Ukraine 4

[Timber Rattler]

Heh...

https://twitter.com/i/status/1679124176739737602

[ScottinVA]

@ScottinVA

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Russia has pretty much always been an isolationist state. Even the Czars didn't want any outside influences other than foreign royalty that was related to them.

Truth to tell,Russia has pretty much been a police state for her entire existence.

Invading other countries, kidnapping their children and directing artillery at population centers is NOT an isolationist stance, Pete.  C’mon… you’re better than that.. stop defending the indefensible.

[sneakypete]

Invading other countries, kidnapping their children and directing artillery at population centers is NOT an isolationist stance,

@ScottinVA

That is EXACTLY what it is.


Pete.  C’mon… you’re better than that.. stop defending the indefensible.

I am defending Russia?

Seriously?
 

[Bigun]

@ScottinVA

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Russia has pretty much always been an isolationist state. Even the Czars didn't want any outside influences other than foreign royalty that was related to them.

Truth to tell,Russia has pretty much been a police state for her entire existence.

LOL! Your history is severely lacking @sneakypete Czarist Russia was one of the chief trading partners of the U. S. until the end of the 19th century.

[kevindavis007]

LOL! Your history is severely lacking @sneakypete Czarist Russia was one of the chief trading partners of the U. S. until the end of the 19th century.

Times change and Russia is our enemy

[Kamaji]

Russian soldiers in Ukraine have been failed by top brass: general

By Olivia Land
July 13, 2023

A Russian general claims he was fired after giving military leadership an honest picture of the dire situation in Ukraine –and alleges that soldiers on the ground have been failed by the top brass.

“It was necessary either to keep quiet and be a coward or to say it the way it is,” Major General Ivan Popov says in a voice recording published by Russian politician Andrew Gurulyov.

Popov, 48, claims in the message that he was axed from his position as the head of the 58th Combined Arms Army in retaliation for raising questions about high casualty rates and a lack of artillery support, the BBC reported.

“I had no right to lie in the name of you, in the name of my fallen comrades in arms, so I outlined all the problems which exist,” he continued.

“The Ukrainian army could not break through our ranks at the front but our senior chief hit us from the rear, viciously beheading the army at the most difficult and intense moment.”

*  *  *

Source:  https://nypost.com/2023/07/13/russian-military-heads-betrayed-soldiers-in-ukraine-general/

[sneakypete]

LOL! Your history is severely lacking @sneakypete Czarist Russia was one of the chief trading partners of the U. S. until the end of the 19th century.

@Bigun

So what? She still kept a tight reign on who she allowed in Russia,how long they were allowed to stay,and who they got to communicate with.

Granted,the Czars were a little more open-minded than the Communists that followed them because so many of them had marriages and other relationships with European Royalty,but they were STILL "Maximum Rulers" for their time.

[Bigun]

Times change and Russia is our enemy

The Soviet Union was publicly our enemy. (The U. S. Government allegedly supported the Czarist White Army in the revolution but made damned sure that the support was FAR too little and too late to prevent the Red Army from winning.)

After the Soviet Union came into being, our public position was to oppose them but privately we did everything possible to prop them up. Had that NOT been done, the Soviet Union would have ceased to exist within ten years of its formation.

[sneakypete]

Major General Ivan Popov

Is "Popov" a common name in Russia?

Seems to me that I have a vague recollection of one or two other  high-ranking Russians named "Popov".

[libertybele]

Times change and Russia is our enemy

Yes and our own government and all the ILLEGALS coming in.

[Bigun]

@Bigun

So what? She still kept a tight reign on who she allowed in Russia,how long they were allowed to stay,and who they got to communicate with.

Granted,the Czars were a little more open-minded than the Communists that followed them because so many of them had marriages and other relationships with European Royalty,but they were STILL "Maximum Rulers" for their time.

@sneakypete you said:

Russia has pretty much always been an isolationist state. Even the Czars didn't want any outside influences other than foreign royalty that was related to them.

That is flat out wrong IMO. The Czars were very friendly with the United States and most European countries until the likes of Lenin appeared on the scene.

[sneakypete]

Times change and Russia is our enemy

@kevindavis007

Our most dangerous enemies are members of the DNC,and their RINO partners in crime.

[Bigun]

@kevindavis007

Our most dangerous enemies are members of the DNC,and their RINO partners in crime.

And the United States Department of State! That has been the case since at least the 1920s.

[sneakypete]

The Soviet Union was publicly our enemy. (The U. S. Government allegedly supported the Czarist White Army in the revolution but made damned sure that the support was FAR too little and too late to prevent the Red Army from winning.)

After the Soviet Union came into being, our public position was to oppose them but privately we did everything possible to prop them up. Had that NOT been done, the Soviet Union would have ceased to exist within ten years of its formation.

@Bigun

I have never heard that before. Could you please expand on what you wrote?

Obviously,if true,that would mean there was a "reason" for us doing that,and this "reason" is almost always  based on cash money changing hands thanks to corrupt US politicians.

PLEASE note that I am not attacking you. I just want to hear  more.

[Kamaji]

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete you said:

That is flat out wrong IMO. The Czars were very friendly with the United States and most European countries until the likes of Lenin appeared on the scene.

@Bigun

"Friendly" in a "trade sense" because like everybody else including the communists of today,they loved access to lots of money.

There were damn few westerners visiting Russia that weren't there to make  trade deals.

It wasn't a big  vacation destination for foreign vacationers,although I freely admit I couldn't wait  to  go there myself once they "opened the doors" to tourism. Hell,I went twice,and would have gone more if I hadn't started getting sick.

But unlike most people,I am a history freak,so how could I NOT go there once it became possible?

And the truth is it is a very nice place to visit in warm weather,but I wouldn't go there on a free trip in the winter.

I will also admit that on two different trips to Moscow,I only ran into  ONE Russian that was hostile once he heard me speaking English,and that was on the subway,and he was a WW-2 vet still wearing his ribbons on his suit jacket. He was scolded by the other passengers on the subway for being rude. Or at least that is what I ASSUMED they were doing from the tone their voices because I don't speak or understand Russian.

Fascinating place to visit if you are a history freak.

[Bigun]

@Bigun

I have never heard that before. Could you please expand on what you wrote?

Obviously,if true,that would mean there was a "reason" for us doing that,and this "reason" is almost always  based on cash money changing hands thanks to corrupt US politicians.

PLEASE note that I am not attacking you. I just want to hear  more.

I have written extensively about this in the past @sneakypete but will provide a brief review here just for you.

Julius Hammer held membership card number 000001 in the United States Communist Party. His son (Armond Hammer) was given very early entry into the Soviet Union in order to open a pencil factory. This became a conduit for much Soviet aid to flow from the U. S. to the Soviet Union and was helped along by ta N. Y. Times writer by the name of Walter Durante who toured the Soviet Potemkin villages and wrote glowing reports of them as if they were representative of the entire country which they decidedly were not.

[PeteS in CA]

Russia has pretty much always been an isolationist state. Even the Czars didn't want any outside influences other than foreign royalty that was related to them.

So Peter the Great didn't capture what became St. Petersburg from Sweden and its design was not inspired by Venice and Paris (with architects to match)?

So Catherine the Great didn't complete the conquest of Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula?

So Catherine didn't import German farmers to bring modern agriculture practices to Russia and the Ukraine, people who came to be called "Volga Germans"?

So Russian Czars didn't bite off parts of Poland until Poland was no more?

So Russian Czars didn't fight wars to add Central Asian regions to their empire?

So the Crimean War wasn't caused by Russia trying to bite off parts from the Ottoman Empire?

So Lenin didn't try to reconquer Poland?

So Stalin didn't try to conquer Finland?

So Stalin didn't conquer and retain the Baltic nations in and after WW2?

If that's "isolationism" ...

[PeteS in CA]

LOL! Your history is severely lacking @sneakypete Czarist Russia was one of the chief trading partners of the U. S. until the end of the 19th century.

Didn't a US SecState negotiate the purchase of part of North America from Russia?

Also, a guy named John (Johann) Sutter purchased a northern California colony named Fort Ross from Russia.

[Bigun]

Didn't a US SecState negotiate the purchase of part of North America from Russia?

Also, a guy named John (Johann) Sutter purchased a northern California colony named Fort Ross from Russia.

In both cases the answer is YES @PeteS in CA

[DefiantMassRINO]

Russia has not always been an isolationist state.

It's greatest imperial need has always been warm water ports, which it has traditionally sought along the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea for year round trade and naval bases.

During the Cold War, there was the fear that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan would be a stepping stone towards acquiring a warm water port on the Indian Ocean, possibly by invading Pakistan.

[Bigun]

https://www.amazon.com/Dossier-Secret-History-Armand-Hammer/dp/0679448020/ref=sr_1_1?crid=254OAGE1EJYBA&keywords=Armand+Hammer&qid=1689260350&sprefix=armand+hammer%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-1

[Maj. Bill Martin]

So Peter the Great didn't capture what became St. Petersburg from Sweden and its design was not inspired by Venice and Paris (with architects to match)?

So Catherine the Great didn't complete the conquest of Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula?

So Catherine didn't import German farmers to bring modern agriculture practices to Russia and the Ukraine, people who came to be called "Volga Germans"?

So Russian Czars didn't bite off parts of Poland until Poland was no more?

So Russian Czars didn't fight wars to add Central Asian regions to their empire?

So the Crimean War wasn't caused by Russia trying to bite off parts from the Ottoman Empire?

So Lenin didn't try to reconquer Poland?

So Stalin didn't try to conquer Finland?

So Stalin didn't conquer and retain the Baltic nations in and after WW2?

If that's "isolationism" ...

Russia was definitely expansionist for most of its history, so "isolationist" really doesn't apply.  But, there has always been this weird tension inside Russia between Peter the Great's desire to become more European, and countervailing pressures to remain more uniquely "Russian", which may be what @sneakypete means when he talks about isolationism.  I think those two different schools of thoughts still exist in Russia today.

That's probably part of why Churchill famously described Russia as "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.". Because a lot of times, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense.

[PeteS in CA]

In both cases the answer is YES @PeteS in CA

Fort Ross is now a state park and being rebuilt to extant records from the early and mid 1800s. SR1 from Jenner to Fort Bragg is a gorgeous drive.

[Kamaji]

Russia was definitely expansionist for most of its history, so "isolationist" really doesn't apply.  But, there has always been this weird tension inside Russia between Peter the Great's desire to become more European, and countervailing pressures to remain more uniquely "Russian", which may be what @sneakypete means when he talks about isolationism.  I think those two different schools of thoughts still exist in Russia today.

That's probably part of why Churchill famously described Russia as "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.". Because a lot of times, it doesn't make a damn bit of sense.