Ukraine 4

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Exclusive: U.S. could train Ukrainian pilots to fly F-16s in 4 months

https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-us-could-train-ukrainian-pilots-to-fly-f-16s-in-4-months-184136820.html

See actual USAF report at link.

EXCERPT.

@Timber Rattler

I saw you post this over at TOS, and the responses remind me of why I no longer post there at all.

The story seems very credible to me.
 Ukrainian pilots have been flying under war conditions for over a year. That not only means they have likely become very proficient, but that they also have determined who their very best pilots are.   And those are likely the guys they sent to be evaluated for how quickly they could learn how to fly F-16s.  So when people at TOS ridicule the article for claiming those pilots could be trained that quickly, they are ignoring that these are probably the cream of the crop of a group of pilots with a lot of combat experience.

Also, your country being involved in a war of survival may give those pilots a little extra incentive and focus to become proficient in a shorter period of time.

The other thing that was ridiculous over there was how people were complaining that providing F-16 could start World War III, or might be a security breach because Ukrainian pilots might defect and fly their planes to Russia.

The problem with that is that the F-16 has been exported for many decades, and is already in service with 25 different countries, including Pakistan, Indonesia, and freaking Venezuela.

Pro-Russian hacks over there.

[Kamaji]

@Timber Rattler

I saw you post this over at TOS, and the responses remind me of why I no longer post there at all.

The story seems very credible to me.
 Ukrainian pilots have been flying under war conditions for over a year. That not only means they have likely become very proficient, but that they also have determined who their very best pilots are.   And those are likely the guys they sent to be evaluated for how quickly they could learn how to fly F-16s.  So when people at TOS ridicule the article for claiming those pilots could be trained that quickly, they are ignoring that these are probably the cream of the crop of a group of pilots with a lot of combat experience.

Also, your country being involved in a war of survival may give those pilots a little extra incentive and focus to become proficient in a shorter period of time.

The other thing that was ridiculous over there was how people were complaining that providing F-16 could start World War III, or might be a security breach because Ukrainian pilots might defect and fly their planes to Russia.

The problem with that is that the F-16 has been exported for many decades, and is already in service with 25 different countries, including Pakistan, Indonesia, and freaking Venezuela.

Pro-Russian hacks over there.

[Timber Rattler]

@Timber Rattler

I saw you post this over at TOS, and the responses remind me of why I no longer post there at all.

(snip)

Pro-Russian hacks over there.

Yeah, I just post the daily war news there to tick them off, and as a reminder that they have utterly failed to ban and silence me.  It's entertaining watching them thrash around and act like complete fools.  They're complete nuts and their blog and vblog "alternative" sources are garbage. 

I save my more serious  comments and discussion points for here, which is my actual home, as far as these boards go.

[Cyber Liberty]

I save my more serious  comments and discussion points for here, which is my actual home, as far as these boards go.

And we appreciate that quite a bit.  I don't always agree with you, but the posts make me think about things in a new way.

 

[Kamaji]

Ukraine could receive 'game changing' F-16s as White House 'tells European allies it will not block export of fighter jets'

The F-16 jets are at the top of Ukraine's wish list of weapons to fight Russia
Kyiv is preparing to launch a counteroffensive against Putin's invading forces

By CHRIS JEWERS
19 May 2023

The Biden administration has told its European allies it is ready to allow them to send 'game changing' fighter jets to Ukraine to use against Vladimir Putin's forces, according to reports.

The White House is coming under increasing pressure to help Ukraine procure the US-made F-16, which are in the arsenals of a number of European countries.

However, any country would require the United States to sign off the transfer of F-16s to Ukraine on account sensitive US technology being on-board the jets.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12103037/Biden-allow-European-allies-Ukraine-game-changing-F-16-fighter-jets.html

[DefiantMassRINO]

A-10 Warthogs would be better suited as tank killing close tactical support aircraft.  They were designed to destroy Soviet tanks on the eastern steppes of Europe.

[Smokin Joe]

@Timber Rattler

I saw you post this over at TOS, and the responses remind me of why I no longer post there at all.

The story seems very credible to me.
 Ukrainian pilots have been flying under war conditions for over a year. That not only means they have likely become very proficient, but that they also have determined who their very best pilots are.   And those are likely the guys they sent to be evaluated for how quickly they could learn how to fly F-16s.  So when people at TOS ridicule the article for claiming those pilots could be trained that quickly, they are ignoring that these are probably the cream of the crop of a group of pilots with a lot of combat experience.

Also, your country being involved in a war of survival may give those pilots a little extra incentive and focus to become proficient in a shorter period of time.

The other thing that was ridiculous over there was how people were complaining that providing F-16 could start World War III, or might be a security breach because Ukrainian pilots might defect and fly their planes to Russia.

The problem with that is that the F-16 has been exported for many decades, and is already in service with 25 different countries, including Pakistan, Indonesia, and freaking Venezuela.

Pro-Russian hacks over there.

It also ignores the fact that our own pilots transition fro one air craft to another type relatively quickly, without the language barrier and with a general familiarity with American cockpit layouts. It isn't that these aren't competent pilots, nor that they have experience flying advanced jet fighters in combat, it's just a different layout and language. The fundamentals remain the same, so the idea that some of their best could fly F-16s in short order doesn't seem far-fetched at all.

[PeteS in CA]

A-10 Warthogs would be better suited as tank killing close tactical support aircraft.  They were designed to destroy Soviet tanks on the eastern steppes of Europe.

I respect the A-10 (I probably tested and aligned several hundred A-10 Projection Units (=HUDs)), but the problem is that the USAF inventory has been gradually pared down to a fairly minimal number. OTOH, what Ukraine does have is SU-25s, the Soviets’ approximate equivalent of the A-10. If the US or EuroLanders could find a way to improve the capabilities of the SU-25 (maybe a former Soviet empire dependent has upgraded their SU-25s?).

[Maj. Bill Martin]

A-10 Warthogs would be better suited as tank killing close tactical support aircraft.  They were designed to destroy Soviet tanks on the eastern steppes of Europe.

I'd be really reluctant to fly those around if I didn't know that I had air superiority.  They're armored from most ground fire, but still slow as hell and with all the missiles around...I'd be a bit nervous.

[kevindavis007]

@Timber Rattler

I saw you post this over at TOS, and the responses remind me of why I no longer post there at all.

The story seems very credible to me.
 Ukrainian pilots have been flying under war conditions for over a year. That not only means they have likely become very proficient, but that they also have determined who their very best pilots are.   And those are likely the guys they sent to be evaluated for how quickly they could learn how to fly F-16s.  So when people at TOS ridicule the article for claiming those pilots could be trained that quickly, they are ignoring that these are probably the cream of the crop of a group of pilots with a lot of combat experience.

Also, your country being involved in a war of survival may give those pilots a little extra incentive and focus to become proficient in a shorter period of time.

The other thing that was ridiculous over there was how people were complaining that providing F-16 could start World War III, or might be a security breach because Ukrainian pilots might defect and fly their planes to Russia.

The problem with that is that the F-16 has been exported for many decades, and is already in service with 25 different countries, including Pakistan, Indonesia, and freaking Venezuela.

Pro-Russian hacks over there.

I usually check the TOS on the Ukraine / Russian / Putin threads...


They think that Putin is going to save Western civilization by stopping the Global-Homo Movement (their term not mine) or as the savior of Christianity in Europe (never mind that he is attacking a Christian country and using Muslims to attack Ukraine).


It makes me wonder which side they will be on if we ever go to war with Russia (I hope not).

[Hoodat]

I respect the A-10 (I probably tested and aligned several hundred A-10 Projection Units (=HUDs)), but the problem is that the USAF inventory has been gradually pared down to a fairly minimal number.

And therein lies the problem.  The USAF inventory should have been zero from Day One.  These should have been part of the Army and Marines inventories.

[Hoodat]

Ukraine could receive 'game changing' F-16s as White House 'tells European allies it will not block export of fighter jets'

So basically, the Biden Administration has been blocking the transfer fighter jets to Ukraine for over a year now.  At a time where people complain that Europe should do more to defend Europe, the US regime commander has directly interfered by blocking that process.

As to the complaint, Eastern Europe has taken a very active role at ramping up defense spending and supporting Ukraine, more so than even the US.

[sneakypete]

And therein lies the problem.  The USAF inventory should have been zero from Day One.  These should have been part of the Army and Marines inventories.

@Hoodat

Hoo u,sum kinda trublemakir??????

We all nos de only  peepulls spossta be flyin dem things bees USAF gentilmens!

[Timber Rattler]

They think that Putin is going to save Western civilization by stopping the Global-Homo Movement (their term not mine) or as the savior of Christianity in Europe (never mind that he is attacking a Christian country and using Muslims to attack Ukraine).

There are several different kinds of pro-Kremlin/anti-Ukraine posters over at TOS:

1) The obvious Russians and Russian-backed trolls like Kazan, NorseViking, Norsky, ganeemead, kiryandil, and cranked (before he got banned or self-deleted) (i.e."Russia wins everyday against the globo-homos!!!!!"---these guys tend to be obsessed with homosexual memes and innuendoes in their posts)

2) Neo-isolationists who have grown weary of GWOT/Iraq/Iran, and forgotten about the lessons learned with appeasement and World War II. (NOT OUR WAR!)

3) Mis-guided Conservatives who resent sending billions in economic and military aid to Ukraine when our own country is nearly bankrupt, which is a principled position I will admit BUT ignores the even greater costs of allowing Putin (and then Xi) to win in terms of future American blood and treasure.

4) Ron Paul Libertarians (BobL, Jon Preston, ransomnote , and their ilk), who are pacifists, isolationists, and want to burn the entire American government and political system to the ground no matter the cost.  Bob is bad but Jon has become the worst of the lot with his daily gaslighting and open cheerleading for Russian atrocities.  He told me that he would be happy to see the U.S. defeated militarily, and Republicans defeated in future elections, even if Biden wins, just to purge the party of people he considers RINOS.

5) Well Meaning but not-too-bright Conservatives who know nothing about Russian and Eastern European history, and generally believe that Putin can be a good-faith negotiator to achieve peace. (caww, Sacajawea, etc.)

6)  Ex-military and federal burn-out cases who just want to pull up the draw bridges and let the world burn. (Allegra, Travis McGee, Mariner, McGruff, etc.)

7) Hit and run posters, who tend to appear just after FReepathon quarters end...many of which are old dormant accounts that suddenly spring back to life to vandalize the Russia-Ukraine War threads, or are else alternate accounts owned by some of the people up above.  For instance, I suspect that Travis is also Rocco DiPippo, who recently appeared out of no where but yet posts the same kind of silly, offensive memes that Travis does.

8) Hard-core Trump supporters who absolutely hate Biden and Ukraine (for the Clintons, Hunter Biden, and Burisma) and believe that Putin is waging a holy war of vengeance on behalf of his BFF Donald J. Trump.  They argue that Ukraine is getting exactly what it deserves because of its corruption and what happened in 2016 and 2020.

Have I missed anybody?

It makes me wonder which side they will be on if we ever go to war with Russia (I hope not).

I have no doubt that many of those people would either become collaborators or snitches, just like in Red Dawn, if it would save their own skins, or else achieve some sort of "peace," even under Russian slavery.  They would be more than happy to live on their knees rather than die fighting for their liberty.

[DB]

https://twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/1658436706163388418

You have to have economic power to have actual military power that is capable of fighting a war and winning. Russia is consuming itself. Their entire GDP is about 5% of the west's. The only way for Russia to win is for the west to surrender.

[kevindavis007]

or maybe going to Moscow:

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1659966239022653440

[Hoodat]

Freedom Russia Legion

from r/UkraineWarVideoReport

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/13m1wfm/freedom_russia_legion_conveys_its_gratitude/

[mystery-ak]

Russian official warns Western countries face ‘enormous risks’ if they supply Ukraine with F-16s
by Jared Gans - 05/20/23 10:56 AM ET

A top Russian official warned Western countries of “enormous risks” if they supply Ukraine with F-16 fighter aircrafts.

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko told the state-run Russian news agency TASS that Ukraine’s Western allies are continuing to escalate the conflict, and the Kremlin will take their plan to send the F-16s into account.

“We can see that Western countries continue to stick to an escalation scenario, which carries enormous risks for them. In any case, we will take it into account when making plans. We have all the necessary means to achieve our goals,” Grushko said.

A senior administration official told The Hill that President Biden informed other world leaders at the Group of Seven (G7) summit on Friday that the United States will support a joint effort to train Ukrainian pilots to use F-16s.

The official said the U.S. hopes the training can start in the coming week and it will take months to complete. They said the countries involved will decide when to provide Ukraine with the jets, how many to provide and who will provide them.

They added that the training will take place outside Ukraine at sites in Europe.

more
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4013449-russian-official-warns-western-countries-face-enormous-risks-if-they-supply-ukraine-with-f-16s/

[mountaineer]

Prigozhin’s video announcement celebrating the Russian victory in Bakhmut. Fully translated into English

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1659992340164153346

https://twitter.com/Justthinkabou/status/1659930208483278849

[Timber Rattler]

So what did they win after 10 months and tens of thousands of lives lost?  A worthless pie of rubble that used to be the 56th largest city in Ukraine that has only marginal strategic value for the Russians.  Where do they go from there?

[Smokin Joe]

@Hoodat

Hoo u,sum kinda trublemakir??????

We all nos de only  peepulls spossta be flyin dem things bees USAF gentilmens!

Right. If it has jet engines, fixed wings, and doesn't land on a ship...

[sneakypete]

You have to have economic power to have actual military power that is capable of fighting a war and winning. Russia is consuming itself. Their entire GDP is about 5% of the west's. The only way for Russia to win is for the west to surrender.

@DB

I agree.

Too many people are confusing "desperation spending" with reasoned spending. At this point the Neo-Soviets have no choice but to either bankrupt their country by spending all the money they have trying to fight and win a war they can NOT win using conventional forces,or admitting they screwed the pooch with this insane invasion of a sovereign nation,and HAVE to retreat because they are going bankrupt and can no  longer continue to fight a war.

I think we ALL understand that the last option will without doubt lead to a change in leadership that just MIGHT end up with Putin being  executed by his own people in an effort to prevent a revolution from starting that ends communism in Russia with an entire new leadership,so I am GUESSING the commies in power are going to keep the fighting going right down to the last man and woman in uniform that isn't one of them,and will then flee to China after stealing all the cash they can steal from the Kremlin banks.

Truth to tell,there seems to be a strong chance of "Mighty World Power Russia" becoming a welfare state that needs food and other supplies from western nations to prevent mass starvations and deaths from freezing in the winter due to depleted oil supplies.

I honestly don't see any way for the Neo-Soviets to win as long as the west keeps providing them with  food,clothing,medical supplies,weapons,and ammunition. After all,THEY are fighting to retain their nations,and the typical Russian soldier is fighting because someone is sticking a bayonet in his back and forcing him to fight.

Those "someones" are going to be in a HEAP  of trouble once the Neo-Soviets collapse to the point where they can no longer supply the troops.

Providing,of course,that Arab nations don't provide them with  cash in exchange for their oil fields,and even that  is incredibly "iffy" due to the fact the current Neo-Soviet leadership probably won't be in power much longer and in a position to cut any  deals with anybody.

To gain a proper perspective on the condition of Russia today and her current military abilities,compare it to the Russia of just 10 years ago.

I honestly can't think of ANY way that the Communist dictators in Russia OR Communism can survive this "hit".

My ONLY concern is those bastard Chinese moving in to take over. They make the Russians look like "sissy-boys" by comparison. The leadership cares absolutely nothing about anyone but themselves and their families,and chances are they would consider losing 50 million soldiers as a bonus because they would no longer have to feed and house them.

[sneakypete]

Right. If it has jet engines, fixed wings, and doesn't land on a ship...

@Smokin Joe

I seem to recall the US Army and the USAF getting into a big squabble about the Army having cargo planes like the Chinook,and wanting more. IF I remember correctly,the USAF agreed to give up helicopters (after all there are no jet helicopters) if the US Army would agree to give up cargo planes.

Which,of course,allowed the US Army to SERIOUSLY build up their chopper force and develope "airmobile" divisions.

The USAF screwed themselves on that one,and didn't even care because as far as THEY were concerned,if it wasn't jet powered and flying at supersonic speeds,they had no interest in it.

Then again,that was just what the rumor mills had going back then. For all I know,what the USAF was REALLY scared of was being absorbed by the army as an army unit. They HAD to keep the big transports and the zoomies in their stable,or lose their reason to exist.

[Smokin Joe]

@sneakypete While the Saudis or other Middle Easterners might make an offer for the Oilfields in SW Russia, but Russia has a lot more in that department to offer, so it would not strip Russia of its oil production capability, nor would that be desirable because the purchaser would inevitably have to defend those interests, militarily, sooner or later.



I can see the Chinese making a play for Eastern Russia, and even pushing in from the south  to seize resources North of Mongolia. To me, that is a greater worry, frankly. That would provide them with considerable mineral assets right in their own back yard (harder to interdict in time of war than resources abroad).

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe

I seem to recall the US Army and the USAF getting into a big squabble about the Army having cargo planes like the Chinook,and wanting more. IF I remember correctly,the USAF agreed to give up helicopters (after all there are no jet helicopters) if the US Army would agree to give up cargo planes.

Which,of course,allowed the US Army to SERIOUSLY build up their chopper force and develope "airmobile" divisions.

The USAF screwed themselves on that one,and didn't even care because as far as THEY were concerned,if it wasn't jet powered and flying at supersonic speeds,they had no interest in it.

Then again,that was just what the rumor mills had going back then. For all I know,what the USAF was REALLY scared of was being absorbed by the army as an army unit. They HAD to keep the big transports and the zoomies in their stable,or lose their reason to exist.

I guees they haven't forgotten their roots: US Army Air Force.