Author Topic: Ukraine 4  (Read 224618 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline PeteS in CA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,359
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #975 on: July 13, 2023, 03:15:07 pm »
Russia has not always been an isolationist state.

It's greatest imperial need has always been warm water ports, which it has traditionally sought along the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea for year round trade and naval bases.

During the Cold War, there was the fear that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan would be a stepping stone towards acquiring a warm water port on the Indian Ocean, possibly by invading Pakistan.

"Kaliningrad" was originally the Prussian (= German) city of Königsberg, which Stalin bit off from what became Poland after WW2 (the whole nation of Poland shifted west after WW2, with Stalin keeping the part of Poland that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact gave the USSR). More Russian "isolationism".
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80,154
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #976 on: July 13, 2023, 04:17:44 pm »
So Peter the Great didn't capture what became St. Petersburg from Sweden and its design was not inspired by Venice and Paris (with architects to match)?

So Catherine the Great didn't complete the conquest of Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula?
So Catherine didn't import German farmers to bring modern agriculture practices to Russia and the Ukraine, people who came to be called "Volga Germans"?
So Russian Czars didn't bite off parts of Poland until Poland was no more?
So Russian Czars didn't fight wars to add Central Asian regions to their empire?
So the Crimean War wasn't caused by Russia trying to bite off parts from the Ottoman Empire?
So Lenin didn't try to reconquer Poland?
So Stalin didn't try to conquer Finland?
So Stalin didn't conquer and retain the Baltic nations in and after WW2?

For good or for ill, conquering and reconquering is what Europeans do ---- to each other and anywhere else they can.  For Europeans, borders are a temporary nuisance and changing them is their favorite parlor game.

Keep them away from us and let them play with each other until they finally exhaust themselves.

BTW, remember this slogan of national pride from World History classes: "The sun never sets on the British flag"?


Online libertybele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,933
  • Gender: Female
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #977 on: July 13, 2023, 04:20:20 pm »
For good or for ill, conquering and reconquering is what Europeans do ---- to each other and anywhere else they can.  For Europeans, borders are a temporary nuisance and changing them is their favorite parlor game.

Keep them away from us and let them play with each other until they finally exhaust themselves.

BTW, remember this slogan of national pride from World History classes: "The sun never sets on the British flag"?

That's been going on for centuries, so again, why are we paying for a war that isn't ours??
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Online Maj. Bill Martin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Gender: Male
  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #978 on: July 13, 2023, 04:24:33 pm »
For good or for ill, conquering and reconquering is what Europeans do ---- to each other and anywhere else they can.  For Europeans, borders are a temporary nuisance and changing them is their favorite parlor game.

It was.  But this is no longer the last millenium.

That ship sailed in the aftermath of WW2 and the creation of NATO.  The major European powers - Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, etc. proved over the course of the last three quarters of a century - multiple generations -  that they no longer had any interest in warring among themselves over territory and borders.  They had advanced sufficiently economically to where war was no longer in their national interest, and their people had no interest in fighting. 

That's precisely the reason we had such a hard time getting them to meet their NATO military spending obligations. Those countries simply no longer had an interest in war in Europe for profit.

And that is the exact reason Europe has had this kind of reaction to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.  They really thought they had banished major wars of conquest from Europe forever, and then Russia chose to return that scourge to the continent.

Pretending that this is just more of the same is pretending the last 75 years don't exist.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2023, 04:26:16 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Kamaji

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58,100
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #979 on: July 13, 2023, 04:48:57 pm »
It was.  But this is no longer the last millenium.

That ship sailed in the aftermath of WW2 and the creation of NATO.  The major European powers - Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, etc. proved over the course of the last three quarters of a century - multiple generations -  that they no longer had any interest in warring among themselves over territory and borders.  They had advanced sufficiently economically to where war was no longer in their national interest, and their people had no interest in fighting. 

That's precisely the reason we had such a hard time getting them to meet their NATO military spending obligations. Those countries simply no longer had an interest in war in Europe for profit.

And that is the exact reason Europe has had this kind of reaction to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.  They really thought they had banished major wars of conquest from Europe forever, and then Russia chose to return that scourge to the continent.

Pretending that this is just more of the same is pretending the last 75 years don't exist.



:thumbsup:

Online Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,977
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #980 on: July 13, 2023, 04:57:35 pm »
"Kaliningrad" was originally the Prussian (= German) city of Königsberg, which Stalin bit off from what became Poland after WW2 (the whole nation of Poland shifted west after WW2, with Stalin keeping the part of Poland that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact gave the USSR). More Russian "isolationism".

I never understood how the entire world could go to war against Germany because of their invasion of Poland, yet after Germany's defeat, Poland remained unrestored.

Also, don't forget Stalin taking a bite out of Finland, too.  Not to mention their land grab from Japan after Hiroshima as well as part of Manchuria.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline PeteS in CA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,359
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #981 on: July 13, 2023, 06:20:45 pm »
It was.  But this is no longer the last millenium.

That ship sailed in the aftermath of WW2 and the creation of NATO.  The major European powers - Germany, France, the UK, Italy, Spain, etc. proved over the course of the last three quarters of a century - multiple generations -  that they no longer had any interest in warring among themselves over territory and borders.  They had advanced sufficiently economically to where war was no longer in their national interest, and their people had no interest in fighting. 
...

It took them nearly a thousand years, but Brits, French, Germans, and Italians mostly curse each other over beer and wine.

Ukraine is a sovereign country, recognized (along with other former Soviet "republics") as such by Russia in 1991. It is in the US' clear interest that Putin or the other monsters who might replace him not conquer Ukraine's natural resources, agriculture, and industry. Isolationism would simply lead back to the Cold War.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline PeteS in CA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,359
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #982 on: July 13, 2023, 06:22:59 pm »
For good or for ill, conquering and reconquering is what Europeans do ---- to each other and anywhere else they can.  For Europeans, borders are a temporary nuisance and changing them is their favorite parlor game.

Keep them away from us and let them play with each other until they finally exhaust themselves.

BTW, remember this slogan of national pride from World History classes: "The sun never sets on the British flag"?

So rather than acknowledge that Russia has never been isolationist, which is the claim to which my post responded, you try to :goalpost: .
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline kevindavis007

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,452
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #983 on: July 13, 2023, 07:11:24 pm »
So Peter the Great didn't capture what became St. Petersburg from Sweden and its design was not inspired by Venice and Paris (with architects to match)?

So Catherine the Great didn't complete the conquest of Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula?

So Catherine didn't import German farmers to bring modern agriculture practices to Russia and the Ukraine, people who came to be called "Volga Germans"?

So Russian Czars didn't bite off parts of Poland until Poland was no more?

So Russian Czars didn't fight wars to add Central Asian regions to their empire?

So the Crimean War wasn't caused by Russia trying to bite off parts from the Ottoman Empire?

So Lenin didn't try to reconquer Poland?

So Stalin didn't try to conquer Finland?

So Stalin didn't conquer and retain the Baltic nations in and after WW2?

If that's "isolationism" ...


They also once had Alaska..
Join The Reagan Caucus: https://reagancaucus.org/ and the Eisenhower Caucus: https://EisenhowerCaucus.org

Online Maj. Bill Martin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Gender: Male
  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #984 on: July 13, 2023, 07:54:01 pm »
It took them nearly a thousand years, but Brits, French, Germans, and Italians mostly curse each other over beer and wine.

Ukraine is a sovereign country, recognized (along with other former Soviet "republics") as such by Russia in 1991. It is in the US' clear interest that Putin or the other monsters who might replace him not conquer Ukraine's natural resources, agriculture, and industry. Isolationism would simply lead back to the Cold War.
:thumbsup:

Offline Ghost Bear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,421
  • Gender: Male
  • Not an actual picture of me
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #985 on: July 13, 2023, 09:19:31 pm »
Didn't a US SecState negotiate the purchase of part of North America from Russia?

Also, a guy named John (Johann) Sutter purchased a northern California colony named Fort Ross from Russia.

The purchase from Russia of what became Alaska was negotiated by then SoS William Seward in 1867 (link to Wiki article). For a good long time after the purchase it was known as "Seward's Folly".
Let it burn.

Offline Timber Rattler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,732
  • Conservative Purist and Patriot
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #986 on: July 13, 2023, 10:45:11 pm »
aka "nasty degenerate SOB," "worst of the worst at Free Republic," "Garbage Troll," "Neocon Warmonger," "Filthy Piece of Trash," "damn $#%$#@!," "Silly f'er," "POS," "war pig," "neocon scumbag," "insignificant little ankle nipper," "@ss-clown," "neocuck," "termite," "Uniparty Deep stater," "Never Trump sack of dog feces," "avid Bidenista," "filthy Ukrainian," "war whore," "fricking chump," psychopathic POS, and depraved SOB.

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."  ---George Orwell

"If you want peace, prepare for war." ---Flavius Vegetius Renatus

Offline ScottinVA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,510
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #987 on: July 13, 2023, 11:36:59 pm »
LOL! Your history is severely lacking @sneakypete Czarist Russia was one of the chief trading partners of the U. S. until the end of the 19th century.

Trading status is completely unrelated to expansionist tendencies.  While we had that trade relationship with the Tsar, the Russians attempted to expand their Asia influence, resulting in Japan kicking their ass in the Russo-Japanese War.  Additionally, the US was still trading with the Soviets when they quashed Prague Spring in 1968 and when they attempted to annex Afghanistan through the 1980s.  The point is, trading relationships often survive bad behavior of one or both parties.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2023, 11:51:21 pm by ScottinVA »

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #988 on: July 14, 2023, 12:05:04 am »
I have written extensively about this in the past @sneakypete but will provide a brief review here just for you.

Julius Hammer held membership card number 000001 in the United States Communist Party. His son (Armond Hammer) was given very early entry into the Soviet Union in order to open a pencil factory. This became a conduit for much Soviet aid to flow from the U. S. to the Soviet Union and was helped along by ta N. Y. Times writer by the name of Walter Durante who toured the Soviet Potemkin villages and wrote glowing reports of them as if they were representative of the entire country which they decidedly were not.


@Bigun

Thank you!

I was very aware of Armand Hammer and his communist ties,as well as the pencil factory "investment".

I don't remember hearing about Julius Hammer,though.

Just out of curiousity,do you have any idea what year Julius was issued card number 1?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #989 on: July 14, 2023, 12:09:22 am »
So Peter the Great didn't capture what became St. Petersburg from Sweden and its design was not inspired by Venice and Paris (with architects to match)?

So Catherine the Great didn't complete the conquest of Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula?

So Catherine didn't import German farmers to bring modern agriculture practices to Russia and the Ukraine, people who came to be called "Volga Germans"?

So Russian Czars didn't bite off parts of Poland until Poland was no more?

So Russian Czars didn't fight wars to add Central Asian regions to their empire?

So the Crimean War wasn't caused by Russia trying to bite off parts from the Ottoman Empire?

So Lenin didn't try to reconquer Poland?

So Stalin didn't try to conquer Finland?

So Stalin didn't conquer and retain the Baltic nations in and after WW2?

If that's "isolationism" ...

@PeteS in CA

Yeah,it IS isolationism because everything was flowing one-way,towards making Holy  Mother Russia a super power.

Yes,Russia DID sell some resources to finance building up infastructure as well as St.Petersburg and Moscow,but trade was tightly controlled,and had been since the Vikings took over control of trade and showed them how to do it,with many of the Vikings marrying Russian women  and  remaining in Russia.

BTW,Russia is even trying to conquer Ukraine today. Do you seriously  think Russia is doing that to benefit Ukraine?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 12:10:55 am by sneakypete »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #990 on: July 14, 2023, 12:14:20 am »
Didn't a US SecState negotiate the purchase of part of North America from Russia?

Also, a guy named John (Johann) Sutter purchased a northern California colony named Fort Ross from Russia.

@PeteS in CA

Both true.

How does selling real estate they can not control in any way because they lacked the manpower and the military might to defend them prove your point?

Actually,they made out like bandits because they didn't have the means to defend those properties.

Or the Royals and their associates made out like bandits,anyhow.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #991 on: July 14, 2023, 12:22:07 am »
Russia was definitely expansionist for most of its history, so "isolationist" really doesn't apply.  But, there has always been this weird tension inside Russia between Peter the Great's desire to become more European, and countervailing pressures to remain more uniquely "Russian", which may be what @sneakypete means when he talks about isolationism. I think those two different schools of thoughts still exist in Russia today.

That's probably part of why Churchill famously described Russia as "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.". Because a lot of times, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

@Maj. Bill Martin

I think you are right.

The Russian Royalty really wanted a nation of serfs,but Russia is so huge they had no real way to enforce it by force. Enter the Secret Police (can't remember what the Russians called them at the moment). This worked so well that "Russian Orthodox Priest" was a KGB career field. Those of us in the west were led to believe the communists shut down all the churches in Russia,but they didn't. They did shut down a few,but kept the big ones open because the priests would pass on any "anti-Czar" (later "anti-Soviet) thoughts to the secret police.

And truth to tell,there really was damn little practical difference between Communism and "Czarism" other than who was at the top of the slave pile.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #992 on: July 14, 2023, 12:25:25 am »
Fort Ross is now a state park and being rebuilt to extant records from the early and mid 1800s. SR1 from Jenner to Fort Bragg is a gorgeous drive.

@PeteS in CA

Thank you,I did not know that. I have no doubt at all of the natural beauty still on display on display in some parts of the left coast. I have seen the Presidio of Monterey back in the 70's,and it would take your breath away. I suppose that area is a trash pile of tents and trash these days,too.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #993 on: July 14, 2023, 12:27:27 am »
"Kaliningrad" was originally the Prussian (= German) city of Königsberg, which Stalin bit off from what became Poland after WW2 (the whole nation of Poland shifted west after WW2, with Stalin keeping the part of Poland that Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact gave the USSR). More Russian "isolationism".

@PeteS in CA

That IS "isolationism". The Soviets damn sure didn't share it with anyone,and enslaved the residents after they took over.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Online Maj. Bill Martin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,980
  • Gender: Male
  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #994 on: July 14, 2023, 01:15:58 am »
@PeteS in CA

That IS "isolationism". The Soviets damn sure didn't share it with anyone,and enslaved the residents after they took over.

Are you sure you don't mean "totalitarianism?"

Online Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,748
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #995 on: July 14, 2023, 02:56:05 am »
@Bigun

Thank you!

I was very aware of Armand Hammer and his communist ties,as well as the pencil factory "investment".

I don't remember hearing about Julius Hammer,though.

Just out of curiousity,do you have any idea what year Julius was issued card number 1?

At one time I could have told you all about Julius Hammer, but much has left the memory bank now. Sorry! @sneakypete
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 03:23:36 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Hoodat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,977
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #996 on: July 14, 2023, 03:14:38 am »
Adapt and overcome...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJnlriVcddw

That's a step up from using dogs like the Russians did in WWII.  They would train dogs by putting food under tanks.  Once the dogs picked up the habit, they would starve the dogs for a couple of days.  Then they would tie explosives to the dogs and set them loose near German armored units.  The dogs would see the tanks and immediately run towards them.  Kaboom!  The Germans hated dogs because of this and would shoot any dog on sight.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,963
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #997 on: July 14, 2023, 03:55:15 am »
Are you sure you don't mean "totalitarianism?"

@Maj. Bill Martin

I think both  words apply in this case.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Kamaji

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 58,100
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #998 on: July 14, 2023, 01:01:54 pm »
Putin's purge: Russian strongman arrested 'at least a dozen' high ranking military officers after Wagner mutiny to 'clean the ranks' of traitors

General Sergei Surovikin, head of aerospace forces, is among those detained
Maj Gen Ivan Popov claimed he had been relieved of duty for being a 'threat'

By MATTHEW LODGE
13 July 2023

Russia has detained multiple high ranking military officers as the Kremlin looks to purge the military of those it suspects of disloyalty following the Wagner uprising.

Well placed sources claim that at least 13 senior officers have since been detained, with some later released , with others suspended or fired from their roles as Vladimir Putin's inquisition looks for betrayal in the ranks.

Among those believed to have been taken into questioning are General Sergei Surovikin, the head of Russia's aerospace forces who is known as 'General Armageddon' for his bloody bombing campaigns in Syria, the Wall Street Journal reports.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12297389/Russia-detains-dozen-high-ranking-military-officers-days-Wagner-uprising.html


Good.  The more Russia cannibalizes its own forces, the better.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,211
Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #999 on: July 14, 2023, 02:18:24 pm »
Frankly high ranking officers and Putin all need arrest for using troops as cannon fodder.