest time was when our foreman got caustic all over her. She charged into the shower, stripping off en route, to find a homeless guy already in there. He asked if she was a bonus. Came out with the most impressive set of black eyes I have seen, ever.
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That's fine, but what do you propose? Should we just let all of the poor people starve and die out from untreated medical conditions?
Any arrangement which does not depend on the use of force is an option. Free people will figure it out. They don't need 0bama to figure it out for them.
Seriously, you just don't get it, do you? People on this planet can take care of themselves without you and others like you creating a program which depends on guns to keep it in place. Don't you get that?
I could be wrong, but it sounds to be that you more or less believe that it isn't your problem, so you shouldn't have to care about it or deal with it.
Yes, you are wrong. Since you asked, I'll tell you what I consider to be my problem and how I address it. I take care of myself, my wife, and our children. The day will likely come when I'll provide (to one degree or another) food, clothing, shelter, and medical care for my parents and my wife's parents. I donate over 10% of my income to charity, no government force required.
This is what liberals don't get. If you leave us alone to be self-reliant, we'll take care of it. No, you won't get the credit or the political power, but we'll be better off for it. It is the role of individuals to take care of each other. It is not the role of government to centrally plan the care & feeding of the population.
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Sticking with the actual business for a second - We have a washer dryer. It is for upholstery and rarely gets used - possibly twice a week. We also have a shower. It is a legal requirement when working with dangerous chemicals, and some of the stuff we use will eat your skin off in under a minute, then keep going.
If they are not in use, the local homeless use them and know they can. Usually a few sandwiches in the office and a pot of soup on the go too. Of course, the funniest time was when our foreman got caustic all over her. She charged into the shower, stripping off en route, to find a homeless guy already in there. He asked if she was a bonus. Came out with the most impressive set of black eyes I have seen, ever.
You have my respect for doing what you can to help the less fortunate.
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This is what liberals don't get. If you leave us alone to be self-reliant, we'll take care of it. No, you won't get the credit or the political power, but we'll be better off for it. It is the role of individuals to take care of each other. It is not the role of government to centrally plan the care & feeding of the population.
So how is the poverty/health insurance issue going to work itself out? Do you believe that charity alone is/would be enough to handle these issues?
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Dang, rb! 10%? Total hat tip - that is a chunk of change from anyone's income.
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So how is the poverty/health insurance issue going to work itself out? Do you believe that charity alone is/would be enough to handle these issues?
How has the "War on Poverty" worked out??? Everyone rich now?? :shrug:
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How has the "War on Poverty" worked out??? Everyone rich now?? :shrug:
Exactly. Handouts are only a band-aid and are for short term help. The real aid is to foster an environment rich in opportunity, with plenty of encouragement for one to motivate himself to achieve on his own.
Like the War on Drugs, I believe the War on Proverty is an abject failure too.
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So how is the poverty/health insurance issue going to work itself out? Do you believe that charity alone is/would be enough to handle these issues?
I'm trying to be kind here, but you're making it tough. Free individuals will work together to figure it out. They will address poverty. They will address health care. They don't need bureaucrats to figure it out for them. I'm sure charity and mutual aid societies would play a part, but I don't know what specific arrangements would be made by people.
Just because liberals don't give to or volunteer for charities, don't assume that nobody else does or will.
Here's an example of what would happen if health insurance disappeared tomorrow: To address the medical needs of my family, I would visit and/or call doctors. I would propose to them some arrangement for providing health care to myself and my family. He might have a price list on his wall. I might suggest that I pay a monthly fee for unlimited visits. I don't know the exact details of the final agreement, but even though I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I'm bright enough to figure out how to take care of myself and my family. I don't need 0bama and Sebelius to figure it out for me. I don't need them to use the government's guns to force some inefficient arrangement.
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What do you mean by free healthcare? Are you talking about the people that eventually give in and stumble into an ER to get emergency treatment for a condition that could have been handled way before it got that bad, and for a fraction of the cost? That's not actually free healthcare.
She's talking about Medicaid. The poor qualify for Medicaid, which is an existing federally and state-funded program for the poor.
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Exactly. Handouts are only a band-aid and are for short term help. The real aid is to foster an environment rich in opportunity, with plenty of encouragement for one to motivate himself to achieve on his own.
Like the War on Drugs, I believe the War on Proverty is an abject failure too.
I'm glad you feel that way about the war on drugs at least. This is the kind of thing I think the left/right should be working together on. There are some glaring, obvious problems that many from the left and right can and do agree on. I doubt I'll convince any of you to see the healthcare/taxes thing the same way I do, but we can at least deal with the things we agree on.
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There are some glaring, obvious problems that many from the left and right can and do agree on.
Have you read "The Law" yet? I'm telling you, it's good stuff.
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Have you read "The Law" yet? I'm telling you, it's good stuff.
I haven't. I'm getting ready to go to the gym, but when I get back I will wiki it and legitimately look it over.
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As of today - we are paying FIVE TIMES more for welfare in the USA that we pay for education, transportation and NASA combined.
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/102313-676389-obama-spending-of-37-trillion-on-welfare-is-a-record.htm
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As of today - we are paying FIVE TIMES more for welfare in the USA that we pay for education, transportation and NASA combined.
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/102313-676389-obama-spending-of-37-trillion-on-welfare-is-a-record.htm
Be fair, Rap. Transportation is crap ans NASA - not seeing them doing many launches right now. Must mean education is way over funded.