Ukraine 4

[Timber Rattler]

Yes! It does! Now tell me how a political slush fund in Ukraine accomplishes that.

Ukraine is not a political slush fund.  I'm getting really tired of that stupid straw man too.

[Timber Rattler]

Actually I don't think they should, I just don't see Ukraine winning no matter how much debt we throw on America's future generations because this will come down to a war of attrition and Russia has many more soldiers to use as cannon fodder than does Ukraine.

So democracies and republics should always surrender to totalitarian regimes because they out number us and it's more convenient?

[Bigun]

Ukraine is not a political slush fund.  I'm getting really tired of that stupid straw man too.

So, YOU say! I beg to differ!  And BTW: I don't give a flyin F' what you are tired of.

[DefiantMassRINO]

Ukraine may not achieve complete victory because the Biden Admin withheld old Warsaw Pact Russian fighters from them early in the war.

The Ukrainians could not press their ground advance with sufficient air support to keep the Russians on the run.

Failure to give Ukraine old Soviet jets early in the war was a lost opportunity for Ukraine and the West.

[Timber Rattler]

So, YOU say! I beg to differ!  And BTW: I don't give a flyin F' what you are tired of.

Well I don't give a flyin F' what you think. Keep on living in the 1930s with your head in the sand if that makes you happy.

[Timber Rattler]

THE HIGH PRICE OF LOSING UKRAINE

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/high-price-losing-ukraine?fbclid=IwAR3hYI_lBedpTTtIT_wvxIoC8egW-BR9a6nfKxMR8cayuUpXp3OLK6UbXkA

The United States has a much higher stake in Russia's war on Ukraine than most people think. A Russian conquest of all of Ukraine is by no means impossible if the United States cuts off all military assistance and Europe follows suit. Such an outcome would bring a battered but triumphant Russian army right up to NATO’s border from the Black Sea to the Arctic Ocean. The Ukrainian military with Western support has destroyed nearly 90% of the Russian army that invaded in February 2022 according to US intelligence sources, but the Russians have replaced those manpower losses and are ramping up their industrial base to make good their material losses at a rate much faster than their pre-war capacity had permitted.[1]

A victorious Russian army at the end of this war will be combat experienced and considerably larger than the pre-2022 Russian land forces. The Russian economy will gradually recover as sanctions inevitably erode and Moscow develops ways to circumvent or mitigate those that remain. Over time it will replace its equipment and rebuild its coherence, drawing on a wealth of hard-won experience fighting mechanized warfare. It will bring with it advanced air defense systems that only American stealth aircraft—badly needed to deter and confront China—can reliably penetrate. Russia can pose a major conventional military threat to NATO for the first time since the 1990s in a timeframe set to a considerable extent by how much the Kremlin invests in its military. Since Moscow has already committed to an ambitious post-war military expansion program the US cannot be confident that the timeframe will be very long.[2]

The overall military potential of the United States and its NATO allies is so much greater than that of Russia that there is no reason to doubt the West’s ability to defeat any conceivable Russian military even assuming that Russia fully absorbs Ukraine and Belarus. But as Americans consider the costs of continuing to help Ukraine fight the Russians in the coming years, they deserve a careful consideration of the costs of allowing Russia to win. Those costs are much higher than most people imagine.

To deter and defend against a renewed Russian threat following a full Russian victory in Ukraine the United States will have to deploy to Eastern Europe a sizable portion of its ground forces. The United States will have to station in Europe a large number of stealth aircraft. Building and maintaining those aircraft is intrinsically expensive, but challenges in manufacturing them rapidly will likely force the United States to make a terrible choice between keeping enough in Asia to defend Taiwan and its other Asian allies and deterring or defeating a Russian attack on a NATO ally. The entire undertaking will cost a fortune, and the cost will last as long as the Russian threat continues—potentially indefinitely.

Almost any other outcome of the Ukraine war is preferable to this one. Helping Ukraine keep the lines where they are through continuous Western military support is far more advantageous and cheaper for the United States than allowing Ukraine to lose. “Freezing” the conflict is worse than continuing to help Ukraine fight—that would simply give Russia time and space to prepare for a renewed war to conquer Ukraine and confront NATO. Helping Ukraine regain control of all or most of its territory would be much more advantageous, as it would drive Russian forces even further to the east. Best of all, supporting Ukraine to its victory and then helping it rebuild would put the largest and most combat-effective friendly military on the European continent at the forefront of the defense of NATO—whether Ukraine does or does not ultimately join the alliance.

In all these scenarios Americans should keep in mind that Ukraine is not Afghanistan. Afghanistan in 2001 was one of the poorest countries in the world with no industry to speak of and a poorly-educated population. Ukraine is highly industrialized with a modern, urban, and highly educated population. Restored to its 1991 borders Ukraine’s economy is large enough to support its own military. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has recently committed his country to establishing its own military industry including by establishing joint ventures with Western firms to benefit Ukraine and its partners.[3] A victorious Ukraine would not be a permanent ward of the West. It can instead be truly independent and contribute greatly to NATO’s security and the West’s economy.

[DefiantMassRINO]

If Russia wins or maintains a freeze in Ukraine, that emboldens China to move on Taiwan and the South China Sea, and the nations around the South China Sea.

China doesn't necessarily have to invade, it just needs to interfere in each nation's internal politics to install a Government favorable to China and Chinese Communist Party influence.

Iran will be emboldened to continue its struggle against Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and the West for hegemony of the Middle East.

It is to the advantage of the Axis of Evil - Russia, Iran, China, North Korea - to wage conflict on multiple fronts against the West.  This will bleed the West of the resources and resolve necessary to outright defeat the Axis nations.

Victory for the Axis of Evil and its proxies is just to live to fight another day.

[GtHawk]

So democracies and republics should always surrender to totalitarian regimes because they out number us and it's more convenient?

Should the American people be on the hook for paying the cost of what will end up like Vietnam or Korea? How long till the impossibility of winning is accepted? Let Germany and Europe pay the cost to keep that war going, we have our own war going on at our own borders and not jack is being done about it. Where was America and it's promise of aid when the Russians rolled over Hungary? Sometimes reality has to be acknowledged no matter how many wishes and platitudes you come up with.

Tell me, when the arms alone are not enough, when the men and women of Ukraine are exhausted through attrition, will you want to send Americans to die for Ukraine so that there is no surrender to a totalitarian regime? Where and when does it end? Sorry I have no nephews or grandsons to send to die for another nation all in the name of holding back the red menace Not a single damn war fought against communism have we won, even Reagan bringing down the Berlin wall was just a small win as socialism/communism still took hold in most of Europe.

[DB]

Well I don't give a flyin F' what you think. Keep on living in the 1930s with your head in the sand if that makes you happy.

I think there's a failure to communicate...

@Bigun 's primary issue is cash, not weapons. We should not be sending cash to Ukraine for all those involved to grift from. Weapons on the other hand should be given freely as long as they are willing to use them on the Russian invaders. We should be giving them better weapons, weapons to win with.

[Timber Rattler]

How long till the impossibility of winning is accepted?

With attitudes like that, the U.S. would have given up after Corregidor and Kasserine Pass.

Tell me, when the arms alone are not enough, when the men and women of Ukraine are exhausted through attrition, will you want to send Americans to die for Ukraine so that there is no surrender to a totalitarian regime? Where and when does it end? Sorry I have no nephews or grandsons to send to die for another nation all in the name of holding back the red menace

You and the other appeasers and isolationists are all suffering under the arrogant delusion that our country's enemies have no say in that situation.  Have you forgotten Pearl Harbor and 9/11 too?

Not a single damn war fought against communism have we won, even Reagan bringing down the Berlin wall was just a small win as socialism/communism still took hold in most of Europe.

Well let's all just surrender to the ChiComs and get it over then.  Better red than dead, right?

[berdie]

Hard for me to understand why it's so hard to do something about our own borders so that more funding can go to Ukraine It's not Rocket Surgery, do the right thing for Americans and then do the right thing for Ukraine.

Oooh, Oooh, ask me (hand waving frantically). They have no desire to secure our borders. It is the plan.

[sneakypete]

Hard for me to understand why it's so hard to do something about our own borders so that more funding can go to Ukraine It's not Rocket Surgery, do the right thing for Americans and then do the right thing for Ukraine.

@GtHawk

Why were you surprised?

Probably half of Congress would support a Putin run for the US Presidency.

[sneakypete]

Yes! It does! Now tell me how a political slush fund in Ukraine accomplishes that.

@Bigun

Seriously?????

You  can't see how Ukraine defeating the Russian invasion weakens communism?

[sneakypete]

America funds Ukraine in the hopes it doesn't have to fund more countries in a larger war should Russia succeed.

I don't like writing it,but that is almost a certainty. Help Ukraine to defeat the Neo-Soviets,and not only  will Pooty-Poot be removed from office,chances are he will be executed. This just MIGHT cause his replacement to be a little more moderate and a LOT less adventuress.

Unfortunately for the Ukranains, the Biden Admin is only supplying enough to maintain a protracted stalemate, not all out victory.

Chances are they are stealing at least half the money.

[sneakypete]

Actually I don't think they should, I just don't see Ukraine winning no matter how much debt we throw on America's future generations because this will come down to a war of attrition and Russia has many more soldiers to use as cannon fodder than does Ukraine.

@GtHawk

Good point!

We might as well go ahead and surrender to Russia and China now. Just look at all the lives it would save!

WARNING! There MAY be some slight traces of sarcasm in the above post!

[Bigun]

I think there's a failure to communicate...

@Bigun 's primary issue is cash, not weapons. We should not be sending cash to Ukraine for all those involved to grift from. Weapons on the other hand should be given freely as long as they are willing to use them on the Russian invaders. We should be giving them better weapons, weapons to win with.

That's exactly right! I'm sick to death of USA taxpayers providing ATMs to crooked politicians anywhere!

No different than donating $1.00 to United Fund and seeing $.10 get to people who actually need it.

[sneakypete]

That's exactly right! I'm sick to death of USA taxpayers providing ATMs to crooked politicians anywhere!

No different than donating $1.00 to United Fund and seeing $.10 get to people who actually need it.

@Bigun

If we could control human nature to the point where greed and the desire for power and wealth were eliminated,there would be no need for armies.

Or police stations and prisons.

Sometimes you just have to establish a balance between the good and the bad in  order for "good" to even be possible,never mind guaranteed.

Or put another way,TRY to establish a balance between good and evil,with the scales tilting towards "good".

[kevindavis007]

https://twitter.com/TomMoyerUT/status/1735532555007639778?t=FwAHwRPYAJ_JeMs4i4b0zg&s=19

[kevindavis007]

https://twitter.com/robert_zubrin/status/1735649306864951631?t=pVoUm1UXlCCdbnMYxft3ow&s=19

[Bigun]

@Bigun

If we could control human nature to the point where greed and the desire for power and wealth were eliminated,there would be no need for armies.

Or police stations and prisons.

Sometimes you just have to establish a balance between the good and the bad in  order for "good" to even be possible,never mind guaranteed.

Or put another way,TRY to establish a balance between good and evil,with the scales tilting towards "good".

There are ways to get things done without further allowing the wholesale robbery of American taxpayers. @sneakypete

[kevindavis007]

https://twitter.com/McFaul/status/1735724010737172629?t=dqbgS_5xQBozDXOylSRvHw&s=19

[Hoodat]

[Hoodat]

‘Complete Annihilation’: Five Russian Battalions Went Up In Smoke And Flames Trying To Surround Avdiivka

David Axe  •  5h

The Russian army has lost at least 211 armored vehicles trying, and so far failing, to surround and cut off the Ukrainian garrison in Avdiivka, just northwest of Russian-occupied Donetsk city in eastern Ukraine.

Ukrainian analysis group Frontelligence Insight scrutinized satellite imagery and verified all 211 wrecked and abandoned vehicles. Its tally aligns with a U.S. intelligence assessment, which concluded the Russians have lost 220 vehicles around Avdiivka—and 13,000 people, too.  .  .

.  .  .  The vehicle toll “surpasses Russian losses in any other single battle,” Frontelligence reported, “making it the most devastating battle for Russian forces in terms of vehicle losses.”
Losing at least 211 vehicles and 13,000 soldiers killed and wounded amounts to the “complete annihilation of five battalions,” according to Frontelligence. “This represents significant losses in both equipment and personnel, considering the achieved results.”  .  .

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/complete-annihilation-five-russian-battalions-went-up-in-smoke-and-flames-trying-to-surround-avdiivka/ar-AA1lzJy3

[DB]

13,000 Russian soldiers???

[Elderberry]

Defense of Ukraine
@DefenceU
When you're driving a tracked combat vehicle, the weather doesn't matter.

https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1735978828537754052

This looks like the road I drove thru at Dayton Lake Estates.