Outrage erupts when authorities toss 2 farmers in prison on 30-day sentences

[Elderberry]

Thanks @Elderberry . The article offers some clarification.

It's not the use of the device but the sale of service using the device. The article does state that it is legal for a rancher to use a sonogram on owned livestock or by a paid employee . So I think it's a pretty fine line between paid employee and hiring a company. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

FWIW...I still think these guys stepped on somebody's toes. The lack of bail is worrisome.

There was no sentencing hearing and no option for bail.

“The state of Pennsylvania had a judge sign an order of imprisonment for two people without ever naming them as parties to a case, without them being charged with any crime, without any hearing before an order of imprisonment was issued, all of which is completely illegal under Pennsylvania law and the United States Constitution.

[Kamaji]

That law doesn't include any language about ultrasound.

The Fourth Amendment doesn't include any language about emails - are a person's emails fair game for the government?

[DB]

There was no sentencing hearing and no option for bail.

“The state of Pennsylvania had a judge sign an order of imprisonment for two people without ever naming them as parties to a case, without them being charged with any crime, without any hearing before an order of imprisonment was issued, all of which is completely illegal under Pennsylvania law and the United States Constitution.

And there it is. If there were justice in this case the sentences should be swapped with the judge. There needs to be real consequences for judges that go well beyond the law.

[DB]

The Fourth Amendment doesn't include any language about emails - are a person's emails fair game for the government?

The fourth defines what is covered. Emails easily fall under its definitions.

What are the limits of the veterinary law if it isn't specified? And how does anyone know if they are violating it if it isn't defined?

[Bigun]

And there it is. If there were justice in this case the sentences should be swapped with the judge. There needs to be real consequences for judges that go well beyond the law.

 

[Kamaji]

The fourth defines what is covered. Emails easily fall under its definitions.

What are the limits of the veterinary law if it isn't specified? And how does anyone know if they are violating it if it isn't defined?

And the PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act defines what falls under the term "veterinary medicine" and even an idiot like me can see how use of an ultrasound device to determine whether a cow is pregnant or not falls easily within that definition - much more easily than emails fall under the Fourth Amendment.

PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act, 1974 Act 326, section 3(9):

"Veterinary medicine" means that branch of medicine
     which deals with the diagnosis, prognosis, treatment,
     administration, prescription, operation or manipulation or
     application of any apparatus or appliance for any disease, pain,
     deformity, defect, injury, wound, physical condition or mental
     condition requiring medication of any animal or for the
     prevention of or the testing for the presence of any disease.

"Physical condition" would quite easily include pregnancy, and the determination of whether a cow is pregnant would fall under the rubric of diagnosis or prognosis, and use of an ultrasound as "application of any apparatus".

[DB]

And the PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act defines what falls under the term "veterinary medicine" and even an idiot like me can see how use of an ultrasound device to determine whether a cow is pregnant or not falls easily within that definition - much more easily than emails fall under the Fourth Amendment.

PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act, 1974 Act 326, section 3(9):
"Physical condition" would quite easily include pregnancy, and the determination of whether a cow is pregnant would fall under the rubric of diagnosis or prognosis, and use of an ultrasound as "application of any apparatus".

You do know that farmers and ranchers have been determining if a cow is pregnant for eons without veterinarians. So some trade group now owns all means to do so in one fell swoop...

[Kamaji]

You do know that farmers and ranchers have been determining if a cow is pregnant for eons without veterinarians. So some trade group now owns all means to do so in one fell swoop...

So the law is stupid.  Big, F**king Deal.  To quote from the late Justice Scalia:  It is possible for a law to be really stupid but still constitutional.

And if these two were looking at their own herds, then they would as I understand the matter, not have run afoul of the law.  But that is not what they did.  They started a business of using ultrasound to determine whether other farmer's cows were pregnant and did so without having a veterinary license, and when they were initially called on the carpet for it, they chose to not pursue changing the law - which would have been a rational thing to do - but instead chose to thumb their noses at the law.

[DB]

So the law is stupid.  Big, F**king Deal.  To quote from the late Justice Scalia:  It is possible for a law to be really stupid but still constitutional.

And if these two were looking at their own herds, then they would as I understand the matter, not have run afoul of the law.  But that is not what they did.  They started a business of using ultrasound to determine whether other farmer's cows were pregnant and did so without having a veterinary license, and when they were initially called on the carpet for it, they chose to not pursue changing the law - which would have been a rational thing to do - but instead chose to thumb their noses at the law.

Did you read post #100?

Rule of law wasn't what happened.

[Kamaji]

Did you read post #100?

Rule of law wasn't what happened.

Did you read post #3:  https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,531038.msg3011071.html#msg3011071

They were both previously found to be practicing veterinary medicine without a license and were ordered to stop by the Veterinary Board, which has statutory authority to enforce the Veterinary Medicine Practice Act.  They chose to ignore those orders, and to continue flouting the law.  They are now serving sentences for contempt.

They had due process when the original cases were started against them.  If they think the law is stupid, then they should have been working to change it.  Thumbing their noses at it got them exactly what they have now - 30-day sentences for contempt.

[roamer_1]

It is simply trade groups putting up barriers to protect their turf via government. It has zero to do with safety and everything to do with forcing people to come to them because there are no legal alternatives. Otherwise known as gatekeepers. It is how trade unions operate.

Yep. Every cow measured with a fish finder is a blood test that didn't happen...
And that's some bank when you are talking about large herds... not that there are likely to be any real herds east of the Mississippi...

[Elderberry]

    This is an unlawful civil contempt order. There are certain procedures that must be followed in a civil contempt action and to our knowledge those were not followed here. Even if they had been followed, the maximum allowable punishment is 15 days in jail which must be conditional, with keys to your own jail cell – meaning there is a condition you can meet to immediately end your incarceration. None of that is true in this case.

    The state claims this is a punishment for not complying with a subpoena to turn over documents, but an agency can’t just order anyone to turn over any document they please. For a subpoena to be valid, the jurisdictional validity of the subpoena must be established, and it has not been in this case. Both men had sought the advice of an attorney regarding the case and had been told that the Veterinary Medical Board had no jurisdiction over them, that the subpoena was therefore invalid, and that there was nothing Ethan and Rusty needed to do.

    There is no evidence that Ethan or Rusty ever saw the order the state claims to have mailed to them last August which threatened them with arrest if they did not comply. Ethan and Rusty were unaware that this was a possibility. It was a complete shock to them and to their families when they were arrested.

He explained his clients were "denied the ability to see the case against them or NoBull Solutions because the state had the docket sealed and hidden – a highly unusual move."

[roamer_1]

And the PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act defines what falls under the term "veterinary medicine" and even an idiot like me can see how use of an ultrasound device to determine whether a cow is pregnant or not falls easily within that definition - much more easily than emails fall under the Fourth Amendment.

PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act, 1974 Act 326, section 3(9):
"Physical condition" would quite easily include pregnancy, and the determination of whether a cow is pregnant would fall under the rubric of diagnosis or prognosis, and use of an ultrasound as "application of any apparatus".

No... 'physical condition... requiring medication'.

[Kamaji]

No... 'physical condition... requiring medication'.

Doesn't read that way.

[berdie]

And the PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act defines what falls under the term "veterinary medicine" and even an idiot like me can see how use of an ultrasound device to determine whether a cow is pregnant or not falls easily within that definition - much more easily than emails fall under the Fourth Amendment.

PA Veterinary Medicine Practice Act, 1974 Act 326, section 3(9):
"Physical condition" would quite easily include pregnancy, and the determination of whether a cow is pregnant would fall under the rubric of diagnosis or prognosis, and use of an ultrasound as "application of any apparatus".

quite easily?? Really??

[Kamaji]

[mountaineer]

The NY Post reported on this guy. I posted the story on this thread yesterday.

[Smokin Joe]

The Fourth Amendment doesn't include any language about emails - are a person's emails fair game for the government?

Most likely. The Government has been doing a bang-up job of ignoring the rules, since the days of Echelon and Carnivore.

What should be regarded as private, from your bank withdrawals to deposits, and virtually anything you do is not.

[roamer_1]

quite easily?? Really??

Sure reads that way to me...

[berdie]

I will also add...that as mentioned, there is a shortage of vets. Most have moved to small animal treatment. I don't blame them. It's far easier to make money from people bringing animals to them rather than go to the location.

There is a shortage of vets in my rural area. There is a large number of cattle, horses, etc. There is a shortage of vets willing to travel.

If a person decides to get into the business of cattle, etc...they better have some "doctoring" knowledge. I'm sure glad I got out of the business.

And I'm sure glad I don't live in PA!

[Elderberry]

Commonwealth Court denies immediate release, unseals docket, Supreme Court appeal next step for Herr, Wentworth

Ag Moos By Sherry Bunting, Farmshine, May 3, 2024

HARRISBURG, Pa.  —   It has been three weeks since Rusty Herr and Ethan Wentworth of NoBull Solutions, LLC were arrested on April 10 and 11 and separately incarcerated in Lancaster and York County Prisons — their respective counties of residence in Pennsylvania.

A motion for immediate release has been heard and denied by the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania.

“The Commonwealth Court failed to correct their error, so we are taking the case directly to the Supreme Court,” said Robert Barnes, Esq. in a Farmshine interview after the decision.

Judge Michael Wojcik also unsealed the docket in a separate decision.

He heard oral arguments for the motion filed by Barnes Law LLP on behalf of Herr and Wentworth as well as the answer to this request by the Department of State (DOS) Bureau of Professional and Occupational Affairs (BPOA) on April 29, 2024, at 1:30 p.m. via WebEx video conferencing.

According to the docket 325-MD-2021, the BPOA opposed the motion, stating that on May 16, 2023, the court had adjudicated NoBull Solutions in contempt of a previous order dated Nov. 30, 2021, related to enforcement of an investigative subpoena, with conditions for NoBull to purge its contempt through a monetary civil penalty, and that failure to purge may result in issuance of a warrant for their arrest and incarceration.

More: https://agmoos.com/2024/05/02/commonwealth-court-denies-immediate-release-unseals-docket-supreme-court-appeal-next-step-for-herr-wentworth/