Ukraine 4

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Thank you.
The seminal issue. I'm nor even sure how corrupt Zelensky is compared to some of the people he has to tread lightly with or placate to get the materiel aid he needs to fight. A hat tip to the whole climate change thing, a real hot topic with the UN crowd, does not put him licking Greta's toes or any of that other nonsense, it's just the price of admission to get to the mike. If someone wants to go tearing down that rabbit hole, go for it, but it is a minor distraction, especially when you consider the 'carbon footprint'  of fighting a war, blowing things up and burning them down, and the fuel it takes to get to the things you blow up and burn down.

Those are great points.

Ukraine is in an existential fight for its continued existence, and everything else is secondary to that if you're the President of that country and doing your job.   I don't blame Zelensky one bit for saying whatever he needs to do to try to keep his country in the fight.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

You don't need to vote on it. You are free to do that at any time you choose.

I don't mean leave. I mean vote to secede.

I mean, this is offtopic for this discussion, but this point isn't well fleshed out by either side, and something I've wondered a lot about.

[Timber Rattler]

Institute for the Study of War

ISW has observed a significant inflection in western #Zaporizhia Oblast:

#Ukrainian forces are for the first time confirmed to be operating armored vehicles (Stryker & Marder infantry fighting vehicles) beyond the Russian anti-tank ditch and dragon’s teeth obstacles near #Verbove.

We are not yet prepared to say that Ukraine has broken through this portion of the Russian line since these vehicles have not yet penetrated the last visible prepared defensive positions in the area.

But the ability to bring armored vehicles to and through the most formidable Russian defenses intended to stop them and to operate them near prepared Russian defensive positions is an important sign of progress in the Ukrainian counteroffensive.
Recent footage indicates that the Ukrainian breach of the first two layers of this Russian defensive line is significant enough to permit Ukrainian vehicles to advance through them.

It also indicates that Ukrainian forces have suppressed Russian artillery and other anti-tank systems in the area enough to bring their vehicles forward and have them survive.

These small tactical steps may be the start of a larger and more significant advance, although it is too soon to make confident forecasts.

[Hoodat]

2. By keeping Russia tied up in Ukraine, we can weaken both Russia and China, which is essential for the well-being of our country.
[/size]

ANY QUESTIONS???

I take exception to this premise (i.e. the Biden doctrine).  If the goal is to weaken Russia, then the quicker their army is driven out of Ukraine, the eager they will be.

Once Russia loses this war (and the Ukraine boogeyman is removed from the equation), only then will Putin be at risk of overthrow.  And with a defeated army, the threat they impose to their newbies is dissipated.

[kevindavis007]

Can you direct me to the word or phrase in the Constitution that says a state cannot leave the union? I have diligently searched for that and came up empty. @kevindavis007

@Bigun


I don't recall seeing an exit clause in the Constitution.

[Bigun]

@Bigun


I don't recall seeing an exit clause in the Constitution.

None is required you dolt! The Constitution says what it says and does not say what it does not say! @kevindavis007 

[Timber Rattler]

@Bigun


I don't recall seeing an exit clause in the Constitution.

There isn't, which was one of the legal arguments the Confederate States used in seceding from the Union.  It's one of the reasons that Jefferson Davis was never tried for treason and was released from Fortress Monroe in May 1867, because the U.S. government was afraid that he would win the argument during a trial.  As it happened, the Supreme Court declared secession illegal in 1868:

Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1868)

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/74/700/

PRIMARY HOLDING

States do not have the right to unilaterally secede from the United States, so the Confederate states during the Civil War always remained part of the nation.

[Bigun]

There isn't, which was one of the legal arguments the Confederate States used in seceding from the Union.  It's one of the reasons that Jefferson Davis was never tried for treason and was released from Fortress Monroe in May 1867, because the U.S. government was afraid that he would win the argument during a trial.  As it happened, the Supreme Court declared secession illegal in 1868:

Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1868)

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/74/700/

And there is not one word of Constitutional language cited in that very political decision. They made it up out of whole cloth.

[Smokin Joe]

@Bigun


I don't recall seeing an exit clause in the Constitution.

Very well, then. There is no anti-exit clause prohibiting such, making the compact one held in perpetuity. With that: Amendment 10

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” ...

Could be construed to mean the power to withdraw from the compact resides with the Several and sovereign states.  Prior to the Constitution, my ancestors swore an oath of loyalty to the Sovereign State of Maryland, which in the interim between the defeat of the British and the Articles of Confederation, was, like the other former colonies, a sovereign nation (AKA: a State, not in the far diminished context used for those political jurisdictions post-bellum).

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

None is required you dolt! The Constitution says what it says and does not say what it does not say! @kevindavis007 

Clause 1 Admissions
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Can be interpretted several ways no?

[Bigun]

Can be interpretted several ways no?

No! It cannot! Despite the fact that The Lincoln administration COMPLETELY ignored it and created the state of West Virginnia anyway.

[Smokin Joe]

Can be interpretted several ways no?

Maybe, if the words are twisted enough. That is the disposition of states within the compact, or the addition of new states, but does not address an exit by one or more states, entirely, from the jurisdiction of the compact. The very grievances which might lead entire states to exit are most likely to be the result of the treatment by the majority of representatives (from other states) in Congress. i.e., If the rest of the States voted to dissolve the State of Texas and remove its assets from all who live there, the natural resources, and industry included, Texas might be inclined to withdraw from the jurisdiction of the government which would loot it. Obviously, the Rights of Texans and Texas would be violated by such an action. There is nothing in the Constitution to prohibit that  withdrawal.
Only military force could impose such "union", in violation of the Rights named in the Constitution, as Amended (like was done last time the issue presented). Conquest is not consent, it is subjugation.

[Kamaji]

[PeteS in CA]

I'm not this forum's Resident Cat-Herder, but this thread is about 21st Century events not on the North American continent.

[Kamaji]

I'm not this forum's Resident Cat-Herder, but this thread is about 21st Century events not on the North American continent.

At least!

[Bigun]

I'm not this forum's Resident Cat-Herder, but this thread is about 21st Century events not on the North American continent.

When someone here starts talking out their @$$ I will respond.

[Smokin Joe]

When someone here starts talking out their @$$ I will respond.

Me, too. Now back to the deepest darkest jungles of Eastern Europe.

[Mod2]

Let's stay on topic, shall we? Not the American Civil War. Ukraine.

[kevindavis007]

This:

https://twitter.com/mustlovesnark/status/1704688803946872850

[kevindavis007]

https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1704699760844636481

[libertybele]

Zelenskyy visiting Canada for first time since war started seeking to shore up support for Ukraine

krainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy will address the Canadian Parliament on Friday as he continues his efforts to shore up support from Western allies for Ukraine’s war against the Russian invasion.

Zelenskyy was scheduled to arrive at Ottawa’s airport late Thursday after meeting with U.S. President Joe Biden and lawmakers in Washington, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s office said.

Trudeau planned to greet Zelenskyy and also to speak in Parliament in Ottawa on Friday.

It is Zelenskyy’s first visit to Canada since Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022. He previously addressed the Canadian Parliament virtually after the war started.

Zelenskyy and Trudeau are scheduled to go from Ottawa to Toronto to meet with the local Ukrainian community. Canada is home to about 1.4 million people of Ukrainian descent, close to 4% of the population.

The Ukrainian president is making the trip after stops at the United Nations and the White House.

Canada's U.N. ambassador, Bob Rae, said it is important for Zelenskyy to see the extent to which Canada supports Ukraine in the war.

“We have done a lot to help him and we need to do more,” Rae said. “We’re going to continue to do everything we can to support the Ukrainian people."..............

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/zelenskyy-visiting-canada-for-first-time-since-war-started-seeking-to-shore-up-support-for-ukraine/ar-AA1h4WYi?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=b68b538e6d5c4f2f8e66f89f239df9ca&ei=15

[Hoodat]

Clause 1 Admissions
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Can be interpretted several ways no?

Virginia wasn't a 'New State'.

[mystery-ak]

Biden’s Long-Promised Abrams M1 Main Battle Tanks to Arrive in Ukraine ‘Next Week’

The first tranche of President Joe Biden’s long-promised M1 main battle tanks for Ukraine will arrive in theater next week, Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky was assured Thursday during a White House meeting.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/09/22/bidens-long-promised-abrams-m1-main-battle-tanks-to-arrive-in-ukraine-next-week/

[PeteS in CA]

More trouble for Russia's Black Sea Fleet:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEDNr_-favc

4 minute video. It appears that Russian air defenses have been sufficiently weakened in recent weeks that bases such as Sevastopol have become much more vulnerable.

[PeteS in CA]

Like the German Leopard 2s that Ukraine is using, the training for the M1 Abrams involved a lot more than learning where levers and gauges were located. Leopards and Abrams were designed for a very different strategy than the Soviets/Russians planned to employ, and the sensors on both are much more capable that what the Soviet era tanks Ukraine had inherited and updated have.