Author Topic: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire  (Read 6527 times)

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Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2023, 03:11:56 pm »
Sounds like the judge is the one here committing fraud.

The judge did nothing of the sort.  The judge rather correctly dismissed Trump's valuations as (a) not based on any evidence, and (b) clearly erroneous because - as his own attorneys admitted during oral argument on the summary judgment motion - they ignored use restrictions that Trump himself had voluntarily put in place.  Instead, the judge relied on the evidence the NY AG offered which consisted of the valuation reports of the Palm Beach County Assessor for the years 2011 to 2021, which determined a fair market value for Mar-a-Lago of between $18m and $27.6m.

Reliance on a property tax assessor's value determination is not unreasonable, and is frequently done, for example, in estate cases, where inherited real estate has to be valued.

In other words, Trump gave the judge no other option but to adopt the evidence proffered by the NY AG because Trump offered no other evidence.

Read.  The.  Opinion.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2023, 04:02:32 pm »
Read.  The.  Opinion.

Again, what was the "repeated fraudulent or illegal act"?  The opinion is 35 pages of the judge defending his denial of the petition.  But zero pages characterizing the repeated fraudulent or illegal action that Trump allegedly performed.  Maybe you are the one who needs to Read. The. Opinion.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=SW20FJCsispWwDnx1ms5Dw==&system=prod
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2023, 04:12:05 pm »
Again, what was the "repeated fraudulent or illegal act"?  The opinion is 35 pages of the judge defending his denial of the petition.  But zero pages characterizing the repeated fraudulent or illegal action that Trump allegedly performed.  Maybe you are the one who needs to Read. The. Opinion.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=SW20FJCsispWwDnx1ms5Dw==&system=prod

Then you didn't read the opinion.

The opinion lays out quite concisely what elements the NY AG has to prove to succeed under the statute, and why the AG has managed to do so.

The fraudulent actions Trump performed were providing grossly inflated valuations of his property on his Statements of Financial Condition for which Trump could provide no evidentiary basis and which, in point of fact, Trump's own lawyers admitted were false because, in the case of Mar-a-Lago, they intentionally did not take into account the use restrictions Trump had voluntarily placed on the property.

Here is that point from page 27 of the opinion:  "Defendants further imply that they may ignore the plain language of the 2002 Deed restrictions because they would likely be able to use the Florida judicial system to get out of their contractual requirements; they further asser that because they may successfully breach their contract in the future, they were not required to consider the restrictions of the 2002 Deed when valuing the property. NYSCEF Doc. 1292 at 48-51. This argument is wholly without merit. At the time in which the defendants submitted the SFCs, the restrictions were in effect, and any valuations represented to third-parties must have incorporated those restrictions; failure to do so is fraud. Assets values that disregard applicable legal restrictions are by definition materially false and misleading." (emphasis mine).

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2023, 04:24:30 pm »
The NY State Court judge is referring to assessments in Florida and Scotland.  Last time I checked, Florida and Scotland did not fall under NY State legal jurisdiction.  But I digress.  Again, what was the repeated fraudulent or illegal act?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2023, 04:32:15 pm »
On p. 26, the judge cites a discrepancy between the valuation placed on a Florida property by the Florida county tax assessor and the claimed SFC value by Trump.  This is commonplace.  Rarely does any property sell for the value placed by a municipal tax assessor.  I recently sold a house for nearly double the county assessment.  Does that constitute fraud?  Certainly not.  It isn't Trump's responsibility to do Palm Beach County's job for them.  And it certainly isn't the business of the State of New York to judge it.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2023, 04:33:51 pm »
The NY State Court judge is referring to assessments in Florida and Scotland.  Last time I checked, Florida and Scotland did not fall under NY State legal jurisdiction.  But I digress.  Again, what was the repeated fraudulent or illegal act?

Stop being pig-headed.  The fraudulent act was providing valuations that were false - demonstrably so in the case of Mar-a-Lago - and that were made without any factual basis.

In point of fact, failing to take into account the use restrictions - which Trump admitted to not doing - is almost per-se fraudulent.

Furthermore, the issue is whether, in NY, Trump made false statements regarding his assets; the location of the assets themselves is immaterial.

Again, stop trying to dance around the obvious.

If you don't like reading the opinion because it offends you, then read the statute and the other cases that have been based on it.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 04:40:29 pm by Kamaji »

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2023, 04:40:30 pm »
Stop being pig-headed.  The fraudulent act was providing valuations that were false - demonstrably so in the case of Mar-a-Lago

Demonstrably so, eh?  So what is the current assessed sale value of the property?


- and that were made without any factual basis.

Made without any factual basis?  This entire case was created without any factual basis for the charges?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2023, 04:42:40 pm »
On p. 26, the judge cites a discrepancy between the valuation placed on a Florida property by the Florida county tax assessor and the claimed SFC value by Trump.  This is commonplace.  Rarely does any property sell for the value placed by a municipal tax assessor.  I recently sold a house for nearly double the county assessment.  Does that constitute fraud?  Certainly not.  It isn't Trump's responsibility to do Palm Beach County's job for them.  And it certainly isn't the business of the State of New York to judge it.

The judge notes that because the judge was not presented with any other evidence of value, other than the Palm Beach County Assessor's determinations, and Trump was not even able to make a coherent argument for why those valuations should be ignored.

Furthermore, the judge also notes that Trump's lawyers admitted in their briefs that the use restrictions on the property were intentionally ignored by Trump when pulling his valuations out of his ass.  As the judge notes, intentionally failing to take into account valid existing restrictions is fraudulent.  Period.

Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2023, 04:47:18 pm »
Demonstrably so, eh?  So what is the current assessed sale value of the property?

Yes, demonstrably so, because whatever the value of the property, the accurate value had to be determined by taking the use restrictions into account, which would have significantly reduced the value of the property, and Trump's lawyers admitted in their briefs that Trump intentionally chose to not take those use restrictions into account.

Quote
Made without any factual basis?  This entire case was created without any factual basis for the charges?

Bullshit.  Trump made statements of fact in his Statements of Financial Condition, which statements the NY AG alleged were false, and which the AG has proven were false because the only competent valuation evidence introduced into court - the Palm Beach County Assessor's valuations - were substantially less than the values Trump put on his SFCs, and Trump could neither introduce evidence that justified the values he pulled out of his ass, nor could he should that the Palm Beach County Assessor's valuations were unreliable.

He had to have done one of those two things to contradict the evidence of value the NY AG submitted to the court.  He did neither, despite having plenty of opportunity to do so.  The only logical conclusion to be drawn is that Trump made those valuations up, and they were necessarily inflated because he intentionally chose to not take into account factors that would have reduced that value, as his lawyers have already admitted in court.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2023, 04:55:56 pm »
Bullshit.  Trump made statements of fact in his Statements of Financial Condition, which statements the NY AG alleged were false, and which the AG has proven were false because the only competent valuation evidence introduced into court - the Palm Beach County Assessor's valuations - were substantially less than the values Trump put on his SFCs

The Palm Beach valuation was not a sales valuation but a tax valuation.  And it hardly qualifies as competent.  And if the judge is relying on a tax assessment, then he himself is guilty of the exact same thing he falsely accuses Trump of doing.  In other words, this judge has no factual basis for challenging the accuracy of Trump's assessment.

There are private entities who are in the business of conducting property valuations for sales purposes.  Did this judge hire any of them to get a factual assessment?  Or did he simply make up a number based on a woefully inaccurate tax assessment?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2023, 04:59:24 pm »
Yes, demonstrably so, because whatever the value of the property, the accurate value had to be determined by taking the use restrictions into account, which would have significantly reduced the value of the property

Your basis?  Oh yeah, that's right.  The judge never conducted a property valuation himself.  He basically just made up a number based on an old non-New York county tax assessment (i.e. not sales assessment).
 

and Trump's lawyers admitted in their briefs that Trump intentionally chose to not take those use restrictions into account.

So what?  If I am legally handicapped but chose not to park in a handicapped parking spot, am I guilty of fraud?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2023, 05:01:46 pm »
The Palm Beach valuation was not a sales valuation but a tax valuation.  And it hardly qualifies as competent.  And if the judge is relying on a tax assessment, then he himself is guilty of the exact same thing he falsely accuses Trump of doing.  In other words, this judge has no factual basis for challenging the accuracy of Trump's assessment.

There are private entities who are in the business of conducting property valuations for sales purposes.  Did this judge hire any of them to get a factual assessment?  Or did he simply make up a number based on a woefully inaccurate tax assessment?


Then Trump and his lawyers should have been able to prove that.  Since they couldn't, that was the only competent evidence the judge had for value.

What is the judge supposed to do?  Go and make up a value himself?  Wasn't that precisely what you were just bitching about earlier?

Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2023, 05:03:03 pm »
Your basis?  Oh yeah, that's right.  The judge never conducted a property valuation himself.  He basically just made up a number based on an old non-New York county tax assessment (i.e. not sales assessment).
 

So what?  If I am legally handicapped but chose not to park in a handicapped parking spot, am I guilty of fraud?

No, the judge did not make up a value.  He accepted as the only competent evidence available the values that the NY AG had entered into evidence.

Wow.  You really cannot grasp reality here, can you?

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2023, 05:11:43 pm »

Then Trump and his lawyers should have been able to prove that.  Since they couldn't, that was the only competent evidence the judge had for value.

Nope.  It was the value he chose to use as a substitute for sales valuation.  And it wasn't anywhere close to "competent".


What is the judge supposed to do?  Go and make up a value himself?

That's what he already did.  Without having a single independent assessment of the sales value of the property, the judge chose a number himself based on a tax estimate - one that is not based on actual sales valuation but is based on a percentage of total tax revenue needed for government revenue purposes.  So yes, in order to compare to Trump's number (which has nothing to do with tax assessment), the judge made up a value himself.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2023, 05:16:56 pm »
No, the judge did not make up a value.  He accepted as the only competent evidence available the values that the NY AG had entered into evidence.

The NY AG entered into evidence a value that had zero to do with potential sales value of the property.  Nothing.  Zip.  Nada.  And it wasn't "competent", evidenced by the fact that several entities have already come forward willing to fork over $18 million for the property and turn a 3000% profit the next day.  But I do get a big laugh out of you calling a county tax assessor "competent" when it comes to real estate sales.


Wow.  You really cannot grasp reality here, can you?

Reality?  How about pointing out how any of this matters?  Was anyone defrauded?  Did any illegal acts take place?  Heck, if anything, the Palm Beach tax assessor should be fired for not accepting Trump's valuation.  Good grief, Trump should be given a medal for declaring the value as high as he did.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #90 on: September 28, 2023, 06:10:39 pm »
:facepalm2:

Clearly, people do not understand how litigation, particularly civil litigation, proceeds.

Oh well.  I've tried, but there is no reasoning with someone who is contumaciously satisfied with his own ignorance.

:shrug:

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #91 on: September 28, 2023, 06:24:30 pm »
:facepalm2:

Clearly, people do not understand how litigation, particularly civil litigation, proceeds.

Oh well.  I've tried, but there is no reasoning with someone who is contumaciously satisfied with his own ignorance.

I understand how litigation proceeds.  I also understand that there was no actual fraud committed.  And you of all people should understand that a judge's ruling does not constitute proof or fact.

Again, who was defrauded here?  What repeated illegal acts took place?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2023, 07:04:41 pm »
I understand how litigation proceeds.  I also understand that there was no actual fraud committed.  And you of all people should understand that a judge's ruling does not constitute proof or fact.

Again, who was defrauded here?  What repeated illegal acts took place?

No, actually, you clearly do not.

This is how litigation generally proceeds, in schematic form:

1.  Plaintiff has some evidence that would, if true, justify a lawsuit by plaintiff against defendant.

2.  Plaintiff sues defendant, and includes allegations as to the factual basis for the claim, and oftentime attaching documents that support the claim.

3.  Defendant files a reply to the claim, either agreeing with, or denying, plaintiff's allegations.  Defendant will often attach documents supporting its position.

4.  Plaintiff or defendant may then make a motion for summary judgment, claiming that as a matter of law, based on the facts adduced so far, the moving party is entitled to judgment because there are no material issues of fact to be decided.  Each side briefs the matter and may include additional documents that bear on the matter.

5.  Judge reviews the pleadings, including documents introduced as evidence, and arguments presented at oral argument, and decides whether there is a material issue of fact that needs to be decided by a fact-finder or not.  Judge rules accordingly.

In this case, it would have gone something like this:

1.  AG sues Trump claiming that he has consistently lied on his SFCs about the values of his property, and that those lies constitute acts creating an atmosphere conducive to fraud.  AG includes copies of the SFCs and copies of the Assessor's valuations for the years 2011 to 2021.

2.  Trump replies to the claim, and either admits or denies each allegation - let's assume he denies each allegation.

3.  AG moves for summary judgment, claiming that, as a matter of law, Trump violated Exec. Law 63(12) because the values on the SFCs were substantially higher than the assessor's values.

4.  Trump replies to the motion for summary judgment with a brief that is supposed to contest the basis for summary judgment.  In this motion, since the crux of the issue is that there is no issue of material fact regarding the difference in the valuations, it would be incumbent upon Trump and his lawyers to include documents that would tend to show that the AG's claim was wrong, or at the least that there was a material issue of fact to try.  That might include things like the following:  (a) the actual valuation report Trump relied on originally to arrive at the value, even if that report was prepared by him and his staff, (b) evidence tending to show that the assessor's valuations - which clearly are only arrived at as a means of dividing the property tax pie up between all of the various properties within the taxing jurisdiction - are unreliable - for example, if it had been my case, I would have had several junior associates spending several weeks to comb through all of the property sales in and around Mar-a-Lago during the relevant times, focusing particularly on unique properties, to present evidence that there was a wide discrepancy between the assessor's values - which are a matter of public record and easily obtained - and the actual sales values for those properties; I would hope that there would be no consistent pattern or delta to the differences so that I could argue both that there was a significant difference, and that the differences were so different property to property that no simple rule could be derived from them, such as "multiply the assessor's valuations by 5.4 to arrive at the likely sale value" - I would also have them comb the deeds for those properties to see if there are use restrictions on any of the other properties, so that I could gauge the differential effect that would have vis-a-vis the assessor's valuations.  With respect to Trump's conscious choice to disregard the effect of the use restrictions on valuation, I would have had an opinion commissioned by an outside lawyer experienced in those matters who could opine on whether or not Trump or a purchaser would have been successful in defeating those restrictions in court, and then argued in my reply brief to the AG's motion that it was correct to weight the effect of those restrictions as something less than 100% due to the chances that overturning them might have been successful - hopefully, my expert would have opined that there was a very good chance (say, 75% or better) of overturning the restrictions, so that it would have been reasonable to have substantially discounted their effect on the value of that property.

To all appearances, Trump and his lawyer did none of these things.  Instead, they got off into the woods on arguments about standing and parens patriae, none of which was very well argued even so.

Clearly, (a) Trump did not hire the best and the brightest, if even a poor sod like me can come up with a better litigation strategy, and (b) it is still the case that Trump did himself in because he didn't have proper valuations done on his properties when he prepared the SFCs.  To all appearances, he didn't even go to a few of his friends in the business and get BPOs from commercial real estate brokers.

As a result, the judge was left with very few options.  He could have, as he did, accept the value propounded by the AG as being the only competent, objective evidence of value entered into the case.  In a civil litigation, the judge's job is not to hunt for the TRUTH like some black-robed Diogenes, it is to determine, based on the law and the evidence presented, which party has the better position.

It astounds me that Trump is such a fuckwit that he couldn't even hire lawyers who could diligently attack the AG's case on summary judgment. 

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #93 on: September 28, 2023, 07:15:22 pm »
3.  AG moves for summary judgment, claiming that, as a matter of law, Trump violated Exec. Law 63(12) because the values on the SFCs were substantially higher than the assessor's values.

The problem here is that higher values on his SFC compared to a Florida county tax assessor DOES NOT CONSTITUTE FRAUD OR ILLEGAL ACT.


As a result, the judge was left with very few options.  He could have, as he did, accept the value propounded by the AG as being the only competent [sic], objective evidence of value entered into the case.

The judge had other options available that he did not choose.  Regardless, his opinion does not constitute proof that fraud took place.  It is simply an opinion.  Which is why I questioned the evidence backing up that opinion.  And clearly, there wasn't any.


To all appearances, Trump and his lawyer did none of these things.  Instead, they got off into the woods on arguments about standing and parens patriae, none of which was very well argued even so.

Clearly, (a) Trump did not hire the best and the brightest, if even a poor sod like me can come up with a better litigation strategy, and (b) it is still the case that Trump did himself in because he didn't have proper valuations done on his properties when he prepared the SFCs.  To all appearances, he didn't even go to a few of his friends in the business and get BPOs from commercial real estate brokers.

.  .  .

It astounds me that Trump is such a fuckwit that he couldn't even hire lawyers who could diligently attack the AG's case on summary judgment.

No argument from me on any of that.  Trump is not the sharpest legal mind in the shed.  I could have put up a better defense than this.  In fact, I already have.  All he needed to do was to provide a list of other properties that had been sold nearby in the last decade.





If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2023, 07:23:26 pm »
The problem here is that higher values on his SFC compared to a Florida county tax assessor DOES NOT CONSTITUTE FRAUD OR ILLEGAL ACT.


The judge had other options available that he did not choose.  Regardless, his opinion does not constitute proof that fraud took place.  It is simply an opinion.  Which is why I questioned the evidence backing up that opinion.  And clearly, there wasn't any.


No argument from me on any of that.  Trump is not the sharpest legal mind in the shed.  I could have put up a better defense than this.  In fact, I already have.  All he needed to do was to provide a list of other properties that had been sold nearby in the last decade.








:facepalm2:

Again, read the bleep opinion and the cases to which it cites. 

THE STATUTE DOES NOT REQUIRE PROOF OF FRAUD OR AN ILLEGAL ACT

All it requires is that there be proof of repeated conduct that "has the capacity or tendency to deceive, or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud.  People v. Gen. Elec. Co."  See page 18 of the opinion under the heading "Materiality".

And making up values that are substantially greater than the only objective evidence of value that either party has submitted to the court is certainly evidence that the defendant was engaging in activity - falsifying the values of his assets on SFCs submitted to lenders and creditors - that would create an atmosphere conducive to fraud.


Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #95 on: September 28, 2023, 07:41:54 pm »
All it requires is that there be proof of repeated conduct that "has the capacity or tendency to deceive, or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud.  People v. Gen. Elec. Co."  See page 18 of the opinion under the heading "Materiality".

So where is the proof of repeated conduct that "has the capacity or tendency to deceive, or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud?  Again, where was the deception?  Who was the target of that deception?  And based on the owner-declared situational condition of the property, where is there any valuation presented in court that disputes it?  Clearly, such a valuation did not come from Palm Beach County.

Again, where is the fraud or illegal act?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2023, 07:46:01 pm »
So where is the proof of repeated conduct that "has the capacity or tendency to deceive, or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud?  Again, where was the deception?  Who was the target of that deception?  And based on the owner-declared situational condition of the property, where is there any valuation presented in court that disputes it?  Clearly, such a valuation did not come from Palm Beach County.

Again, where is the fraud or illegal act?

:facepalm2:

Let's try that again:  NO FRAUD OR ILLEGAL ACT IS REQUIRED UNDER EXEC. LAW §63(12).

Otherwise, the answer is staring you in the face.  Trump was asked to provide a Statement of Financial Condition to current and future lenders that accurately states the value of his property.  He intentionally and repeatedly lied about the value of his properties and inflated them substantially over what they're worth.

That creates the conditions that are conducive to fraud.  I know you don't want to accept that fact, because it runs counter to your lawfare narrative, but that is sufficient for a claim under Exec. Law §63(12).
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 07:47:39 pm by Kamaji »

Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #97 on: September 28, 2023, 09:05:39 pm »
Trump was asked to provide a Statement of Financial Condition to current and future lenders that accurately states the value of his property.  He intentionally and repeatedly lied about the value of his properties and inflated them substantially over what they're worth.

That creates the conditions that are conducive to fraud.  I know you don't want to accept that fact, because it runs counter to your lawfare narrative, but that is sufficient for a claim under Exec. Law §63(12).

To lenders?  Now we're getting somewhere.  Before lenders lend you money on property, they perform a valuation on the property.  Never ever do they simply take your word for it.  So is there an example where a lender lent money against the value of the property in excess of the assessed sales value?  Surely a lender already had the same information the Palm Beach County tax assessor had.  In other words, it isn't fraud.  No one was defrauded.  No one broke the law.  No one suffered.  No crime.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Online Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2023, 09:06:24 pm »
Let's try that again:  NO FRAUD OR ILLEGAL ACT IS REQUIRED UNDER EXEC. LAW §63(12).

So it wasn't fraud.  Got it.  Glad to see you finally agree.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Online Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #99 on: September 28, 2023, 09:14:54 pm »
So it wasn't fraud.  Got it.  Glad to see you finally agree.

I didn't say it wasn't fraud.  Don't put words in my mouth.

I said that Trump lied about the value of his assets, and that lie amounts to actions that create an atmosphere that is conducive to fraud, and that is all that the statute requires.

Unless Trump and his band of incompetent attorneys can come up with a good argument for why there is a material issue of fact that requires overturning the summary judgment, or can make a good argument for why the remedy should not be as drastic as it could be, Trump's goose is cooked, and he is the one who did it to himself.