Author Topic: I Read the Georgia Indictment, So You Don’t Have To...by John Hinderaker  (Read 1130 times)

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I Read the Georgia Indictment, So You Don’t Have To
John Hinderaker


The Georgia indictment relates to Donald Trump’s (and 18 other defendants’) post-election efforts to reverse the apparent result of the 2020 election, in Georgia and elsewhere. That Trump made such attempts is not disputed. The question is, what did he do that was illegal?

The indictment alleges a vast conspiracy, supported by 161 “overt acts,” that ultimately comprises Count I, a violation of Georgia’s RICO statute. The problem is that, with two exceptions, the “overt acts” are all legal. You can’t aggregate a series of legal acts and make them a crime by calling them a conspiracy.

The indictment alleges that Trump and his co-conspirators made a number of false statements, starting with Overt Act 1:

    On or about the 4th day of November, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP made a nationally televised speech falsely declaring victory in the 2020 presidential election. Approximately four days earlier, on or about October 31, 2020, DONALD JOHN TRUMP discussed a draft speech with unindicted co-conspirator Individual 1, whose identity is known to the Grand Jury, that falsely declared victory and falsely claimed voter fraud. The speech was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

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Offline PeteS in CA

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Quote
The problem is that, with two exceptions, the “overt acts” are all legal.

BTW, Trump was not one of the persons who committed those two allegedly illegal “overt acts”.

Quote
You can’t aggregate a series of legal acts and make them a crime by calling them a conspiracy.

Lawfare don't care.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Kamaji

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The problem is that, with two exceptions, the “overt acts” are all legal. You can’t aggregate a series of legal acts and make them a crime by calling them a conspiracy.

Not true.  And it's the "two exceptions" that creates the problem.  Acts sufficient to support a conviction for conspiracy can all be legal, so long as there was an overt act in furtherance of that conspiracy.  And if there are two overt acts that were not legal, then that is more than enough.

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BTW, Trump was not one of the persons who committed those two allegedly illegal “overt acts”.

Lawfare don't care.

 :yowsa: pointing-up
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Not true.  And it's the "two exceptions" that creates the problem.  Acts sufficient to support a conviction for conspiracy can all be legal, so long as there was an overt act in furtherance of that conspiracy.  And if there are two overt acts that were not legal, then that is more than enough.

It doesn't sound to me like the two acts - one count of perjury and one count of tampering with a machine - can fairly be attributable to other alleged conspirators.

I don't think these claims will survive legally against Trump, etc..

Offline Kamaji

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It doesn't sound to me like the two acts - one count of perjury and one count of tampering with a machine - can fairly be attributable to other alleged conspirators.

I don't think these claims will survive legally against Trump, etc..

That's the thing with RICO, it sweeps very widely, and if a person is a member of the enterprise, they are basically facing what amounts to strict liability for the acts of the other members of the enterprise.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Burden of proof is on the prosecution.

Now bring out your evidence to prove there was no fraud.

Bring out your evidence to prove the changes in voting regulations not passed by the State Legislature were somehow Constitutional. ETC...
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Offline Kamaji

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Burden of proof is on the prosecution.

Now bring out your evidence to prove there was no fraud.

Bring out your evidence to prove the changes in voting regulations not passed by the State Legislature were somehow Constitutional. ETC...

They don't have to prove those points.  Those points are not elements of the crimes charged.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Reminder:  The crime is the indictment itself.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Levin:  “This is an attack on the people”. (Video)


https://twitter.com/TPostMillennial/status/1691987650964488636

Offline Hoodat

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They don't have to prove those points.  Those points are not elements of the crimes charged.

The crimes charged all rest on the premise that Trump knew the election was legit, but tried to overthrow it.  So yes, those points are most definitely elements.  If Trump's team can create enough doubt as to the legitimacy of the election, then Trump's actions were not part of a conspiracy to overthrow a legitimate election.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Reminder:  The crime is the indictment itself.

How so?  Can you explain that?  Or are your posts strictly limited to talking points of the Trump campaign?

Seriously, I would like to hear you make a competent legal argument as to why these charges are bogus.  Several Conservatives including myself have been making those reasoned arguments for quite some time.  But never any from you.  All you do is post campaign posts, friendly poll numbers, and a heck of a lot of deceitful posts against DeSantis.  But not once have I heard you offer a truthful argument about anything.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Kamaji

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The crimes charged all rest on the premise that Trump knew the election was legit, but tried to overthrow it.  So yes, those points are most definitely elements.  If Trump's team can create enough doubt as to the legitimacy of the election, then Trump's actions were not part of a conspiracy to overthrow a legitimate election.

No, they aren't.  You can say they are all you want, but Raffensperger is not going to get put on the stand and quizzed about how he allegedly broke Georgia law.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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That's the thing with RICO, it sweeps very widely, and if a person is a member of the enterprise, they are basically facing what amounts to strict liability for the acts of the other members of the enterprise.

Right, but the acts must still be in furtherance of the conspiracy.  I don't think a guy lying under oath years later to save his own skin qualifies.

Also, the conspiracy must be towards an illegal end.  If it turns out that the goal of the alleged conspiracy -changing the Georgia electors - is not illegal itself, then any incidental illegal acts committed by an individual cannot be imputed to others.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 12:35:23 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Kamaji

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Right, but the acts must still be in furtherance of the conspiracy.  I don't think a guy lying under oath years later to save his own skin qualifies.

True, but how is "in furtherance" defined?  Also, if the lie was done to protect the original conspiracy, then that would be analogous to someone who is an accessory after the fact.

Offline Hoodat

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Not true.  And it's the "two exceptions" that creates the problem.  Acts sufficient to support a conviction for conspiracy can all be legal, so long as there was an overt act in furtherance of that conspiracy.  And if there are two overt acts that were not legal, then that is more than enough.

The conspiracy was not furthered by examining a voting machine in Douglas, GA weeks after the election.  And keep in mind, the entire conspiracy argument rests on the fictitious premise that Trump believed all along that there was zero wrongdoing in the Georgia election, yet tried to overthrow the State's account of the results.  And that simply isn't the case.  Not only did Trump believe that, but there was plenty of wrongdoing to go around, much of it documented by the liberal media outlets in the months and weeks leading up to the election.

An example, the AJC reported in October 2020 that Dominion made software changes to their machine programs, but told the Secretary of State's office that the changes did not warrant re-certification.  The Secretary of State's office let it slide even though State Law required re-certification for a single line of code.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Right, but the acts must still be in furtherance of the conspiracy.  I don't think a guy lying under oath years later to save his own skin qualifies.

Also, the conspiracy must be towards an illegal end.  If it turns out that the goal of the alleged conspiracy -changing the Georgia electors - is not illegal itself, then any incidental illegal acts committed by an individual cannot be imputed to others.

A conspiracy also required a mastermind - one who directs the action with purpose and forethought.  Are they really going to be successful making the case that Trump is somehow that Machiavellian genius?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Kamaji

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The conspiracy was not furthered by examining a voting machine in Douglas, GA weeks after the election.  And keep in mind, the entire conspiracy argument rests on the fictitious premise that Trump believed all along that there was zero wrongdoing in the Georgia election, yet tried to overthrow the State's account of the results.  And that simply isn't the case.  Not only did Trump believe that, but there was plenty of wrongdoing to go around, much of it documented by the liberal media outlets in the months and weeks leading up to the election.

An example, the AJC reported in October 2020 that Dominion made software changes to their machine programs, but told the Secretary of State's office that the changes did not warrant re-certification.  The Secretary of State's office let it slide even though State Law required re-certification for a single line of code.

Whatever.  You are not going to see Raffensperger on the witness stand.  That ship sailed a long time ago.  It might have happened if Trump had been smart about approaching the issues, but, in typical Trump fashion, he wasn't.  And now he's landed himself in a peck of trouble.

Offline Hoodat

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Whatever.  You are not going to see Raffensperger on the witness stand.

That is an entirely different matter that has NOTHING to do with the merit of the charges.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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True, but how is "in furtherance" defined?  Also, if the lie was done to protect the original conspiracy, then that would be analogous to someone who is an accessory after the fact.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on RICO law, and know pretty much nothing about Georgia's version of that.  But I think there are due process requirements that prevent it from going too far.

So for example, let's say you have an overzealous Trump campaign worker who decides to knock off a bank to obtain additional funds for Trump's campaign. He decides to do that on his own without notifying anyone else, or asking anyone else's permission. 

Clearly, that's a criminal act, and it was intended to help the campaign.   So would that be a criminal act in furtherance of a "conspiracy" to elect Trump that essentially makes the entire campaign guilty of a conspiracy?  Can't be, right?  That would have to fail on constitutional due process grounds.

So my more-or-less lay opinion on this must be that there are both 1) an express or implied agreement among the conspirators to accomplish an illegal act, goal or purpose, and 2) criminal acts committed in furtherance of that purpose with at least the general knowledge, awareness, or approval of other members of the conspiracy.  I admittedly sort of made that up but I'll bet it is pretty close.

Anyway, those two alleged illegal acts don't sound to me like they fit 2), and I also questioned whether the goal of the alleged conspiracy met 1).   

I simply do not believe that trying to convince federal or state officials to pursue allegations of election fraud, or to attempt to persuade others to stop the certification of an election you believe is fraudulent, is illegal.  And I think ultimately, if the case makes it that far, the Supreme Court is going to wipe out all of this on those grounds.


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What the hell does LAW have to do with anything now? Asking for a friend.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien