Pence commits political suicide

[Kamaji]

Mike Pence on Donald Trump’s third indictment: ‘Should never be president’

By Snejana Farberov
August 2, 2023

Former Vice President Mike Pence laid into former President Donald Trump Tuesday, accusing him of prioritizing himself over the Constitution — and blasting his latest run for the White House as a “distraction.”

Pence’s strongly-worded condemnation of his former running mate came in response to Trump’s third indictment in four months, charging the 45th president for his alleged attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

“Today’s indictment serves as an important reminder: anyone who puts himself over the Constitution should never be President of the United States,” Pence tweeted Tuesday. “I will have more to say about the government’s case after reviewing the indictment.”

“The former president is entitled to the presumption of innocence but with this indictment, his candidacy means more talk about January 6th and more distractions,” Pence continued. “As Americans, his candidacy means less attention paid to Joe Biden’s disastrous economic policies afflicting millions across the United States and to the pattern of corruption with Hunter [Biden].”

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Source:  https://nypost.com/2023/08/02/mike-pence-reacts-to-donald-trumps-third-indictment/

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I don't think Pence's priority is his political future.  I think he just strongly believes that Trump's actions on and leading up to January 6 were reprehensible.

I think he's comfortable letting the political chips fall wherever they may.

[libertybele]

I don't think Pence's priority is his political future.  I think he just strongly believes that Trump's actions on and leading up to January 6 were reprehensible.

I think he's comfortable letting the political chips fall wherever they may.

I don't exactly agree that Pence is innocent and believe he knew about the planned insurrection.  It was a political stunt.

As for his comments -- well, he's out to continue to hang Trump. 

He's running for president and you can bet that the GOPe has already selected him as their nominee.  Just my opinion.

[Kamaji]

I don't think Pence's priority is his political future.  I think he just strongly believes that Trump's actions on and leading up to January 6 were reprehensible.

I think he's comfortable letting the political chips fall wherever they may.

Then I'd prefer it if he simply walked away into history and left well enough alone.

[libertybele]

Then I'd prefer it if he simply walked away into history and left well enough alone.

That's not going to happen.  You probably don't agree that he was part of the planned J6 insurrection, and I also believe that the GOPe is going to back him.

As I see it the GOPe is hoping that Trump will take down DeSantis and the rest of the candidates just like he did last time and Pence will be left standing against Trump.  It's going to be a showdown as the GOP voting base will be divided.

Either way the DEMS have stealing an election down pat -- this is nothing but smoke and mirrors anyways.

[Kamaji]

That's not going to happen.  You probably don't agree that he was part of the planned J6 insurrection, and I also believe that the GOPe is going to back him.

As I see it the GOPe is hoping that Trump will take down DeSantis and the rest of the candidates just like he did last time and Pence will be left standing against Trump.  It's going to be a showdown as the GOP voting base will be divided.

Either way the DEMS have stealing an election down pat -- this is nothing but smoke and mirrors anyways.

Well, I don't agree that Pence would be a viable candidate even if he was the only one running.  I also don't think that he would be the only one left untouched by Trump's toxicity.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I don't exactly agree that Pence is innocent and believe he knew about the planned insurrection.

Well, he certainly knew there was going to be a massive pro-Trump rally, and that Trump would try to pressure him to stop the counting of electoral college votes.  But that was all public knowledge anyway.

As for his comments -- well, he's out to continue to hang Trump.

If he honestly believes Trump is unfit, why shouldn't he?  I mean, he knows better than anyone else exactly what Trump was saying to him in the time leading up to January 6.  If his notes are truthful regarding what Trump said to him, then I don't blame him in the least for trying to sabotage Trump.  I'd probably think worse of him if he didn't.

He's running for president and you can bet that the GOPe has already selected him as their nominee.  Just my opinion.

Who the "GOPe" selects - and I don't believe that is a monolithic group anyway - doesn't much matter.   Voters decide, and they've rejected the presumed "GOPe" candidate recently in both 2008 and 2016.  Pence has zero chance chance regardless of what party officials may (or may not) want.

[yodaspock]

Pence is just another RINO

[Fishrrman]

Pence?
I wouldn't spit on him.
Wouldn't be worth the spittle.

He sure has shown his true colors lately.

But...
I sense there are a good number of "Republicans" out there who are JUST LIKE HIM.
How to draw them out into the open...?

[libertybele]

Pence?
I wouldn't spit on him.
Wouldn't be worth the spittle.

He sure has shown his true colors lately.

But...
I sense there are a good number of "Republicans" out there who are JUST LIKE HIM.
How to draw them out into the open...?

Lot's of RINO's in the House and Senate.  It's easy enough to find out who they are.  It takes a bit of time, but just look up their voting records.

[mountaineer]

Well, I don't agree that Pence would be a viable candidate even if he was the only one running.  I also don't think that he would be the only one left untouched by Trump's toxicity.

His "unviability" is a good reason for the establishment GOP to support him. Ronna McDaniel probably thinks he's swell. It's not like the RNC has any desire to win the White House - or much else.

[Bigun]

His "unviability" is a good reason for the establishment GOP to support him. Ronna McDaniel probably thinks he's swell. It's not like the RNC has any desire to win the White House - or much else.

  

[Maj. Bill Martin]

So do you guys think that Pence should have done as Trump requested, and refused to open/count the ballots?

[Bigun]

So do you guys think that Pence should have done as Trump requested, and refused to open/count the ballots?

I think he should have delayed the counting until he had received assurance from the states the proper electors were the ones seated.

He knew there was fraud and if he sent EC votes back to state legislatures for further review, 12th Amendment would’ve kicked in where GOP House of Reps would’ve voted for Trump

Pence didn’t want that

He certified the fraud and that’s why he will never be elected to federal office again

This is also why the Electoral College Act was amended last year - to make sure no VP could send fraudulent votes back to states

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I think he should have delayed the counting until he had received assurance from the states the proper electors were the ones seated.

All 50 of the states and D.C. knew exactly when the ballots were being opened and counted, and not a single state notified him that it wanted to withdraw or amend its previously-confirmed slate of electors.  Not one.

He knew there was fraud....

Pence "knew" no such thing.  What he did know was that it was two months after the election, and yet not a single court in any state, either federal or state, nor any federal Circuit Court of Appeals, nor the Supreme Court, had found that sufficient fraud existed to change the winner in a state.  Not one court.  Nor - as I pointed out above - had a single state provided notice that it wanted to withdraw its electors.  So regardless of what anyone claims Pence "knew", he had nothing objective on which to rely except his personal say-so.

If he sent EC votes back to state legislatures for further review, 12th Amendment would’ve kicked in where GOP House of Reps would’ve voted for Trump.

And there it is!! So that seemingly tiny, very reasonable demand you had that Pence just "delay[ed] the counting until he had received assurance from the states" wasn't just a delay at all, but just a mechanism for Congress to ignore the electors.

For what it's worth, I don't think Congress would have elected Trump had it gotten to that.  I think it would have elected Biden because you would have had enough Republicans realize that it would have been the end of the Republic.

That being said, I also don't think it would have gone down that way anyway.  I think that if Pence had said "I'm not counting them", that Congress would have opened the ballots and counted them anyway, and declared Biden the winner.

And I think that ultimately, the Supreme Court would have backed them up on that.  There is nothing in the Constitution that authorizes the VP to reject unilaterally the votes of the electoral college.  Literally nothing.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Here is the relevant text of the 12th Amendment:

The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;–the President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;–

"Shall" is mandatory language - it did not give the President of the Senate - Pence - the choice not to open those ballots.  It also says those ballots "shall then" be counted.  Again, the Constitution did not give either Congress or the VP the discretion to not open or not count those ballots, or to send them back to the states.  Not an option under the Constitution.

To the extent anyone would interpret the Electoral Count Act in a way that contradicts either of those "shall" requirements, that interpretation is unconstitutional. 

And Pence knew it.  He also knew that Trump, who took an oath to support and defend the Constitution, was pressuring Pence to violate the Constitution, and that if he didn't, told Pence that things would get very difficult for him.

I don't blame Pence in the least for carrying a grudge against Trump for that, or for believing that Trump is unfit for office.

[Ghost Bear]

Pence committed political suicide during his Tucker Carlson interview a few weeks ago. I know a lot of the anti-Trumpers here were quick to excuse and explain away his comments in that interview, but ordinary Americans who heard the interview immediately realized his campaign was over. Anything he says now is of no further consequence.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Pence committed political suicide during his Tucker Carlson interview a few weeks ago. I know a lot of the anti-Trumpers here were quick to excuse and explain away his comments in that interview, but ordinary Americans who heard the interview immediately realized his campaign was over. Anything he says now is of no further consequence.

No argument there.   I kind of just like the idea of a politician who is willing to tell his story regardless of whether it helps or hurts him politically. He's not my candidate, but I do think he's an honorable guy.

[cato potatoe]

And there it is!! So that seemingly tiny, very reasonable demand you had that Pence just "delay[ed] the counting until he had received assurance from the states" wasn't just a delay at all, but just a mechanism for Congress to ignore the electors.

For what it's worth, I don't think Congress would have elected Trump had it gotten to that.  I think it would have elected Biden because you would have had enough Republicans realize that it would have been the end of the Republic.

That being said, I also don't think it would have gone down that way anyway.  I think that if Pence had said "I'm not counting them", that Congress would have opened the ballots and counted them anyway, and declared Biden the winner.

According to the local papers, the former chief justice of the NC Supreme Court (now dean of a law school) was advising Trump to use Pence as a roadblock.  It never ceases to amaze how many people are willing to destroy their reputations in order to curry favor with a lunatic.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

According to the local papers, the former chief justice of the NC Supreme Court (now dean of a law school) was advising Trump to use Pence as a roadblock.  It never ceases to amaze how many people are willing to destroy their reputations in order to curry favor with a lunatic.

People really need to think through the full impact of the argument they're making, and the precedent they're setting.

If you grant to the VP the non-reviewable, unchallengeable right to reject electors and toss the election to the House of Representatives based solely on his own personal judgement - and that is the argument that was made by the Trump and his allies in this - then what happens the next time we have a Presidential election with an incumbent Democrat Administration that has control of the House?

We'd be handing them complete discretion for the Democrat VP to reject the results of an election they just lost, and to toss it to a compliant House to name the Democrat the winner.  And according to the argument being advanced by some Trumpers, that would be completely consistent with the Constitution, and not subject to challenge in the courts.

That's nuts.

[Bigun]

Here is the relevant text of the 12th Amendment:

"Shall" is mandatory language - it did not give the President of the Senate - Pence - the choice not to open those ballots.  It also says those ballots "shall then" be counted.  Again, the Constitution did not give either Congress or the VP the discretion to not open or not count those ballots, or to send them back to the states.  Not an option under the Constitution.

To the extent anyone would interpret the Electoral Count Act in a way that contradicts either of those "shall" requirements, that interpretation is unconstitutional. 

And Pence knew it.  He also knew that Trump, who took an oath to support and defend the Constitution, was pressuring Pence to violate the Constitution, and that if he didn't, told Pence that things would get very difficult for him.

I don't blame Pence in the least for carrying a grudge against Trump for that, or for believing that Trump is unfit for office.

So rogue elements of a state government could send any list they chose, and the VP is bound to open it.

[DefiantMassRINO]

To be "official", elector ballots need to be "certified" by the state's governor.

If the elector ballot was not "certified" by the state's Governor, it is not "official", and therefore potentially fraudulent.

The time and place to dispute elector ballots was at the state level during the time between the electors casting their votes and the votes being submitted to Congress to be counted.

In 2021, Trump lost the popular vote.  Trump lost the Electoral College.  Trump lost.  Being a sore loser does not entitle a sitting President to subvert or circumvent Constitutional and legal processes that elect our President.

 

In 2023, do you want Kamala Harris to have the ability to nullify a GOP Presidential Election win?  Oh, but that's different because that's not our guy.

There was a time in this country when we did not suffer sore losers and their incessant whining.

[deb]

There was a time in this country when we did not suffer sore losers and their incessant whining.

That time is long gone. Now we laud it. 

[ScottinVA]

To be "official", elector ballots need to be "certified" by the state's governor.

If the elector ballot was not "certified" by the state's Governor, it is not "official", and therefore potentially fraudulent.

The time and place to dispute elector ballots was at the state level during the time between the electors casting their votes and the votes being submitted to Congress to be counted.

In 2021, Trump lost the popular vote.  Trump lost the Electoral College.  Trump lost.  Being a sore loser does not entitle a sitting President to subvert or circumvent Constitutional and legal processes that elect our President.

 

In 2023, do you want Kamala Harris to have the ability to nullify a GOP Presidential Election win?  Oh, but that's different because that's not our guy.

There was a time in this country when we did not suffer sore losers and their incessant whining.

[GtHawk]

To be "official", elector ballots need to be "certified" by the state's governor.

If the elector ballot was not "certified" by the state's Governor, it is not "official", and therefore potentially fraudulent.

The time and place to dispute elector ballots was at the state level during the time between the electors casting their votes and the votes being submitted to Congress to be counted.

In 2021, Trump lost the popular vote.  Trump lost the Electoral College.  Trump lost.  Being a sore loser does not entitle a sitting President to subvert or circumvent Constitutional and legal processes that elect our President. That doesn't mean I like/liked it or that I don't believe that they have targeted Trump with BS prosecutions, but there comes a time when you have to realize that a successful campaign and a win just aren't realistic and move on.

 

In 2023, do you want Kamala Harris to have the ability to nullify a GOP Presidential Election win?  Oh, but that's different because that's not our guy.

There was a time in this country when we did not suffer sore losers and their incessant whining.

Seems to me if I recall correctly, I was young, Nixon had the election stolen from him when Papa Joe bought the election for JFK. Nixon, again if I recall correctly, didn't fight the results because he knew it would be bad for America, and he didn't spend the next for years crying about it everywhere. Was there a lot of vote tampering, yeah I think there was, but the democrats were in control in the courts, the media and congress.