Author Topic: Trump Shreds DeSantis: He ‘Can’t Win the General Election’ Because of Record on Entitlement Programs  (Read 7712 times)

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Offline Kamaji

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Now... If the collected monies were held in bonds, in your name... That would not be a tax.

Not necessarily.  The money could be collected as a tax, and then placed into a bond fund for the benefit of the taxpayer, only to be distributed to the taxpayer upon retirement, with the property interest in the bond fund vested in the taxpayer.

The net effect would be a compulsory contribution to a retirement fund.

Offline Kamaji

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I'm sorry, but I consider it relevant.



That's nice, but unless you can provide a basis for why the difference should be relevant, the fact that you feel it's relevant is just that, your personal subjective feeling.

Personally, I feel that the Moon should be made of green cheese.  My wishes, however, don't make it so.

Online roamer_1

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Not necessarily.  The money could be collected as a tax, and then placed into a bond fund for the benefit of the taxpayer, only to be distributed to the taxpayer upon retirement, with the property interest in the bond fund vested in the taxpayer.

The net effect would be a compulsory contribution to a retirement fund.

Right... But it's still YOUR money and YOUR dividend... secured by the bond instrument, all the way along. There is an argument there.

Money taxed and dumped into the general fund... well that's just a tax.

Offline berdie

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That's nice, but unless you can provide a basis for why the difference should be relevant, the fact that you feel it's relevant is just that, your personal subjective feeling.

Personally, I feel that the Moon should be made of green cheese.  My wishes, however, don't make it so.


Heck @kamagi for all I know the moon is made of green cheese.lol

I know better than to get in a shootin' match with a person that seems to have a firm handle on the law. :laugh:

In an earlier post you illustrated the differences between a 401K/IRA and SS.
A 401K/IRA is voluntary. Withdrawals can have certain tax consequences. However, people that have not contributed have no access to those funds.

SS in not voluntary. People that have not contributed have access to those funds. And as you have stated, there are restrictions on the work requirement for others.

My objection is not to the legal aspect. Of course it wasn't Constitutional. But it was enacted to law under a certain premise. So I guess my gripe is the moral aspect of the Feds taking money from people under false pretenses (I know moral and government is an oxymoron).

So I'll stick with my belief. If the tax was not intended for that reason, it should have been rolled into FICA and not have separate lines on a paycheck and a W-2.

Offline libertybele

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Heck @kamagi for all I know the moon is made of green cheese.lol

I know better than to get in a shootin' match with a person that seems to have a firm handle on the law. :laugh:

In an earlier post you illustrated the differences between a 401K/IRA and SS.
A 401K/IRA is voluntary. Withdrawals can have certain tax consequences. However, people that have not contributed have no access to those funds.

SS in not voluntary. People that have not contributed have access to those funds. And as you have stated, there are restrictions on the work requirement for others.

My objection is not to the legal aspect. Of course it wasn't Constitutional. But it was enacted to law under a certain premise. So I guess my gripe is the moral aspect of the Feds taking money from people under false pretenses (I know moral and government is an oxymoron).

So I'll stick with my belief. If the tax was not intended for that reason, it should have been rolled into FICA and not have separate lines on a paycheck and a W-2.


Agree @berdi 
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Offline sneakypete

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It’s like reparations. If people believe their own money by the government, they will entrenched themselves into that belief.

And there is a significant number of people who are getting more in Social Security benefits then they paid into

But it shows how difficult any reforms will be when even a good number of conservatives believe the lie

@LMAO

You should have written "damn near everybody who was getting it prior to the left deciding to even give it to illegal aliens."

As for even those entitled to it getting more than they paid in,there is no secret about this. It's called "inflation".

Remeber back in the mid 60's,when you could buy a new Ford Mustang for around 1500 bucks? Hell,I bought a new Torino GT with the 428 hi-po engine and 4-speed transmission when I came back from VN in late 1969 for $2500,and that included a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty. It probably costs more than that today to just insure a new Mustang.
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Offline sneakypete

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Yes, I get that it's a tax.  That's not a revelation. However it IS $$ directly taken out of MY check before I even got my hands on it.  Illegal ponzi scheme, whatever, you want to call it -- we were told that it was for SS.  So, it IS MY money.  You are never going to convince me that it isn't.

As for ILLEGALS collecting -- you betcha.  The notion that they don't is false. They also can collect SSI.

@libertybele

They are not SUPPOSED to be able to collect SS or any OTHER benefit from the government,but the leftists in Congress wrote legislation to allow them to get this money in order to buy their votes. THIS is how the Left will end up destroying  the Right and end up turning the US into a leftist police state with no more public elections or public control over anything.

Think "Original Soviet Union,Part 2",and you have it covered. Don't worry,THIS time it's going to work. HONEST!</S>
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Offline sneakypete

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You just don't get it.  You see money taken out of your paycheck for regular income tax, too.  Does that mean its still your money?  No, it doesn't.

You really need to stop believing the lies of liberals.

It is not your money, any more than the regular income tax is still your money, once the tax has been collected.

And social security benefits are nothing more than government-funded welfare benefits. I really don't get why that is such a big problem for some people.

It would still be "your money" if you had a legally enforceable contract that gave you legal recourse to that money.

There is no contract with the federal government for social security welfare benefits.  And therefore, you have no property interest in those benefits, and nothing to call "yours".

Read the law; stop believing the lies of liberals.

@Kamaji

It's not "welfare" if you spent your entire working life paying  into  it. It is a retirement plan for workers too old to work any more.

Or at least that is what it USED to be.
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Offline sneakypete

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So the law itself won’t even convince you :shrug: :


If the government announced today that Social Security and Medicare were too expensive, and therefore, we are now getting rid of them starting today, you would have no legal recourse

@LMAO

The government committing a crime doesn't make it legal OR ethical.
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Offline sneakypete

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No, I was never told it was some sort of insurance program.  *****rollingeyes***** Come on.  This is getting ridiculous.

On a payroll check stub it shows how much $$ is being deducted for SS, Medicare/SSI.  So you tell me  ... if it shows on paycheck stubs where the money is supposed to go and it's arbitrarily taken out of one's check, whose money is it?  It certainly isn't their checks that $$ is being taken out of.

IT. IS. MY. MONEY.

Next.

@libertybele

It is SUPPOSED to BE "Your money",and was until the DNC took control of Congress and decided to use it to buy the votes of illegal aliens so they could stay in power.

Morally and ethically,it is STILL "YOUR" (and MY) money,but good luck finding a lawyer or law firm that is willing to go broke while beating their heads against an moveable wall while trying to even find a court to take the case.
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Offline Kamaji

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Right... But it's still YOUR money and YOUR dividend... secured by the bond instrument, all the way along. There is an argument there.

Money taxed and dumped into the general fund... well that's just a tax.

True enough.

Offline bigheadfred

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How do we get around the government touting this as a retirement fund?
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline libertybele

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How do we get around the government touting this as a retirement fund?

Abolish the IRS.
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Offline corbe

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   GWB tried to start to fix this $hit in his second term and Barney Frank (Q-MA) killed it.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline LMAO

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I still see the "it's my money and retirement fund" folks still think their feelings on the matter override the actual law
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

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Offline LMAO

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@LMAO

The government committing a crime doesn't make it legal OR ethical.

Were's the crime?
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

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My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Online Hoodat

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How do we get around the government touting this as a retirement fund?

By removing the government's access to the funds.

Government can mandate that 14% of everyone's income be invested into a long-term fiduciary fund similar to a 401(K).  Employees can track their funds, make changes to investment categories, and watch their funds grow.  They can even add to these funds beyond the 14% threshold should they so choose.  They can begin drawing on these funds once they reach retirement age as they see fit, with an annuity option included.  And most importantly of all, when they die, their families inherit all unspent funds.   
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

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Online Hoodat

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   GWB tried to start to fix this $hit in his second term and Barney Frank (Q-MA) killed it.

Yep.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline sneakypete

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Abolish the IRS.

@libertybele

You  can't possibly be serious. How would we be able to fund the government if that happened?

You can't possibly believe it would make sense to go on an "honor system" to collect taxes.
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Offline sneakypete

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Were's the crime?

@LMAO

Using revenue that came from taxes designed to fund SS for other purposes is/would be a crime .
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline LMAO

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@LMAO

Using revenue that came from taxes designed to fund SS for other purposes is/would be a crime .

Show me the law that says that
I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them.

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My Avatar is my adult autistic son Tommy

Online cato potatoe

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It's not "welfare" if you spent your entire working life paying  into  it. It is a retirement plan for workers too old to work any more.

Or at least that is what it USED to be.

You paid taxes to support people who are now dead.  That money is gone.  The working age population could vote to cut you off at any time.  Might as well face the ugly truth - it’s a Ponzi Scheme.  I have never understood the affection people have for SSA.  It’s something akin to Stockholm Syndrome.


Offline libertybele

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@libertybele

You  can't possibly be serious. How would we be able to fund the government if that happened?

You can't possibly believe it would make sense to go on an "honor system" to collect taxes.

??? It's one thing to pay taxes on goods, property, etc., and it's quite another to have money taken out of your check for your labor.

That is what I object to.  You get paid to work a job; that is your labor...to be taxed for working is ridiculous -- again, regardless of law, to be taxed on your labor is plain absurd. The gov't didn't lay those bricks, nail shingles, cut wood to build houses, paint, answer the phone, serve dinner, bake a cake, clean homes, clean a sewer, work on an oil rig, teach a class, drive a bus, etc. However money is automatically taken out for your labor before you see a dime.  So -- $$ is taken out for your labor.  Think about it.  On your paycheck stubs for your labor it indicates $$ automatically deducted going into FICA and Medicare. 7.6% of money that you worked for is automatically deducted.

So, don't tell me it isn't MY money. The gov't didn't do my darn job.

That is just plain WRONG!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2023, 12:39:06 am by libertybele »
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Online roamer_1

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??? It's one thing to pay taxes on goods, property, etc., and it's quite another to have money taken out of your check for your labor.

That is what I object to.  You get paid to work a job; that is your labor...to be taxed for working is ridiculous -- again, regardless of law, to be taxed on your labor is plain absurd. The gov't didn't lay those bricks, nail shingles, cut wood to build houses, paint, answer the phone, serve dinner, bake a cake, clean homes, clean a sewer, work on an oil rig, teach a class, drive a bus, etc. However money is automatically taken out for your labor before you see a dime.  So -- $$ is taken out for your labor.  Think about it.  On your paycheck stubs for your labor it indicates $$ automatically deducted going into FICA and Medicare. 7.6% of money that you worked for is automatically deducted.

So, don't tell me it isn't MY money. The gov't didn't do my darn job.

That is just plain WRONG!

Oh you think it's bad as an employee, try being an employer...

Online Hoodat

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On your paycheck stubs for your labor it indicates $$ automatically deducted going into FICA and Medicare. 7.6% of money that you worked for is automatically deducted.

Try 15%.  They just didn't tell you about the other 7.6% of your money they took.


So, don't tell me it isn't MY money. The gov't didn't do my darn job.

It WAS your money.  Government took it at the point of a gun and spent it.  Immediately.  It's gone.  It was not put away for your retirement.  At no time was there ever a plan put in place to do so.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-