Author Topic: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense  (Read 1435 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ChemEngrMBA

  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 967
Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« on: September 14, 2023, 11:54:37 pm »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program

In chapter 3 of his book The Blind Watchmaker, biologist Richard Dawkins gave the following introduction to the program, referencing the well-known infinite monkey theorem.*

I don't know who it was first pointed out that, given enough time, a monkey bashing away at random on a typewriter could produce all the works of Shakespeare. The operative phrase is, of course, given enough time. Let us limit the task facing our monkey somewhat. Suppose that he has to produce, not the complete works of Shakespeare but just the short sentence 'Methinks it is like a weasel', and we shall make it relatively easy by giving him a typewriter with a restricted keyboard, one with just the 26 (capital) letters, and a space bar. How long will he take to write this one little sentence?

[NOTE:  How lazy of Richard Dawkins to fail to look up the author of his monkey business.  It was Sir Arthur Eddington.   
In 1928, British astrophysicist Arthur Eddington presented a classical illustration of chance in his book, The Nature of the Physical World: “If I let my fingers wander idly over the keys of a typewriter it might happen that my screed made an intelligible sentence. If an army of monkeys were strumming on typewriters they might write all the books in the British Museum.”
This is nonsense compounding nonsense.  And yet my high school math teacher presented this proposition to his classes in the 1960’s.
First, an “army of monkeys” wouldn’t be very interested in hitting typewriter keys repeatedly.  There is nothing for them to gain in so doing. 
Second, those who did hit the keys would quickly get to the end of the line, and have no concept of returning the carriage to type the second line.
Third, those very few who somehow overcame the first and second hurdles, repeatedly, would find that the paper was ejected from the carriage, and they are hopelessly unable to replace the first page with a fresh sheet of paper.
Fourth, we will never get to the fourth problem of exhausting the ink in the typewriter ribbons because the “army of monkeys” would have defecated on or otherwise ruined every typewriter.
Fifth, Sir Arthur Eddington never began to consider the statistics of monkeys “selecting” 1 out of approximately 100 different keys, counting upper and lower case of all letters, numbers, and punctuation marks.  A page of an average book has 250 – 300 words.  (https://hotghostwriter.com/blogs/blog/novel-length-how-long-is-long-enough)
*Finally, the largest army in the world is the People’s Liberation Army of Communist China, with over 2,000,000 troops.   This is hardly “infinite” in number.  (https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/)
The average word has 6.47 letters. (https://capitalizemytitle.com/character-count/100-characters/)
Using the lower value of 250 words, times 6.47 letters equals 1,617 characters in a page.
1/100 to the 1,617th power is 10 to the -3,234, for just one page, much less “all the books in the British Museum.”
“we just think of one chance in 10 to the 40th power” as “impossible”. – Richard Dawkins, (The Blind Watchmaker, page 142)
Emil Borel, a famous statistician, defined “impossible” as an event with a probability of 10-50 or less.
https://owlcation.com/stem/Borels-Law-of-Probability
This is equivalent to finding one unique marble, in 78 spheres the size of our solar system out to Pluto, all full of identical marbles except for one, on your first and only attempt.  You do not get an infinite number of attempts, not even two. 
Therefore 1050 marbles, each 1cm in diameter, would occupy 78 spheres reaching from the center of the sun to Pluto, 5.906 billion kilometers from the sun.  (10 to the 5 marbles/km)3  = 10 to the 15 marbles per cubic km
To get 35 more orders of magnitude requires the multiplier of roughly (4.64 x 10 to the 11) cubed, for volume.
4.64x 1011 km/5.906 x 109 km= ~78.5 spheres the size of our solar system to Pluto]



 Dawkins then goes on to show that a process of cumulative selection can take far fewer steps to reach any given target. In Dawkins' words:
We again use our computer monkey, but with a crucial difference in its program. It again begins by choosing a random sequence of 28 letters, just as before ... it duplicates it repeatedly, but with a certain chance of random error – 'mutation' – in the copying. The computer examines the mutant nonsense phrases, the 'progeny' of the original phrase, and chooses the one which, however slightly, most resembles the target phrase, METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL.
Generation 01:   WDLTMNLT DTJBKWIRZREZLMQCO P [2]
Generation 02:   WDLTMNLT DTJBSWIRZREZLMQCO P
Generation 10:   MDLDMNLS ITJISWHRZREZ MECS P
Generation 20:   MELDINLS IT ISWPRKE Z WECSEL
Generation 30:   METHINGS IT ISWLIKE B WECSEL
Generation 40:   METHINKS IT IS LIKE I WEASEL
Generation 43:   METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
Dawkins continues: 
The exact time taken by the computer to reach the target doesn't matter. If you want to know, it completed the whole exercise for me, the first time, while I was out to lunch. It took about half an hour. (Computer enthusiasts may think this unduly slow. The reason is that the program was written in BASIC, a sort of computer baby-talk. When I rewrote it in Pascal, it took 11 seconds.) Computers are a bit faster at this kind of thing than monkeys, but the difference really isn't significant. What matters is the difference between the time taken by cumulative selection, and the time which the same computer, working flat out at the same rate, would take to reach the target phrase if it were forced to use the other procedure of single-step selection: about a million million million million million years. This is more than a million million million times as long as the universe has so far existed.


[So much for Dawkins’ specious argument in defense of Darwinism, which he proudly claimed, “… made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.”  (http://UncommonDescent.com) Twenty-six capital letters plus the space bar equals twenty-seven. Twenty-seven to the twenty-eighth power equals ten to the fortieth different possible combinations, of which we seek only one specifically.  Dawkins admits his definition of “impossible” is 1 chance in 10 to the 40th power.  This is not for all of Shakespeare’s works, but for one short sentence, and even then on a dramatically altered keyboard, not of fifty possible keys, lower case, and fifty more keys, upper case, but for only twenty-six keys, all upper case.
Of critical but neglected importance is the fact that for “selection” to occur, the intermediary produced by the random mutation MUST confer a “selective advantage” for the host organism, otherwise it will be lost.  It is therefore incumbent on the advocate for Darwinism to demonstrate, in each case, what that improvement is and how it operates, every single time, without exception.   This is easily done when copying short sentences, but not so easily done when originally constructing over 20,000 proteins in humans *a, the largest of which is titin, at 38,138*b amino acid residues in length. 1 out of 20 amino acids “selected” consecutively 38,138 times has a probability of 1 chance in 10 to the 49,618.  This is for only one protein. Calculating for chirality, i.e. the “selection” of L amino acids instead of D amino acids *c and all peptide bonds rather than the equally probable non-peptide bonds *d reduces the probability of original naturalistic synthesis to 1 chance in 10to the 72,578.  Twenty thousand more proteins to go! – John Phillip Jaeger]
*a -  https://www.omim.org/entry/188840\
*b - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4889822/
*c - ½ to the 38,138 = 10-11,480
*d - ½ to the 38,138 = 10-11,480


______________________________________

•   johnjaeger
Thu 9/14/2023 11:35 AM
Hi John—

Your critique of the Dawkins weasel demonstration found its way to me, and I agree with it entirely. I offered my own critique in Undeniable (p198-200). You hit the nail on the head!

Regrettably, even solid refutations of evolutionary arguments like this don’t seem to get their proponents to rethink their position. I’ve become convinced that this is because the root problem is spiritual, not scientific or intellectual.

Best regards,

Doug Axe


Douglas Axe, PhD
Rosa Endowed Chair of Molecular Biology
Professor of Computational Biology
Co-Director of Stewart Science Honors Program
School of Science, Technology & Health
Biola University





« Last Edit: September 14, 2023, 11:55:46 pm by ChemEngrMBA »
The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline ChemEngrMBA

  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 967
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2023, 09:30:24 pm »
It's interesting how all the atheists and pseudointellectuals have fallen silent.
They no longer tout their own scientific knowledge while calling me names.

I love to teach, both the willing and the uncooperative. The latter need it the most, like @sneakypete .
Hopefully I'm getting through to some of them.

It's pretty hard to top Doug Axe's credentials and his confirmation of my critique of Richard Dawkins' monkey business.
The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline Kamaji

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,896
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2023, 12:37:53 pm »
:mauslaff:


Offline ChemEngrMBA

  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 967
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2023, 01:35:03 am »
"We conclude that macroevolution via survival of the fittest is not salvageable by arguments for random genetic drift and other proposed mechanisms." - From Abstract of "Neo-Darwinism must mutate to survive,” by Brown and Hullender, published in Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology, August, 2022
-----------------
DUH!

It just occurred to me this very day (September 22, 2023) that the pseudoscience of Darwinism has long supported the evil of atheism due to nonsensical extrapolation.

"Darwin made it intellectually fulfilling to be an atheist." - Richard Dawkins, evolutionary biologist at Oxford and bitter atheist

Because of the pseudoscientific pretension that all plants and animals made themselves, fulfilled atheists extrapolated that pretension to all matter, energy, correspondence, and the profound fortuitous interdependencies extending throughout the universe, which, they insist, also made themselves, out of nothing.  There is not an iota of empirical evidence for nothing making everything, but millions cling to this nonsense.


The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,957
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2023, 02:11:11 am »
It's interesting how all the atheists and pseudointellectuals have fallen silent.
They no longer tout their own scientific knowledge while calling me names.

I love to teach, both the willing and the uncooperative. The latter need it the most, like @sneakypete .
Hopefully I'm getting through to some of them.


It's pretty hard to top Doug Axe's credentials and his confirmation of my critique of Richard Dawkins' monkey business.


@ChemEngrMBA

Kinda full of yourself,ain't  ya,bubba?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Online mystery-ak

  • Owner
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 382,390
  • Gender: Female
  • Let's Go Brandon!
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2023, 02:57:38 pm »
@ChemEngrMBA

Please do not call out members in regards to their faith as you did above on a public forum...
Proud Supporter of Tunnel to Towers
Support the USO
Democrat Party...the Party of Infanticide

“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”
-Matthew 6:34

Offline ChemEngrMBA

  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 967
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2023, 09:58:40 pm »
Members call out whomever they wish for a variety of reasons, calling others stupid, creationist, fundie, anti-science, etc. and you want to cuddle atheists and protect their tender sensitivities, after all the crap they have thrown?
The Book Commentary: "The book (Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life) is pure genius."
Review by John Orosz, M.D. "It is beyond outstanding. Please send me twenty signed copies for colleagues, family, and libraries."
"I was running every morning for twenty years with a genius." - Mike McCartney, D.D.S.
"You have the most agile mind of anyone I know." -
Avice Marie Griffin, PhD, Clinical Psychologist

Offline mountaineer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 78,503
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2023, 10:33:44 pm »
As a Christian, I would simply love them.
Support Israel's emergency medical service. afmda.org

Online berdie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,694
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2023, 10:50:17 pm »
Members call out whomever they wish for a variety of reasons, calling others stupid, creationist, fundie, anti-science, etc. and you want to cuddle atheists and protect their tender sensitivities, after all the crap they have thrown?



Everyone has their own beliefs. I may not agree, but I respect them.

Online Cyber Liberty

  • Coffee! Donuts! Kittens!
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 79,986
  • Gender: Male
  • 🌵🌵🌵
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2023, 05:41:14 pm »
Members call out whomever they wish for a variety of reasons, calling others stupid, creationist, fundie, anti-science, etc. and you want to cuddle atheists and protect their tender sensitivities, after all the crap they have thrown?

It's a Policy we had to develop, because these arguments always come down to telling everybody their souls are going to Heck.  My Report Page then runneth over.  It's not negotiable.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 05:42:07 pm by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline goatprairie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,947
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2023, 12:23:45 am »
It's interesting how all the atheists and pseudointellectuals have fallen silent.
They no longer tout their own scientific knowledge while calling me names.

I love to teach, both the willing and the uncooperative. The latter need it the most, like @sneakypete .
Hopefully I'm getting through to some of them.

It's pretty hard to top Doug Axe's credentials and his confirmation of my critique of Richard Dawkins' monkey business.

Take yourself a little too seriously, don't you pal?

Offline Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,143
Re: Richard Dawkins' Weasel Program Evolution Nonsense
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2023, 01:37:14 am »
Dawkins then goes on to show that a process of cumulative selection can take far fewer steps to reach any given target. In Dawkins' words:
We again use our computer monkey, but with a crucial difference in its program. It again begins by choosing a random sequence of 28 letters, just as before ... it duplicates it repeatedly, but with a certain chance of random error – 'mutation' – in the copying. The computer examines the mutant nonsense phrases, the 'progeny' of the original phrase, and chooses the one which, however slightly, most resembles the target phrase, METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL.
Generation 01:   WDLTMNLT DTJBKWIRZREZLMQCO P [2]
Generation 02:   WDLTMNLT DTJBSWIRZREZLMQCO P
Generation 10:   MDLDMNLS ITJISWHRZREZ MECS P
Generation 20:   MELDINLS IT ISWPRKE Z WECSEL
Generation 30:   METHINGS IT ISWLIKE B WECSEL
Generation 40:   METHINKS IT IS LIKE I WEASEL
Generation 43:   METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
Dawkins continues: 
The exact time taken by the computer to reach the target doesn't matter. If you want to know, it completed the whole exercise for me, the first time, while I was out to lunch. It took about half an hour. (Computer enthusiasts may think this unduly slow. The reason is that the program was written in BASIC, a sort of computer baby-talk. When I rewrote it in Pascal, it took 11 seconds.) Computers are a bit faster at this kind of thing than monkeys, but the difference really isn't significant. What matters is the difference between the time taken by cumulative selection, and the time which the same computer, working flat out at the same rate, would take to reach the target phrase if it were forced to use the other procedure of single-step selection: about a million million million million million years. This is more than a million million million times as long as the universe has so far existed.

The crucial part that Dawkins fails to address is how the 28 letters came to be in the first place.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-