Author Topic: Haley campaign targets DeSantis ahead of debate: ‘These boots are made for lying’  (Read 4376 times)

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Offline Hoodat

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Nope.... you are more likely a paid surrogate operative, with intent of malice.

And zero integrity.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline catfish1957

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And zero integrity.

Yep.....   the slime and sleaze of Trump/Stone/Pecker operation permeates down the ranks.........  It's a travesty that we've allowed Tumpy to repeat his '16 antics.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline libertybele

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Nah, I don't need to drop a note to Haley. I have no intention whatsoever of voting for her. 

But @Right_in_Virginia I still would like to know exactly what lie it is that you believe she is spewing about DeSantis.

Fixating on boots and heels as opposed to the invasion and crisis at our southern border, the mess in the ME and our skyrocketing inflation. Got it.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline catfish1957

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Nah, I don't need to drop a note to Haley. I have no intention whatsoever of voting for her. 

But @Right_in_Virginia I still would like to know exactly what lie it is that you believe she is spewing about DeSantis.

Fixating on boots and heels as opposed to the invasion and crisis at our southern border, the mess in the ME and our skyrocketing inflation. Got it.

My major malfunction with the bitch is she is a 2nd generation newcomer, who thought it was smart to crap on 200_ years of southern heritage, even though many of those who had ancestors in that war did not own slaves.

Hope she burns in hell.
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Nah, I don't need to drop a note to Haley. I have no intention whatsoever of voting for her. 

But @Right_in_Virginia I still would like to know exactly what lie it is that you believe she is spewing about DeSantis.

Fixating on boots and heels as opposed to the invasion and crisis at our southern border, the mess in the ME and our skyrocketing inflation. Got it.

If you want to know what Haley is spewing, just watch the ad and judge *her* veracity for yourself.

This Haley ad was interesting because it led many to believe it was a prelude to fireworks between the two at the upcoming debate.  That panned out after Vivek body slammed Nikki and Ronny faded into the shadows.

I do, however, assure you I am not fixated on either DeSantis or his boots.  I'm sorry if this will offend you, but both have been reduced to comic relief  ---- much needed during these stressful times.

It really is a pity there's no way of proving what I choose *not* to post regarding Ronny.  I suspect I could use the credit.   :laugh:

Goodnight,  @libertybele  happy77

Offline Hoodat

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If you want to know what Haley is spewing, just watch the ad and judge *her* veracity for yourself.

Haley didn't say this.  You did.

This ad is coming from outside MAGA and it's about Ronny's propensity to lie.  He's quite good at it.

Again, what was the lie?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline LMAO

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Haley didn't say this.  You did.

Again, what was the lie?

You’re wasting your time with that one. If history is any guide, you’re not gonna get an answer

I think she knows she’s been caught… Again.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 04:52:29 am by LMAO »
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

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My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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 :facepalm2:   For heavens sake, boys, watch Haleys' ad:  "These boots were made for lying".  She makes her point pretty damn clear.

https://youtu.be/jyXgAutaagU?si=oPuRSTfNuJJ4Rj0y


@LMAO @Hoodat @catfish1957

Offline Hoodat

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:facepalm2:   For heavens sake, boys, watch Haleys' ad:  "These boots were made for lying".  She makes her point pretty damn clear.

Again, your statement:  "This ad is coming from outside MAGA and it's about Ronny's propensity to lie.  He's quite good at it."

Again, where is the lie?

If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Sighlass

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Let's not forget how they bragged about getting Rick Scott's endorsement and then criticized DeSantis for not overturning Rick Scott's red flag laws.  Completely forgetting that Trump supported those very same red flag laws.  Logic on acid.

Hold it, so it was Rick Scott's that passed the red flag laws... Thank you for pointing that out... I was under the impression they were DeSantis (thanks RiV /s) ... @Hoodat
Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....

Offline catfish1957

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Hold it, so it was Rick Scott's that passed the red flag laws... Thank you for pointing that out... I was under the impression they were DeSantis (thanks RiV /s) ... @Hoodat

The similarites of the Trump/Stone/Pecker slime machine against Cruz (in 2016) and DeSantis (2024) qre uncanny.

Trump has become an expert in ruining via slander the character and reputations of good conservatives.  F Tump!!!
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Hold it, so it was Rick Scott's that passed the red flag laws... Thank you for pointing that out... I was under the impression they were DeSantis (thanks RiV /s) ... @Hoodat

Nope.  RIV said Ronny didn't use his super legislative Republican majorities to repeal the law....and under his administration the law has been used to confiscate guns over 900 times.  @Sighlass

No worries, though.  I'm sure Ronny has a team of experts rewriting the history on all of this.   :laugh:

Quote
DeSantis hopes red flag laws will help thwart future shootings
Fox 13,  Aug 8, 2019

TAMPA, Fla. (FOX 13) - Governor Ron DeSantis says the "recesses of the internet" are a factor in our country's uptick in mass shootings.

"I think when you have people that have pathological ideologies," DeSantis said. "If you didn't have places to congregate, they would not have strength in numbers."

In Florida, the teen behind the Parkland school shooting made disturbing posts on social media, which included gruesome Instagram photos of animals he claimed to have killed.

"Being able to go and trade these ideas in an online community, I think that radicalizes people," DeSantis said.

But the solution, DeSantis says, isn't to have the government policing speech. "Typically, the government isn't policing or holding people accountable just for speech," he said. "It requires incitement, or to be a threat."

If there is a threat, there are options. Florida's so-called red flag laws allow law enforcement to take away a person's guns temporarily if they determine a person is an immediate threat.

Many, including the governor, are behind it.

"I just want us to be responsive to that. The vast majorities of these instances have had red flags," he said. "The Marjory Stoneman Douglas report made that clear. So I think we need to identify that and do something about it."


Last week, Florida launched a threat assessment portal for schools and law enforcement to share information, which will be confidential. A statewide app called Fortify Florida allows anyone to report suspicious activity anonymously.


https://www.fox13news.com/news/desantis-hopes-red-flag-laws-will-help-thwart-future-shootings


cc:  @catfish1957




« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 06:43:23 am by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline Hoodat

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Nope.  RIV said Ronny didn't use his super legislative Republican majorities to repeal the law....and under his administration the law has been used to confiscate guns over 900 times.  @Sighlass

Actually, @Right_in_Virginia said that DeSantis actively use red flag laws.  Which of course is completely false since these laws are enforced at the local level.  And now she claims to have said something else.

She also boasted of Rick Scott's endorsement of Trump.  Yeah, that Swamp creature Rick Scott.  The one who put in place those very same red flag laws - the laws that Donald Trump supported.  Hypocrisy on top of hypocrisy.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Quote
DeSantis hopes red flag laws will help thwart future shootings
Fox 13,  Aug 8, 2019

TAMPA, Fla. (FOX 13) - Governor Ron DeSantis says the "recesses of the internet" are a factor in our country's uptick in mass shootings.

"I think when you have people that have pathological ideologies," DeSantis said. "If you didn't have places to congregate, they would not have strength in numbers."

In Florida, the teen behind the Parkland school shooting made disturbing posts on social media, which included gruesome Instagram photos of animals he claimed to have killed.

"Being able to go and trade these ideas in an online community, I think that radicalizes people," DeSantis said.

But the solution, DeSantis says, isn't to have the government policing speech. "Typically, the government isn't policing or holding people accountable just for speech," he said. "It requires incitement, or to be a threat."

If there is a threat, there are options. Florida's so-called red flag laws allow law enforcement to take away a person's guns temporarily if they determine a person is an immediate threat.

Many, including the governor, are behind it.

"I just want us to be responsive to that. The vast majorities of these instances have had red flags," he said. "The Marjory Stoneman Douglas report made that clear. So I think we need to identify that and do something about it."


Last week, Florida launched a threat assessment portal for schools and law enforcement to share information, which will be confidential. A statewide app called Fortify Florida allows anyone to report suspicious activity anonymously.


https://www.fox13news.com/news/desantis-hopes-red-flag-laws-will-help-thwart-future-shootings

Just want to point out that nowhere in all of this does DeSantis say he supports red flag laws.  The threat assessment portal that Florida launched (which is what the article is really about) is totally separate from the laws that Trump supporter Rick Scott put in place.  Once again, @Right_in_Virginia is spreading falsehoods on this forum in a deliberate attempt to deceive others.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Trump says he supports "red flag laws" as means of gun control

AUG 5, 2019


Donald Trump addressed the nation on Monday in the wake of two deadly mass shootings in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio over the weekend. He blamed violent video games and mental health for the shooting and called for "red flag laws" as a measure of gun control. Weijia Jiang and Caitlin Huey-Burns joined CBSN to break down the president's response to the shootings, as well as that of 2020 candidates.


https://www.cbsnews.com/video/trump-says-he-supports-red-flag-laws-as-means-of-gun-control/
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Actually, @Right_in_Virginia said that DeSantis actively use red flag laws.  Which of course is completely false since these laws are enforced at the local level.  And now she claims to have said something else.

She also boasted of Rick Scott's endorsement of Trump.  Yeah, that Swamp creature Rick Scott.  The one who put in place those very same red flag laws - the laws that Donald Trump supported.  Hypocrisy on top of hypocrisy.

Good to see you've surrendered your silly posts about Haley's campaign ad against Ronny and have been forced to move attention to me and back to Ron's support for Red Flag Laws ---- which we have already discussed ad nauseam. 

Ron admitted he supports the laws for Florida and considers them necessary, kept them on the books in spite of a Republican super majority in the Statehouse, expanded the law to include an anonymous tip line for public use and under his leadership guns have been confiscated more than 900 times

President Trump floated red flag laws after the Parkland shooting, but wisely threw the idea in the trashcan.  DeSantis has kept the law, expanded it and his LEOs use it regularly.

And you know all this. 

So how about you release your diversionary hijack of this thread and allow it to return to its topic?   Give it a shot.

Offline LMAO

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So I did some exploring beyond just soundbites from a posted campaign ad regarding DeSantis’s position on fracking and oil exploration and it appears both Haley and DeSantis are spinning a bit here. I also watched the parts of the debate were Haley and DeSantis sparred over this issue and there’s a lot that’s been left out of that ad by Haley. I understand that’s just the nature of politics. But then we have a responsibility as voters to explore beyond just the soundbites.

Here are the facts

Analysis
DeSantis’ Record on Fossil Fuels
Haley scuffled with DeSantis about his record on two types of oil extraction — hydraulic fracturing and offshore drilling.

“You banned fracking, you banned offshore drilling,” Haley said, referring to actions DeSantis took early in his tenure as governor of Florida.

DeSantis denied banning either one, calling the claim, “ridiculous,” and pointing to a constitutional amendment voters passed prohibiting offshore drilling in the state.

Here are the facts:


https://www.factcheck.org/2023/09/factchecking-the-second-gop-primary-debate/

When DeSantis was running for governor of Florida in 2018, he pledged to ban both fracking and offshore drilling.

His campaign website at the time said, “With Florida’s geological makeup of limestone and shallow water sources, fracking presents a danger to our state that is not acceptable. On day one, Ron DeSantis will advocate to the Florida Legislature to pass legislation that bans fracking in the state.”

Regarding offshore drilling, the site said, “Our coast is one of the most important economic drivers of Florida and Ron DeSantis has a proven track record in supporting measures to ban offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. Florida has seen firsthand the dangers that off-shore drilling can bring to our beaches and shorelines. Starting day one, DeSantis will utilize his unique relationship with President Trump and his administration to ensure that oil drilling never occurs off Florida’s coastlines.”

It’s worth noting that, during his three terms as a congressman starting in 2012, DeSantis did vote in favor of an amendment that would have stifled offshore drilling in the Eastern Gulf of Mexico. But he also voted in favor of various actions that would have expanded drilling off the coasts of other states, such as Alaska, according to the League of Conservation Voters, which tracks the environmental voting records of elected officials.

On the ballot with DeSantis in that November 2018 election was an amendment to the state constitution that would ban both offshore drilling and, in an odd pairing, vaping in indoor workplaces. The amendment passed with 69% of the vote.

DeSantis took office on Jan. 8, 2019, and he signed an executive order two days later directing the Florida Department of Environmental Protection to “[t]ake necessary actions to adamantly oppose all off-shore oil and gas activities off every coast in Florida and hydraulic fracturing in Florida.”

Although there have been some legislative attempts in Florida to ban fracking, they have failed.

So, it’s true that DeSantis has supported bans on both fracking and offshore drilling in Florida. But he hasn’t actually implemented bans, and the prohibition on offshore drilling in the state was the result of a constitutional amendment.



So, it appears that DeSantis’s record on energy is mixed when in Congress vs governor.And Haley’s charge has some merit to it if she was speaking of his record as governor and DeSantis is spinning a bit. And the problem with politicians spinning is we have to figure out their real positions on issues. But a “propensity to lie?” Really? She took an ad that has little soundbites, used it to claim that Ron DeSantis has a propensity to lie, and when asked what the lie was, took no responsibility for her claim.

It appears that Donald Trump not be able just to walk into another nomination and losing to Joe Biden the last three election cycles has discombobulated her psyche a bit.






FWIW, I support energy exploration but I also agree there are places that it isn’t appropriate and I strongly disagree with  red flag laws regardless who supports them


« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 04:55:53 pm by LMAO »
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline LMAO

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And here’s more

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2023/11/08/what-is-fracking-ron-desantis-nikki-haley-debate/71511808007/#


Sierra Club spokesperson Jonathon Berman denied Haley's claim that the non-profit group supports the Florida governor. He told USA TODAY that the group has "repeatedly condemned DeSantis' actions and policies" and even gave him an F in their 2023 legislative scorecard.
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline Hoodat

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There is a big difference between supporting fracking in general and supporting fracking in Florida.   The entire State of Florida sits on top of an aquifier, making fracking both impractical and unnecessary.  Maybe @Smokin Joe can give better insight on this.  As for offshore drilling, there has been a ban on that since 1989.  Florida derives billions in sustainable revenue from its pristine beaches, far more than can be derived from drilling.

But then this thread isn't about fracking.  It is about whether Governor DeSantis lied as one poster has claimed.  And so far, no lie has surfaced.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline LMAO

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And a ban on fracking and offshore drilling in the state of Florida is also supported by other Florida Republicans for the simple reason I stated, and that’s their tourism industry. As I explored this issue further, Ron DeSantis has explained why he supported such bans in Florida in the past. And it is entirely appropriate to not want mining or energy exploration on certain grounds

This is why responsible voters looked beyond the the 30 second ads featuring sound bites. This is what the media did with Donald Trump’s “very fine people” comment.

That ad made Ron DeSantis sound like AOC

« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 02:09:42 pm by LMAO »
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

Barry Goldwater

http://www.usdebtclock.org

My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Offline Hoodat

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Good to see you've surrendered your silly posts about Haley's campaign ad

I never offered any comment on Haley's ad.  So "surrendered your silly posts about Haley's campaign ad" never happened.  Let's stick to what I actually said instead of inventing a false narrative.


and have been forced to move attention to me and back to Ron's support for Red Flag Laws ----

DeSantis doesn't support red flag laws.  Another false narrative propagated by you.  And a highly hypocritical one at that since it is Donald Trump and his Swamp supporter Rick Scott who have gone on record supporting red flag laws.  Don't you find it both dishonest and hypocritical to falsely criticize DeSantis for supporting red flag laws while at the same time supporting a candidate who actually does support red flag laws?  Inquiring minds want to know.


---- which we have already discussed ad nauseam. 

We?  You have yet to address your dishonesty and hypocrisy on this matter.


Ron admitted he supports the laws for Florida and considers them necessary

AGAIN, show me the quote.  You keep making this claim, yet fail utterly to show where DeSantis ever said it.  It is what the Bible refers to as "bearing false witness".  But then you knew that already since you have been doing it constantly on this forum ever since I first arrived in 2016.


kept them on the books in spite of a Republican super majority in the Statehouse

The legislature passes and repeals laws - not the governor.


expanded the law to include an anonymous tip line for public use

Not an expansion of the law.  It is independent of the law.


and under his leadership guns have been confiscated more than 900 times

Not under his leadership.  This law is enforced at the local level, not the State level.  The governor has nothing to do with what the City of Orlando chooses to do.


President Trump floated red flag laws after the Parkland shooting, but wisely threw the idea in the trashcan.

Uh, no.  See the video of Trump giving his enthusiastic support of red flag laws:  https://www.cbsnews.com/video/trump-says-he-supports-red-flag-laws-as-means-of-gun-control/
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Online Smokin Joe

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There is a big difference between supporting fracking in general and supporting fracking in Florida.   The entire State of Florida sits on top of an aquifier, making fracking both impractical and unnecessary.  Maybe @Smokin Joe can give better insight on this.  As for offshore drilling, there has been a ban on that since 1989.  Florida derives billions in sustainable revenue from its pristine beaches, far more than can be derived from drilling.

But then this thread isn't about fracking.  It is about whether Governor DeSantis lied as one poster has claimed.  And so far, no lie has surfaced.
The issue of fraccing is moot where there are no oil wells, but Florida does have oil, too, and it is causing a quiet kerfuffle.

Here is one take on the issues: https://www.nrdc.org/bio/alison-kelly/south-floridas-dirty-secret-oil
Production levels appear to be about 1.2 million barrels of oil annually. https://ycharts.com/indicators/florida_crude_oil_production Reserves are about 1/10 of 1% of US reserves.

The fight is on, not with just the usual environmental groups, but because the mineral rights are in private hands, and the overlying surface was made into Big Cypress National Preserve. Congress allowed for the production of Oil, which was discovered in 1943, long before the preserve was created.
For a timeline of events: http://www.collierresources.com/history-of-oil-exploration-development
So, in a sense, this is a local issue, of time and place where oil is produced, and whether taking from the owners of the minerals the ability to produce them constitutes a taking, and if so, how to value that.
(I consider a similar issue where relatives planted Red Oak trees before the civil war on 22 acres of land my parents own, but State and Federal agencies will not let them what is likely millions of dollars of timber.)

The statements I read display a limited general knowledge of geology, oil drilling, and fraccing.
By no means are aquifers unique to Florida, in fact, most of the nation has one underfoot.
Aside from freshwater rivers and lakes (often fed in part by aquifers), those aquifers are the main water source for virtually all of humanity.

An oil well is not, as some might think, just a hole in the ground.

Individual States adopt regulations for their construction, but industry best practices are involved as well. Additionally, the Bureau of Land Management has adopted standards for pad construction, lease roads, etc, which have generally become best practices for the industry, at least in the areas I have worked. Often, those standards were adopted by the BLM from the oil companies, who practiced them to avoid legal issues should something go wrong. 
For the wellbore itself, generally, the first 50-150 ft. are drilled through surface material, and a steel conductor pipe is set. This protects near surface aquifers, but also keeps the surface material from sloughing into the hole during the next phase of drilling. From there, the hole is drilled using native materials and fresh water to a depth beyond that of the deepest freshwater aquifer in the area. That hole is subsequently lined with steel casing, and that casing is cemented in place, at a depth ranging from 1500 ft. to 4500 ft., depending on the geology of the area.
Then the oil well is drilled from that casing; in the case of a horizontal well, through the curve and into the target zone.
That interval is also lined with casing, extending to the surface. That casing is also cemented in place.
The remainder of the well is drilled in the target stratum, horizontally or at a very high angle to the vertical (usually 84 to 92 degrees from vertical). Then that section of the well is lined and the liner cemented in place, the well is displaced with production fluid (usually salt water of sufficient density to keep adequate hydrostatic pressure on the hole).

That's the end of the drilling phase, the drilling rig is moved off, and the location handed off to the production crews. In the upper part of the hole, there are now the conductor pipe, the surface casing, and the intermediate casing with their respective cement layers on the outside of each, between any aquifer outside the casing and the wellbore. The cement jobs are checked for integrity using Casing Bond Logs (like an ultrasound to identify any irregularities in the cement so they can be remediated, if found). Here, (and I cannot speak to the regions I have not worked in), about the only way to contaminate the surface aquifers is to spill something.

Fraccing is a production enhancement technique often used in combination with perforating the liner in the zone of interest. Perforating is usually done using shaped charges which blow holes through the liner and surrounding cement and into the producing formation. When those segments (or that entire horizontal wellbore) are ready, frac crews hook into the well, set packers to isolate the segment of the hole being fracced, and pump water and sand with a few chemicals through those perforations in the production liner and into the rock of the producing formation, at pressures high enough to crack the rock. Those induced fractures are propped open by the sand, which allows fluids to pass through the porosity between the sand grains.

The fracturing occurs at the depth where the oil will be produced, usually between 9500 and 11000 ft. below the surface (the reason for that is that is the depth of burial that source rocks generally reach thermal maturity, producing the hydrocarbons that are the target of the whole operation, although Oil and Natural Gas can and do occur at greater depths).  That pressure is roughly two miles down, and the same geological layers that act as seals to keep the oil in the rock down there keep those frac fluids and the oil and gas contained in that geological reservoir.

In a few areas, that oil and gas has migrated from greater depths to shallower ones, but those reservoirs usually exhibit pressure above what they ordinarily would at the depths where the oil and gas formed. Surface seepage is usually more tame, occurring over larger areas and oveer a much longer time. While this is something that may require a bit of special handling to keep the well under control, fraccing is usually not necessary except as a secondary recovery method, or at the very least, not needed until the reservoir has depleted enough to reduce the overpressure.

In Florida, the dirty little secret is that there is oil, that the area it is in is considered environmentally sensitive, and the question is one of the legalities of keeping the owners from producing it. Offshore, the quandary is simple economics, weighing the economic benefit of producing oil and gas off beaches that are an enormous revenue source for the State.
If there is oil out there, it will keep for now, and the oil slicks will come from beachy people covered with suntan slickum.

The question exists, of whether DeSantis will advocate for the entire country what he advocates for Florida: limited drilling onshore and a ban offshore, and a fear of fraccing, which can be (and commonly is) conducted without incident. DeSantis has indicated that he would not extend the Florida policies to the rest of the country.

Depending on how the wells are constructed, the threat to near surface aquifers and even surface waters is minimal if the regulations and procedures are sufficient.  They are likely to collect more oil from parking lot runoff.
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline LMAO

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The issue of fraccing is moot where there are no oil wells, but Florida does have oil, too, and it is causing a quiet kerfuffle.

Here is one take on the issues: https://www.nrdc.org/bio/alison-kelly/south-floridas-dirty-secret-oil
Production levels appear to be about 1.2 million barrels of oil annually. https://ycharts.com/indicators/florida_crude_oil_production Reserves are about 1/10 of 1% of US reserves.

The fight is on, not with just the usual environmental groups, but because the mineral rights are in private hands, and the overlying surface was made into Big Cypress National Preserve. Congress allowed for the production of Oil, which was discovered in 1943, long before the preserve was created.
For a timeline of events: http://www.collierresources.com/history-of-oil-exploration-development
So, in a sense, this is a local issue, of time and place where oil is produced, and whether taking from the owners of the minerals the ability to produce them constitutes a taking, and if so, how to value that.
(I consider a similar issue where relatives planted Red Oak trees before the civil war on 22 acres of land my parents own, but State and Federal agencies will not let them what is likely millions of dollars of timber.)

The statements I read display a limited general knowledge of geology, oil drilling, and fraccing.
By no means are aquifers unique to Florida, in fact, most of the nation has one underfoot.
Aside from freshwater rivers and lakes (often fed in part by aquifers), those aquifers are the main water source for virtually all of humanity.

An oil well is not, as some might think, just a hole in the ground.

Individual States adopt regulations for their construction, but industry best practices are involved as well. Additionally, the Bureau of Land Management has adopted standards for pad construction, lease roads, etc, which have generally become best practices for the industry, at least in the areas I have worked. Often, those standards were adopted by the BLM from the oil companies, who practiced them to avoid legal issues should something go wrong. 
For the wellbore itself, generally, the first 50-150 ft. are drilled through surface material, and a steel conductor pipe is set. This protects near surface aquifers, but also keeps the surface material from sloughing into the hole during the next phase of drilling. From there, the hole is drilled using native materials and fresh water to a depth beyond that of the deepest freshwater aquifer in the area. That hole is subsequently lined with steel casing, and that casing is cemented in place, at a depth ranging from 1500 ft. to 4500 ft., depending on the geology of the area.
Then the oil well is drilled from that casing; in the case of a horizontal well, through the curve and into the target zone.
That interval is also lined with casing, extending to the surface. That casing is also cemented in place.
The remainder of the well is drilled in the target stratum, horizontally or at a very high angle to the vertical (usually 84 to 92 degrees from vertical). Then that section of the well is lined and the liner cemented in place, the well is displaced with production fluid (usually salt water of sufficient density to keep adequate hydrostatic pressure on the hole).

That's the end of the drilling phase, the drilling rig is moved off, and the location handed off to the production crews. In the upper part of the hole, there are now the conductor pipe, the surface casing, and the intermediate casing with their respective cement layers on the outside of each, between any aquifer outside the casing and the wellbore. The cement jobs are checked for integrity using Casing Bond Logs (like an ultrasound to identify any irregularities in the cement so they can be remediated, if found). Here, (and I cannot speak to the regions I have not worked in), about the only way to contaminate the surface aquifers is to spill something.

Fraccing is a production enhancement technique often used in combination with perforating the liner in the zone of interest. Perforating is usually done using shaped charges which blow holes through the liner and surrounding cement and into the producing formation. When those segments (or that entire horizontal wellbore) are ready, frac crews hook into the well, set packers to isolate the segment of the hole being fracced, and pump water and sand with a few chemicals through those perforations in the production liner and into the rock of the producing formation, at pressures high enough to crack the rock. Those induced fractures are propped open by the sand, which allows fluids to pass through the porosity between the sand grains.

The fracturing occurs at the depth where the oil will be produced, usually between 9500 and 11000 ft. below the surface (the reason for that is that is the depth of burial that source rocks generally reach thermal maturity, producing the hydrocarbons that are the target of the whole operation, although Oil and Natural Gas can and do occur at greater depths).  That pressure is roughly two miles down, and the same geological layers that act as seals to keep the oil in the rock down there keep those frac fluids and the oil and gas contained in that geological reservoir.

In a few areas, that oil and gas has migrated from greater depths to shallower ones, but those reservoirs usually exhibit pressure above what they ordinarily would at the depths where the oil and gas formed. Surface seepage is usually more tame, occurring over larger areas and oveer a much longer time. While this is something that may require a bit of special handling to keep the well under control, fraccing is usually not necessary except as a secondary recovery method, or at the very least, not needed until the reservoir has depleted enough to reduce the overpressure.

In Florida, the dirty little secret is that there is oil, that the area it is in is considered environmentally sensitive, and the question is one of the legalities of keeping the owners from producing it. Offshore, the quandary is simple economics, weighing the economic benefit of producing oil and gas off beaches that are an enormous revenue source for the State.
If there is oil out there, it will keep for now, and the oil slicks will come from beachy people covered with suntan slickum.

The question exists, of whether DeSantis will advocate for the entire country what he advocates for Florida: limited drilling onshore and a ban offshore, and a fear of fraccing, which can be (and commonly is) conducted without incident. DeSantis has indicated that he would not extend the Florida policies to the rest of the country.

Depending on how the wells are constructed, the threat to near surface aquifers and even surface waters is minimal if the regulations and procedures are sufficient.  They are likely to collect more oil from parking lot runoff.

Thank you. It’s always nice to hear from an expert when it comes to these issues. Especially when someone post a 30 second ad with little snippets of comments.

Back to the Nikki Haley ad. I can’t get into Ron DeSantis’s mind, but she said that Ron DeSantis opposes fracking and oil exploration. While in Congress, he supported oil exploration in some areas and not others.

So Ron DeSantis may have taken Nikki Haley’s charge as a blanket statement on his position while governor of Florida for the state of Florida vs nationwide. In that ad, Haley doesn’t say he opposed fracking and energy exploration in Florida which would have been true. She says he opposes energy exploration, which he doesn’t. And the ban that was voted on, took place before Ron DeSantis took office.

There’s a lot of nuances here , but on the energy issue, Haley appears to be stronger. Nuancing important issues never works
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 07:37:08 pm by LMAO »
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Offline Sighlass

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The issue of fraccing is moot where there are no oil wells, but Florida does have oil, too, and it is causing a quiet kerfuffle.

Here is one take on the issues: https://www.nrdc.org/bio/alison-kelly/south-floridas-dirty-secret-oil
Production levels appear to be about 1.2 million barrels of oil annually. https://ycharts.com/indicators/florida_crude_oil_production Reserves are about 1/10 of 1% of US reserves.

The fight is on, not with just the usual environmental groups, but because the mineral rights are in private hands, and the overlying surface was made into Big Cypress National Preserve. Congress allowed for the production of Oil, which was discovered in 1943, long before the preserve was created.
For a timeline of events: http://www.collierresources.com/history-of-oil-exploration-development
So, in a sense, this is a local issue, of time and place where oil is produced, and whether taking from the owners of the minerals the ability to produce them constitutes a taking, and if so, how to value that.
(I consider a similar issue where relatives planted Red Oak trees before the civil war on 22 acres of land my parents own, but State and Federal agencies will not let them what is likely millions of dollars of timber.)

The statements I read display a limited general knowledge of geology, oil drilling, and fraccing.
By no means are aquifers unique to Florida, in fact, most of the nation has one underfoot.
Aside from freshwater rivers and lakes (often fed in part by aquifers), those aquifers are the main water source for virtually all of humanity.

An oil well is not, as some might think, just a hole in the ground.

Individual States adopt regulations for their construction, but industry best practices are involved as well. Additionally, the Bureau of Land Management has adopted standards for pad construction, lease roads, etc, which have generally become best practices for the industry, at least in the areas I have worked. Often, those standards were adopted by the BLM from the oil companies, who practiced them to avoid legal issues should something go wrong. 
For the wellbore itself, generally, the first 50-150 ft. are drilled through surface material, and a steel conductor pipe is set. This protects near surface aquifers, but also keeps the surface material from sloughing into the hole during the next phase of drilling. From there, the hole is drilled using native materials and fresh water to a depth beyond that of the deepest freshwater aquifer in the area. That hole is subsequently lined with steel casing, and that casing is cemented in place, at a depth ranging from 1500 ft. to 4500 ft., depending on the geology of the area.
Then the oil well is drilled from that casing; in the case of a horizontal well, through the curve and into the target zone.
That interval is also lined with casing, extending to the surface. That casing is also cemented in place.
The remainder of the well is drilled in the target stratum, horizontally or at a very high angle to the vertical (usually 84 to 92 degrees from vertical). Then that section of the well is lined and the liner cemented in place, the well is displaced with production fluid (usually salt water of sufficient density to keep adequate hydrostatic pressure on the hole).

That's the end of the drilling phase, the drilling rig is moved off, and the location handed off to the production crews. In the upper part of the hole, there are now the conductor pipe, the surface casing, and the intermediate casing with their respective cement layers on the outside of each, between any aquifer outside the casing and the wellbore. The cement jobs are checked for integrity using Casing Bond Logs (like an ultrasound to identify any irregularities in the cement so they can be remediated, if found). Here, (and I cannot speak to the regions I have not worked in), about the only way to contaminate the surface aquifers is to spill something.

Fraccing is a production enhancement technique often used in combination with perforating the liner in the zone of interest. Perforating is usually done using shaped charges which blow holes through the liner and surrounding cement and into the producing formation. When those segments (or that entire horizontal wellbore) are ready, frac crews hook into the well, set packers to isolate the segment of the hole being fracced, and pump water and sand with a few chemicals through those perforations in the production liner and into the rock of the producing formation, at pressures high enough to crack the rock. Those induced fractures are propped open by the sand, which allows fluids to pass through the porosity between the sand grains.

The fracturing occurs at the depth where the oil will be produced, usually between 9500 and 11000 ft. below the surface (the reason for that is that is the depth of burial that source rocks generally reach thermal maturity, producing the hydrocarbons that are the target of the whole operation, although Oil and Natural Gas can and do occur at greater depths).  That pressure is roughly two miles down, and the same geological layers that act as seals to keep the oil in the rock down there keep those frac fluids and the oil and gas contained in that geological reservoir.

In a few areas, that oil and gas has migrated from greater depths to shallower ones, but those reservoirs usually exhibit pressure above what they ordinarily would at the depths where the oil and gas formed. Surface seepage is usually more tame, occurring over larger areas and oveer a much longer time. While this is something that may require a bit of special handling to keep the well under control, fraccing is usually not necessary except as a secondary recovery method, or at the very least, not needed until the reservoir has depleted enough to reduce the overpressure.

In Florida, the dirty little secret is that there is oil, that the area it is in is considered environmentally sensitive, and the question is one of the legalities of keeping the owners from producing it. Offshore, the quandary is simple economics, weighing the economic benefit of producing oil and gas off beaches that are an enormous revenue source for the State.
If there is oil out there, it will keep for now, and the oil slicks will come from beachy people covered with suntan slickum.

The question exists, of whether DeSantis will advocate for the entire country what he advocates for Florida: limited drilling onshore and a ban offshore, and a fear of fraccing, which can be (and commonly is) conducted without incident. DeSantis has indicated that he would not extend the Florida policies to the rest of the country.

Depending on how the wells are constructed, the threat to near surface aquifers and even surface waters is minimal if the regulations and procedures are sufficient.  They are likely to collect more oil from parking lot runoff.

Thank You @Smokin Joe (lol, at your suttle humor sprinkled within too)
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Christina Pushaw 🐊 🇺🇸
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NEW: Nikki Haley asserts that allowing people to post on social media anonymously is a "national security threat". She promises that as president, she will force "every person on social media" to be "verified by their name."
I am no lawyer but isn't this blatantly unconstitutional? Free speech includes anonymous speech.

https://twitter.com/ChristinaPushaw/status/1724524144954380794
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