Author Topic: Outrage erupts when authorities toss 2 farmers in prison on 30-day sentences  (Read 4181 times)

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Online Elderberry

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Thanks @Elderberry . The article offers some clarification.

It's not the use of the device but the sale of service using the device. The article does state that it is legal for a rancher to use a sonogram on owned livestock or by a paid employee . So I think it's a pretty fine line between paid employee and hiring a company. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

FWIW...I still think these guys stepped on somebody's toes. The lack of bail is worrisome.


There was no sentencing hearing and no option for bail.

“The state of Pennsylvania had a judge sign an order of imprisonment for two people without ever naming them as parties to a case, without them being charged with any crime, without any hearing before an order of imprisonment was issued, all of which is completely illegal under Pennsylvania law and the United States Constitution.

Offline Kamaji

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That law doesn't include any language about ultrasound.

The Fourth Amendment doesn't include any language about emails - are a person's emails fair game for the government?

Online DB

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There was no sentencing hearing and no option for bail.

“The state of Pennsylvania had a judge sign an order of imprisonment for two people without ever naming them as parties to a case, without them being charged with any crime, without any hearing before an order of imprisonment was issued, all of which is completely illegal under Pennsylvania law and the United States Constitution.

And there it is. If there were justice in this case the sentences should be swapped with the judge. There needs to be real consequences for judges that go well beyond the law.

Online DB

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The Fourth Amendment doesn't include any language about emails - are a person's emails fair game for the government?

The fourth defines what is covered. Emails easily fall under its definitions.

What are the limits of the veterinary law if it isn't specified? And how does anyone know if they are violating it if it isn't defined?

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And there it is. If there were justice in this case the sentences should be swapped with the judge. There needs to be real consequences for judges that go well beyond the law.

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Offline Kamaji

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The fourth defines what is covered. Emails easily fall under its definitions.

What are the limits of the veterinary law if it isn't specified? And how does anyone know if they are violating it if it isn't defined?

And the PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act defines what falls under the term "veterinary medicine" and even an idiot like me can see how use of an ultrasound device to determine whether a cow is pregnant or not falls easily within that definition - much more easily than emails fall under the Fourth Amendment.

PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act, 1974 Act 326, section 3(9):
Quote
"Veterinary medicine" means that branch of medicine
     which deals with the diagnosis, prognosis, treatment,
     administration, prescription, operation or manipulation or
     application of any apparatus or appliance for any disease, pain,
     deformity, defect, injury, wound, physical condition or mental
     condition requiring medication of any animal or for the
     prevention of or the testing for the presence of any disease.

"Physical condition" would quite easily include pregnancy, and the determination of whether a cow is pregnant would fall under the rubric of diagnosis or prognosis, and use of an ultrasound as "application of any apparatus".


Online DB

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And the PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act defines what falls under the term "veterinary medicine" and even an idiot like me can see how use of an ultrasound device to determine whether a cow is pregnant or not falls easily within that definition - much more easily than emails fall under the Fourth Amendment.

PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act, 1974 Act 326, section 3(9):
"Physical condition" would quite easily include pregnancy, and the determination of whether a cow is pregnant would fall under the rubric of diagnosis or prognosis, and use of an ultrasound as "application of any apparatus".

You do know that farmers and ranchers have been determining if a cow is pregnant for eons without veterinarians. So some trade group now owns all means to do so in one fell swoop...

Offline Kamaji

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You do know that farmers and ranchers have been determining if a cow is pregnant for eons without veterinarians. So some trade group now owns all means to do so in one fell swoop...

So the law is stupid.  Big, F**king Deal.  To quote from the late Justice Scalia:  It is possible for a law to be really stupid but still constitutional.

And if these two were looking at their own herds, then they would as I understand the matter, not have run afoul of the law.  But that is not what they did.  They started a business of using ultrasound to determine whether other farmer's cows were pregnant and did so without having a veterinary license, and when they were initially called on the carpet for it, they chose to not pursue changing the law - which would have been a rational thing to do - but instead chose to thumb their noses at the law.

Online DB

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So the law is stupid.  Big, F**king Deal.  To quote from the late Justice Scalia:  It is possible for a law to be really stupid but still constitutional.

And if these two were looking at their own herds, then they would as I understand the matter, not have run afoul of the law.  But that is not what they did.  They started a business of using ultrasound to determine whether other farmer's cows were pregnant and did so without having a veterinary license, and when they were initially called on the carpet for it, they chose to not pursue changing the law - which would have been a rational thing to do - but instead chose to thumb their noses at the law.

Did you read post #100?

Rule of law wasn't what happened.

Offline Kamaji

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Did you read post #100?

Rule of law wasn't what happened.

Did you read post #3:  https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,531038.msg3011071.html#msg3011071

They were both previously found to be practicing veterinary medicine without a license and were ordered to stop by the Veterinary Board, which has statutory authority to enforce the Veterinary Medicine Practice Act.  They chose to ignore those orders, and to continue flouting the law.  They are now serving sentences for contempt.

They had due process when the original cases were started against them.  If they think the law is stupid, then they should have been working to change it.  Thumbing their noses at it got them exactly what they have now - 30-day sentences for contempt.

Offline roamer_1

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It is simply trade groups putting up barriers to protect their turf via government. It has zero to do with safety and everything to do with forcing people to come to them because there are no legal alternatives. Otherwise known as gatekeepers. It is how trade unions operate.

Yep. Every cow measured with a fish finder is a blood test that didn't happen...
And that's some bank when you are talking about large herds... not that there are likely to be any real herds east of the Mississippi...

Online Elderberry

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    This is an unlawful civil contempt order. There are certain procedures that must be followed in a civil contempt action and to our knowledge those were not followed here. Even if they had been followed, the maximum allowable punishment is 15 days in jail which must be conditional, with keys to your own jail cell – meaning there is a condition you can meet to immediately end your incarceration. None of that is true in this case.

    The state claims this is a punishment for not complying with a subpoena to turn over documents, but an agency can’t just order anyone to turn over any document they please. For a subpoena to be valid, the jurisdictional validity of the subpoena must be established, and it has not been in this case. Both men had sought the advice of an attorney regarding the case and had been told that the Veterinary Medical Board had no jurisdiction over them, that the subpoena was therefore invalid, and that there was nothing Ethan and Rusty needed to do.

    There is no evidence that Ethan or Rusty ever saw the order the state claims to have mailed to them last August which threatened them with arrest if they did not comply. Ethan and Rusty were unaware that this was a possibility. It was a complete shock to them and to their families when they were arrested.

He explained his clients were "denied the ability to see the case against them or NoBull Solutions because the state had the docket sealed and hidden – a highly unusual move."

Offline roamer_1

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And the PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act defines what falls under the term "veterinary medicine" and even an idiot like me can see how use of an ultrasound device to determine whether a cow is pregnant or not falls easily within that definition - much more easily than emails fall under the Fourth Amendment.

PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act, 1974 Act 326, section 3(9):
"Physical condition" would quite easily include pregnancy, and the determination of whether a cow is pregnant would fall under the rubric of diagnosis or prognosis, and use of an ultrasound as "application of any apparatus".

No... 'physical condition... requiring medication'.

Offline Kamaji

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No... 'physical condition... requiring medication'.

Doesn't read that way.

Offline berdie

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And the PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act defines what falls under the term "veterinary medicine" and even an idiot like me can see how use of an ultrasound device to determine whether a cow is pregnant or not falls easily within that definition - much more easily than emails fall under the Fourth Amendment.

PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act, 1974 Act 326, section 3(9):
"Physical condition" would quite easily include pregnancy, and the determination of whether a cow is pregnant would fall under the rubric of diagnosis or prognosis, and use of an ultrasound as "application of any apparatus".



quite easily?? Really??

Offline Kamaji

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Online mountaineer

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The NY Post reported on this guy. I posted the story on this thread yesterday.
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Online Smokin Joe

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The Fourth Amendment doesn't include any language about emails - are a person's emails fair game for the government?
Most likely. The Government has been doing a bang-up job of ignoring the rules, since the days of Echelon and Carnivore.

What should be regarded as private, from your bank withdrawals to deposits, and virtually anything you do is not.
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Offline roamer_1

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quite easily?? Really??

Sure reads that way to me...

Offline berdie

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I will also add...that as mentioned, there is a shortage of vets. Most have moved to small animal treatment. I don't blame them. It's far easier to make money from people bringing animals to them rather than go to the location.

There is a shortage of vets in my rural area. There is a large number of cattle, horses, etc. There is a shortage of vets willing to travel.

If a person decides to get into the business of cattle, etc...they better have some "doctoring" knowledge. I'm sure glad I got out of the business.

And I'm sure glad I don't live in PA!

Online Elderberry

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Commonwealth Court denies immediate release, unseals docket, Supreme Court appeal next step for Herr, Wentworth

Ag Moos By Sherry Bunting, Farmshine, May 3, 2024

HARRISBURG, Pa.  —   It has been three weeks since Rusty Herr and Ethan Wentworth of NoBull Solutions, LLC were arrested on April 10 and 11 and separately incarcerated in Lancaster and York County Prisons — their respective counties of residence in Pennsylvania.

A motion for immediate release has been heard and denied by the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania.

“The Commonwealth Court failed to correct their error, so we are taking the case directly to the Supreme Court,” said Robert Barnes, Esq. in a Farmshine interview after the decision.

Judge Michael Wojcik also unsealed the docket in a separate decision.

He heard oral arguments for the motion filed by Barnes Law LLP on behalf of Herr and Wentworth as well as the answer to this request by the Department of State (DOS) Bureau of Professional and Occupational Affairs (BPOA) on April 29, 2024, at 1:30 p.m. via WebEx video conferencing.

According to the docket 325-MD-2021, the BPOA opposed the motion, stating that on May 16, 2023, the court had adjudicated NoBull Solutions in contempt of a previous order dated Nov. 30, 2021, related to enforcement of an investigative subpoena, with conditions for NoBull to purge its contempt through a monetary civil penalty, and that failure to purge may result in issuance of a warrant for their arrest and incarceration.

More: https://agmoos.com/2024/05/02/commonwealth-court-denies-immediate-release-unseals-docket-supreme-court-appeal-next-step-for-herr-wentworth/

Online Wingnut

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With all of the problems in society today, this is what the government wants to focus on? A man using tech for informed customers, without participating in the industrial veterinarian industrial health care complex?
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Online bigheadfred

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With all of the problems in society today, this is what the government wants to focus on? A man using tech for informed customers, without participating in the industrial veterinarian industrial health care complex?

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Offline jafo2010

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Kamaji...
And yet, you're asking those very same courts to simply disregard current PA law - however stupid it might be - and make decisions based on what you feel is the "right" reason.  How would that make them any the less corrupt?


I am not asking a thing.  I just know PA courts are corrupt with power.  Are you aware that in our nearly 250 years of history, only THREE JUDGES in all those years have been removed from office for cause in Pennsylvania.  THREE!!!  With that level of permanency, they pretty much do as they please and do not answer to anyone.  And when someone challenges them, you have from my experience total idiots at higher levels of court in PA.  I am talking total clown act.

When these judges operate with impunity, you do not have justice.  Plain and simple.  That is all I am saying.  And in terms of contempt, I don't know anyone who has appeared in PA courts to have anything but contempt for how they operate.  Once elected, they stay for life, regardless how poor they are in their jobs.  This approach is not one that promotes sound judicial practice.  These pukes should face a challenger every X years, where if they are not performing well, they can be removed via the ballot box.  PA has just a YES/NO retention question and does not open these judgeships up to be challenge.

And please do not assume because an individual is a judge, they hold some higher level knowledge of the law.  Far from it.  Last time I was in court, the idiot judge turned and asked my lawyer three times questions about what the law was in reference to 2 or 3 cases that were conducted ahead of us.  She was clueless.

An anecdotal story might help you understand.  My neighbor, a retired sheriff for Allegheny County in PA, he was in the yard, and we struck up a conversation.  He asked me where my wife and kids were, he hadn't seen them in awhile.  I told him we were getting divorced and she insisted on going to live with her mother in another state.  He asked who the judge was.  I told him.  He said, his oldest son was getting divorced, and he had the same judge.  He went on to tell me the nightmare his son was going through.  His son had three children.  The wife coached the oldest son, age 11, that if he killed his father, she will give him this and that (i.e. electronic game set, etc stuff).  The boy stabs his father in the back, does not kill him.  When he spoke to his attorney about what transpired, the attorney told him, no sense in bringing the matter up in this judge's court because she does not care what the mother did illegally.  She draws and quarters every father, no matter what.

That is PA justice.  And that was my experience.  When I got divorced, fathers had no rights.  Fathers had to sue to establish their rights as a parent.  That was a minimum cost of $8,000+.  Many fathers I knew did not have the money to spend.  My attorney told me, you could get joint custody.  It will cost $8,000+, you would absolutely get joint custody, and when your youngest turns 15 years of age in 14 months, you would not get to see your kids because the mother is no longer forced to provide you with access to children once they turn 15 years of age.  I got to see my kids a few times since then, and have not seen them in 13 years.  And by all standards, I was an excellent father.  My ex had mental issues that she refused to recognize, told my kids incredulous lies, and never once did I have an opportunity to share my side of anything.  I am now permanently estranged from my kids, and the courts and the way they operate played a major role in all that.  The legislature has since changed the law, giving fathers joint custody when couples part, but that change happened after my kids were grown.

I would never live in PA again.  I do not even enjoy returning to visit friends and family because of my rotten experience there.  I live in Georgia now, which makes an effort to treat both sides in a divorce more equitably.  Huge difference in the two states.


Offline roamer_1

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"In the end, they're not coming after me. They're coming after you — and I'm just standing in their way,".

Except that wasn't true... He wasn't in their way at all.