Author Topic: Ukraine 4  (Read 220494 times)

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Offline ScottinVA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1425 on: September 01, 2023, 11:40:18 pm »
Is it possible that Volodymyr Zelenskyy sees war as a profit model for him?
Is he holding back because he wants the war?

Not that Vladimir “Lebensraum” Putin’s lust for reestablishing the USSR has anything to do with it.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2023, 11:43:10 pm by ScottinVA »

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1426 on: September 01, 2023, 11:46:17 pm »
Is it possible that Volodymyr Zelenskyy sees war as a profit model for him?
Is he holding back because he wants the war?

IMHO, yes to both.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline 240B

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1427 on: September 01, 2023, 11:51:16 pm »
Not that Vladimir “Lebensraum” Putin’s lust for reestablishing the USSR has anything to do with it.
OK ... so do it. Putin is not going to launch nuclear. And even if he did, none of his commanders would follow him.
I am saying that it is past time for Ukraine to get serious. Drone Moscow City Electric.
Take away their electricity and then they will know that we are all playing for real.
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1428 on: September 01, 2023, 11:54:21 pm »
OK ... so do it. Putin is not going to launch nuclear. And even if he did, none of his commanders would follow him.
I am saying that it is past time for Ukraine to get serious. Drone Moscow City Electric.
Take away their electricity and then they will know that we are all playing for real.

That is such a steaming hot pile of B.S.  Ukraine has more urgent priorities for its drones, such as attacking the orcs that currently infest parts of their territory.  The drone attacks on Russia proper so far have been more in the line of feints, designed to keep the Russians off-balance.  Further, the fact of the matter is that Russia has still managed to shoot down a significant number of the Ukraine drones being deployed against it, and that would almost certainly be a much higher number for things like electric infrastructure.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1429 on: September 02, 2023, 12:02:11 am »
That is such a steaming hot pile of B.S.  Ukraine has more urgent priorities for its drones, such as attacking the orcs that currently infest parts of their territory.  The drone attacks on Russia proper so far have been more in the line of feints, designed to keep the Russians off-balance.  Further, the fact of the matter is that Russia has still managed to shoot down a significant number of the Ukraine drones being deployed against it, and that would almost certainly be a much higher number for things like electric infrastructure.
Why do it now? Wait for winter.

Also, not sure if Nuke plants rely on line power for cooling systems.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1430 on: September 02, 2023, 12:30:04 am »
Is it possible that Volodymyr Zelenskyy sees war as a profit model for him?
Is he holding back because he wants the war?

@240B

I could very likely be wrong,but I SUSPECT it MIGHT be because if he did that,the Soviets would do the same to Ukraine.

Frankly,I have no freaking idea what is going through what is left of Putin's mind at this time,other than "How can I insure MY PERSONAL survival"?

Sooner or later the senior Soviet Generals are going to remember where they hide their balls,and Putin either immediately comes up with a plan to stop the war the Ukrainians will agreed to,or Putin is going to get replaced.
'
I think we all know what happens to Soviet Maximum Leaders that get "replaced".
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Offline 240B

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1431 on: September 02, 2023, 12:55:15 am »
Further, the fact of the matter is that Russia has still managed to shoot down a significant number of the Ukraine drones being deployed against it, and that would almost certainly be a much higher number for things like electric infrastructure.
OK
What is the difference between 100 and 1000. They can 'shoot down' all they want. I will still hit the target.
Drones are drones. They exist to be shot down. But not before they do their business.
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline Timber Rattler

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1432 on: September 02, 2023, 11:30:56 am »
Small unit war.  House by house.  Village by village.

A Brutal Path Forward, Village by Village

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/02/world/europe/ukraine-russia-counteroffensive.html

Quote
The mission for the Ukrainian unit was to take a single house, in a village that is only a speck on the map but was serving as a stronghold for Russian soldiers.

Andriy, a veteran marine, had waited for three days with his small assault team — none of whom had seen combat before — as other Ukrainian units crawled through minefields, stormed trenches and cleared a path to the farming village of Urozhaine. Finally, one day last month, the order came to move.

They raced to a predetermined location in an armored personnel carrier, and disembarked as explosions and gunfire rattled the ground beneath their feet, Andriy and members of his unit said. Driving out or killing the remaining Russians, they secured the house as night fell, posting guards and reviewing the day’s tactics to see how they might improve.

In the morning, the new order came: Take another house.

The monthslong campaign to breach heavily fortified Russian lines is being conducted in many domains and in many forms of battle, with artillery duels and drone strikes across the breadth of the front in southern Ukraine. But the engine driving the effort are hundreds of small-scale assault groups, often just eight to 10 soldiers, each tasked with attacking a single trench, tree line or house.

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Offline 240B

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1433 on: September 02, 2023, 12:48:32 pm »
Total bullshit. What’s next, ranting about the Joos?
@Kamaji
That made me chuckle. I am "the Joos" ... dumbass.
אני אוהב אותך
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1434 on: September 02, 2023, 02:33:17 pm »
Is it possible that Volodymyr Zelenskyy sees war as a profit model for him?
Is he holding back because he wants the war?


Maybe he doesn't want Ukraine to be part of Russia again!!
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1435 on: September 02, 2023, 02:40:51 pm »
@Kamaji
That made me chuckle. I am "the Joos" ... dumbass.
אני אוהב אותך

@240B

LOL!
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1436 on: September 02, 2023, 02:42:46 pm »

Maybe he doesn't want Ukraine to be part of Russia again!!

@kevindavis007

Given what is in store for him and his family if Ukraine looses and the Soviets occupy Ukraine again,MY best guess is he wants to win independence from Russia.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1437 on: September 02, 2023, 03:00:31 pm »
@kevindavis007

Given what is in store for him and his family if Ukraine looses and the Soviets occupy Ukraine again,MY best guess is he wants to win independence from Russia.

The past 100 years of Soviet/Russian starving and oppressing/suppressing Ukrainians and Ukrainian culture probably is a motive as well.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1438 on: September 02, 2023, 03:21:25 pm »
The past 100 years of Soviet/Russian starving and oppressing/suppressing Ukrainians and Ukrainian culture probably is a motive as well.

Ukrainians have a deep-seated hatred of Russians for exactly the reasons you state.  goopo
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Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1439 on: September 02, 2023, 03:35:47 pm »
Ukrainians have a deep-seated hatred of Russians for exactly the reasons you state.  goopo

There's a personal side in this that I very occasionally mention. My Dad's parents emigrated from what is now Ukraine in the 00s, knowing what was coming - being German and land-owning farmers. My grandmother's brothers did not. They were in the army and ended up serving through WW1. They were in touch with my grandparents in the early-mid 20s, but then went silent. Whether as "formers", ethnic Germans, sons-of-kulaks, or in the Holodomor, Stalin killed them among the 10s of millions of ordinary people he killed. Neither a rebuilding of the Soviet empire nor Russia again having power over Ukraine will be a good thing.

On another tack, besides Ukraine grinding down Russian armor and air - weapons and skilled/trained personnel US forces now could never face - the US is learning A LOT about Russian weapons and tactics (just as the US has, for decades, from Israel).
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1440 on: September 02, 2023, 05:06:13 pm »
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1441 on: September 02, 2023, 05:42:24 pm »
@Kamaji
That made me chuckle. I am "the Joos" ... dumbass.
אני אוהב אותך

התחושה היא הדדית.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1442 on: September 02, 2023, 05:44:31 pm »
Another fire in Russia:

Stuck around St. Petersburg when I saw it was a time for a change . . .
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline ScottinVA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1443 on: September 02, 2023, 06:21:10 pm »
OK ... so do it. Putin is not going to launch nuclear. And even if he did, none of his commanders would follow him.
I am saying that it is past time for Ukraine to get serious. Drone Moscow City Electric.
Take away their electricity and then they will know that we are all playing for real.

I’m sure they’re working toward that.  Currently - unlike the Russians who titillate themselves by targeting innocent civilians - the Ukrainians are hitting military targets.. and with appreciable success.

Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1444 on: September 02, 2023, 10:05:51 pm »
With the majority of weapons production outside of Ukraine, striking civilian populations does nothing but cause suffering and terror. It also consumes Russian weapons without military benefit.

The Russians are going to own this horror for many decades to come. They're going to go down in the history books as little different than the NAZIs.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1445 on: September 02, 2023, 10:57:01 pm »
Is it possible that Volodymyr Zelenskyy sees war as a profit model for him?
Is he holding back because he wants the war?

For a long time, the US and other Western governments deliberately withheld from Ukraine any long-range weapons that could reach inside Russia, and for that matter a lot of basic offensive weapon systems like tanks.  We basically gave Ukraine only enough support not to lose.

Even now, the single biggest disparity on the front is Russian air power, and it is very difficult to conduct consistent offensive ground operations when the other side has the advantage in the air.   And we still haven't begun to provide the Ukrainians with even older-generation F-16's, so that disadvantage is going to be in place for a while.

They do have more drones now, but the reality is that drone strikes against civilian infrastructure are no more likely to get Russia to end the war than they were able to get Ukraine to surrender.   The best use of those weapons if you actually intend to win the war is to use them against select, high-value military targets. 

The problem is that such targets don't always make themselves readily available for such strikes.   Also, because those munitions aren't unlmited, it makes sense to hold them until their military impact can be maximized.  Most likely, that means striking at key communications and supply centers in Zaporizhzhia, Kherson, and Crimea only after the land bridge from Russia has been severed.

In other words...no.  Zelensky isn't trying trying to prolong the war.  This is just what a real war looks like.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2023, 10:58:39 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1446 on: September 02, 2023, 11:17:05 pm »
...
In other words...no.  Zelensky isn't trying trying to prolong the war.  This is just what a real war looks like.

War looks different when resources are limited and it's up close and existential.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1447 on: September 03, 2023, 12:16:18 am »
For a long time, the US and other Western governments deliberately withheld from Ukraine any long-range weapons that could reach inside Russia, and for that matter a lot of basic offensive weapon systems like tanks.  We basically gave Ukraine only enough support not to lose.

Word.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1448 on: September 03, 2023, 12:50:15 am »
I’m sure they’re working toward that.  Currently - unlike the Russians who titillate themselves by targeting innocent civilians - the Ukrainians are hitting military targets.. and with appreciable success.

@ScottinVA

And THAT,my friends,is where "the rubber meets the road". The Soviets  are fools that are willing to sacrifice their working-class males to an amazing degree,as long as the political leadership suffers no harm.

At the rate things are going,there just may be some changes made in an "old town" in the near future. After all,you can only draft and sacrifice so many  young men before their families start thinking about certain deaths closer to home,and MY best GUESS is even in Moscow and St.Petersburg,the working class families are getting tired of seeing their boys go off to war and not coming back home unless it is in a box.

Not to mention that NO ruler,or even dictator,can continue to have senior Generals removed from their commands and/or executed before the military  starts to think about a coup.

As Bob Dillion once noted,"The times,they are a-changing."
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #1449 on: September 03, 2023, 12:52:51 am »
With the majority of weapons production outside of Ukraine, striking civilian populations does nothing but cause suffering and terror. It also consumes Russian weapons without military benefit.

The Russians are going to own this horror for many decades to come. They're going to go down in the history books as little different than the NAZIs.

@DB

Truth to tell,they were ALWAYS a little more brutal than the Nazi's. The primary difference is unlike the Nazi's,the Soviets didn't do much bragging about their atrocities against their own people.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!