1938 and 2024: Whom do you stand with?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

What is rare to hear from critics of the Israeli military action is what they propose concretely as an alternative.  They'd already pulled out completely from Gaza more than a decade ago, literally dragging settlers by force from their homes to eliminate any Israeli presence in Gaza.   If you send aid to Gaza, Hamas seizes it and uses/sells it to purchase arms with which to attack Israeli.  If Israel tries to seal off the border completely to prevent any future ground incursions, then it gets attacked for "blockading" Gaza.  And of course, even you seal the border, that doesn't stop rockets that fly over walls.

I just don't see what else they are supposed to do.

[AllThatJazzZ]

What is rare to hear from critics of the Israeli military action is what they propose concretely as an alternative.  They'd already pulled out completely from Gaza more than a decade ago, literally dragging settlers by force from their homes to eliminate any Israeli presence in Gaza.   If you send aid to Gaza, Hamas seizes it and uses/sells it to purchase arms with which to attack Israeli.  If Israel tries to seal off the border completely to prevent any future ground incursions, then it gets attacked for "blockading" Gaza.  And of course, even you seal the border, that doesn't stop rockets that fly over walls.

I just don't see what else they are supposed to do.

Die. That's what they're supposed to do. Nothing else will satisfy their haters.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Why does RiV hate the Jews?

It's a mystery. Darn Joooos.

How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people?  How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?

@Wingnut  @mountaineer

[mountaineer]

How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people?  How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?

I believe you have completely mischaracterized anything either of us believes.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Gah! I could hardly believe I read that.
My visit to Auschwitz a few years ago - the thousands of suitcases, purses, shoes, eyeglasses, crutches, pony tails, photos on display - sure didn’t seem like that was about individual Jews. It was a massive attempt at extermination. Nothing individual about it.

In the 1930s (the decade that was being discussed) individual Germans were identified and isolated.  The Holocaust actually began one individual Jew at a time --- which is what makes it all the more horrifying.  @deb

[Right_in_Virginia]

I believe you have completely mischaracterized anything either of us believes.

@mountaineer

You accuse me of hating Jews when I'm trying to find a better path to peace and security for Israel.  I believe I've got what you believe exactly right.

How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people?  How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?

@Wingnut  @mountaineer

[mountaineer]

You accuse me of hating Jews when I'm trying to find a better path to peace and security for Israel.  I believe I've got what you believe exactly right.

Whatever.

[AllThatJazzZ]

@mountaineer

You accuse me of hating Jews when I'm trying to find a better path to peace and security for Israel.  I believe I've got what you believe exactly right.

@Right_in_Virginia

Girl, you're not the One who's going to show up with a solution. There are certain things that can be known before they show up in the news.

[bigheadfred]

The islamites need to have their own "wandering in the desert for forty years" experience before there can ever be peace. @Right_in_Virginia

[Right_in_Virginia]

@Right_in_Virginia

It seems like you're not understanding the spiritual warfare that's taking place regarding Israel. The hatred and pursuit of the Jews will be unending until the Messiah – Whom, sadly, they didn't recognize in His first appearance – returns to complete their ultimate rescue. They will be viscerally and satanically despised until then. But not by me and millions of other Christians.

I'm sure this isn't going to help my case, but I was not raised on the writings of CI Scofield. @AllThatJazzZ

[Right_in_Virginia]

Whatever.

 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@Right_in_Virginia

Why not just say what your specific recommendations are for what Israel should do/change what it is doing?  Not useless vagaries like "have a discussion" or "negotiate a mutually-agreeable solution" that simply beg the question of what that solution would actually be, but an actual concrete plan that is what you believe to be a workable, realistic solution superior to what Israel is doing right now.

Because I think most of us have considered this situation and don't really see a better alternative for Israel.  So...enlighten us.

[roamer_1]

How can neither of you be interested in even discussing a new path that could actually lead to regional alliances, peace, security and prosperity for the Israeli people?  How do you equate continuing a doomed strategy with loving the Jewish people?

Because you are starting from Bullshit. And starting in bullshit can only yield bullshit.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Because you are starting from Bullshit. And starting in bullshit can only yield bullshit.

She's proposed nothing specific so...yeah.  It's just bullshit unless she lays her cards on the table.  We've already laid our cards on the table by backing what Israel is doing right now.  That's our position.

So if she says there is a better path, it's up to her to identify exactly what that better path is if she wants to start a discussion.

[DB]

She's proposed nothing specific so...yeah.  It's just bullshit unless she lays her cards on the table.  We've already laid our cards on the table by backing what Israel is doing right now.  That's our position.

So if she says there is a better path, it's up to her to identify exactly what that better path is if she wants to start a discussion.

Her position is the same as it was for Ukraine. Surrender for "peace".

[roamer_1]

She's proposed nothing specific so...yeah.  It's just bullshit unless she lays her cards on the table.  We've already laid our cards on the table by backing what Israel is doing right now.  That's our position.

So if she says there is a better path, it's up to her to identify exactly what that better path is if she wants to start a discussion.

Nah... Her depiction of Jewish history is bullshit. What she declares to have come from it is bullshit. So from that stance, her 'solutions' will be bullshit... and necessarily not in Israel's favor.

@Right_in_Virginia

[bigheadfred]

She's proposed nothing specific so...yeah.  It's just bullshit unless she lays her cards on the table.  We've already laid our cards on the table by backing what Israel is doing right now.  That's our position.

So if she says there is a better path, it's up to her to identify exactly what that better path is if she wants to start a discussion.

AFAIC there is no better path for the Israelis. It all has to come from the other side.

[roamer_1]

AFAIC there is no better path for the Israelis. It all has to come from the other side.

That's right - and that will not be forthcoming.

Although there is an oddity in that - The Saudis are developing toward Israel. The new prince there seems to have designs toward peace. A welcome if shaky change.

[AllThatJazzZ]

I'm sure this isn't going to help my case, but I was not raised on the writings of CI Scofield. @AllThatJazzZ

@Right_in_Virginia

Neither was I. And I didn't become a believer until I was in my 30s. But once I did, I began to learn from the reference book Scofield learned from. The Jews will suffer persecution until the Savior returns. It's just that simple. You can't fix it. I can't fix it. Neither BB nor Biden can fix it. Not even your boy Trump can fix it.

“Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, ‘Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.’” (Zech. 12:2-3)

The Day of the Lord Zechariah 14:1–15 describes God gathering the nations to lay siege to Jerusalem and when half of the population has been exiled, God comes to deliver the city (2–3), defeating those opposing Jerusalem (verses 12–15).

I don't know God's timing regarding these events, but I do know how to discern the times. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent these things from happening.

And finally, because Christians take Genesis 12:1-3 very seriously, we're not likely to fall away in our support for Israel – even if our nation and our countrymen do.

[Right_in_Virginia]

She's proposed nothing specific so...yeah.  It's just bullshit unless she lays her cards on the table.  We've already laid our cards on the table by backing what Israel is doing right now.  That's our position.

When folks are ready to have an adult conversation about this, beyond the charming snark and insults, I'll happily provide a proposed path, complete with landmarks and a map.  But, no one here appears ready for such a conversation.  I'll check the room temperature from time to time to see if anything has changed.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming ... Thanks for listening. 

[Right_in_Virginia]

@Right_in_Virginia

Neither was I. And I didn't become a believer until I was in my 30s. But once I did, I began to learn from the reference book Scofield learned from. The Jews will suffer persecution until the Savior returns. It's just that simple. You can't fix it. I can't fix it. Neither BB nor Biden can fix it. Not even your boy Trump can fix it.

“Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, ‘Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.’” (Zech. 12:2-3)

The Day of the Lord Zechariah 14:1–15 describes God gathering the nations to lay siege to Jerusalem and when half of the population has been exiled, God comes to deliver the city (2–3), defeating those opposing Jerusalem (verses 12–15).

I don't know God's timing regarding these events, but I do know how to discern the times. There's nothing anyone can do to prevent these things from happening.

And finally, because Christians take Genesis 12:1-3 very seriously, we're not likely to fall away in our support for Israel – even if our nation and our countrymen do.

Thank you @AllThatJazzZ  for this thoughtful and respectful reply.

[LMAO]

AFAIC there is no better path for the Israelis. It all has to come from the other side.

 ...This

[berdie]

When folks are ready to have an adult conversation about this, beyond the charming snark and insults, I'll happily provide a proposed path, complete with landmarks and a map.  But, no one here appears ready for such a conversation.  I'll check the room temperature from time to time to see if anything has changed.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming ... Thanks for listening. 

Well, I'm an adult and more than ready to hear your thoughts. This is not snark...some of the greatest minds in history have tried to resolve this conflict. It takes two sides to tango, imho. I would like to hear your detailed plan.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Here's the unpleasant truth for RiV and others:

There is no solution that the Palestinians are willing to accept that  would be reasonable for Israel to accept.  And/or that hasn't already been tried and failed.

In some ways, Israel dealing with the Palestinians/Hamas is like is trying to deal with the radical BLM activists.   Their demands are so unreasonable that it is impossible to resolve them.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

When folks are ready to have an adult conversation about this, beyond the charming snark and insults, I'll happily provide a proposed path, complete with landmarks and a map.  But, no one here appears ready for such a conversation.  I'll check the room temperature from time to time to see if anything has changed.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming ... Thanks for listening. 

BWAHAHAHAHA!!

What a classic RiV dodge.  First, demand an open and honest discussion about an issue. Then, when we indicate our willingness to do exactly that, she refuses to have the discussion she was just demanding.

Not exactly the first time she's done that, either...