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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #100 on: May 20, 2023, 09:18:31 pm »

Quote from: Smokin Joe on May 20, 2023, 08:00:46 pm
Right. If it has jet engines, fixed wings, and doesn't land on a ship...

@Smokin Joe

Can you even BEGIN to imagine all the hissy-fits and slaps that went on between the US Navy and the USAF over "who "owns" the cargo plane contracts?"

I think the only reason that one didn't "blow up" was because  WW-2 was raging,and the US needed all the cargo planes they could get,and there was and is no  way in HELL to land a cargo plane on a carrier and have it take off and do anything more than make a big splash when it leaves the deck.

Besides,they were both so busy designing and putting new cargo planes and fighter plans online to meet the 1941-1945 requirements that they probably just didn't have the time to have hissy-fits.

Add to that the FACT that the Navy fighters had to have different designs as well as different structural support to be able to fold the fights wings for storage below,as well as to handle the "sudden stops" when the fighters returned and had to land and be caught be a steel cable to keep them from running off the other end of the deck and crashing into the sea.

The fact that BOTH managed to design and put the fighters into production in such a short time and have them actually working and holding up is a tribute to BOTH forces.

Hell,they even managed to come up with new designs while the war was going on that no one had even thought of before. Planes like the p-15 and even the first jet fighters,for example. I stand in awe of their engineering ability.

I can't stop without adding the FACT that a lot of those late-ww2 fighters were STILL being used for close ground support operations in VN. I do not mind admitting that I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for the close air support these "obsolete WW-2 fighter/bombers provided us in VN,Cambodia,Laos,and NVN.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2023, 09:21:35 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2023, 09:29:09 pm »
Quote from: sneakypete on May 20, 2023, 09:18:31 pm

@Smokin Joe

Can you even BEGIN to imagine all the hissy-fits and slaps that went on between the US Navy and the USAF over "who "owns" the cargo plane contracts?"

I think the only reason that one didn't "blow up" was because  WW-2 was raging,and the US needed all the cargo planes they could get,and there was and is no  way in HELL to land a cargo plane on a carrier and have it take off and do anything more than make a big splash when it leaves the deck.

Besides,they were both so busy designing and putting new cargo planes and fighter plans online to meet the 1941-1945 requirements that they probably just didn't have the time to have hissy-fits.

Add to that the FACT that the Navy fighters had to have different designs as well as different structural support to be able to fold the fights wings for storage below,as well as to handle the "sudden stops" when the fighters returned and had to land and be caught be a steel cable to keep them from running off the other end of the deck and crashing into the sea.

The fact that BOTH managed to design and put the fighters into production in such a short time and have them actually working and holding up is a tribute to BOTH forces.

Hell,they even managed to come up with new designs while the war was going on that no one had even thought of before. Planes like the p-15 and even the first jet fighters,for example. I stand in awe of their engineering ability.
The P-51, P-47, and P-38, and even the B-25 (which did fly off a carrier to bomb Tokyo), were all awesome planes. The Mustang for its range, speed, maneuverability, the 'Jug' for its ability to fly fighter support or equally, do ground attack and withstand punishment, the Lightning for sheer capability in Pacific and European theatres (they got Yamoto), and the B-25 which was adapted from everything from a medium bomber to the H variant with a total of eight .50 cals in the nose used to attack coastal shipping and anything else handy.

While people think of Hurricanes, Spitfires, B-17s and B-24s, there were al lot of great planes, and the Navy ones not so well known included the Helldiver, Avenger, Wildcat, Hellcat, and the F-4U Corsair, designed specifically to fly off a pitching deck, take it to the enemy, and land on that ship again. When you consider the variety, from the Catalina flying boats to the p-39 (built with a midships engine), it is a testament to an adaptable America we may not see again for a while, one where people built their own bulldozers in their garages.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2023, 11:43:57 pm »
Quote from: Smokin Joe on May 20, 2023, 09:29:09 pm
The P-51, P-47, and P-38, and even the B-25 (which did fly off a carrier to bomb Tokyo), were all awesome planes. The Mustang for its range, speed, maneuverability, the 'Jug' for its ability to fly fighter support or equally, do ground attack and withstand punishment, the Lightning for sheer capability in Pacific and European theatres (they got Yamoto), and the B-25 which was adapted from everything from a medium bomber to the H variant with a total of eight .50 cals in the nose used to attack coastal shipping and anything else handy.

While people think of Hurricanes, Spitfires, B-17s and B-24s, there were al lot of great planes, and the Navy ones not so well known included the Helldiver, Avenger, Wildcat, Hellcat, and the F-4U Corsair, designed specifically to fly off a pitching deck, take it to the enemy, and land on that ship again. When you consider the variety, from the Catalina flying boats to the p-39 (built with a midships engine), it is a testament to an adaptable America we may not see again for a while, one where people built their own bulldozers in their garages.


@Smokin Joe

"F-4U Corsair" awesome fighter/bomber,and it had the ability to take an enormous amount of damage and still fly.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2023, 12:03:42 am »
Quote from: sneakypete on May 20, 2023, 11:43:57 pm

@Smokin Joe

"F-4U Corsair" awesome fighter/bomber,and it had the ability to take an enormous amount of damage and still fly.
It was and it did, but they were not nearly as pilot friendly as the P-51 or the P-47 (harder to fly). The P-51 was rated very sweetly by the pilots as being easy to fly, the P-47 got high marks for durability, armor protection for the pilot, raw power (a 2,000 horsepower radial), and eight .50 caliber machine guns. The Corsair remained in service through Korea, used as a ground attack aircraft (rockets, bombs, napalm, and strafing). All of the planes we have mentioned were awesome in their own way, and we haven't even moved on to the A-1 Skyraider (Spad)...
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How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2023, 03:21:44 am »
Quote from: mountaineer on May 20, 2023, 07:27:24 pm
Prigozhin’s video announcement celebrating the Russian victory in Bakhmut. Fully translated into English

Ukrainian soldiers still fighting inside Bakhmut.  This was today:

from r/UkraineWarVideoReport

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/13nc84f/meanwhile_ukrainian_pyotr_verzilov_published/

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #105 on: May 21, 2023, 03:22:09 am »
Quote from: Smokin Joe on May 21, 2023, 12:03:42 am
It was and it did, but they were not nearly as pilot friendly as the P-51 or the P-47 (harder to fly). The P-51 was rated very sweetly by the pilots as being easy to fly, the P-47 got high marks for durability, armor protection for the pilot, raw power (a 2,000 horsepower radial), and eight .50 caliber machine guns. The Corsair remained in service through Korea, used as a ground attack aircraft (rockets, bombs, napalm, and strafing). All of the planes we have mentioned were awesome in their own way, and we haven't even moved on to the A-1 Skyraider (Spad)...

@Smokin Joe

Maybe MY personal favorite because they flat saved my ass on several occasions,although to be technically correct,I do believe they were the A1-E versions.

It also needs to be said that ALL the "Spad Pilots" flying in VN had balls of brass,and the airplanes that fit them. I have had them come in on napalm runs to keep the NVA out of our perimiter so low we could see the pilot smile as he did a barrel roll over us after dumping his load. Seems like they usually had the canopies slid back so their "squadron scarves" could be seen by everybody to let us know who it was that was saving our asses.

I flat admire the HELL out of those guys. As I have noted  in similar posts,they ALL knew they had a standing invitation to come and party with us in our NCO club ANYTIME they could make it,and their drinks and food wouldn't cost them anything. What does THAT tell you,knowing that SF guys are NOT easy to impress?

BTW,helo crews and pilots had the same invitations,and for the same reasons. Without them guys going WAAAAY over the courage line/line of duty line to save our asses,a lot fewer of us would have survived even our first tour.

Besides,those old  radial engines made THE coolest sounds you have ever heard when they are coming in on the attack,and then climbing back up  out  of gunfire range. It was just like being in a WW-2 John Wayne movie.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #106 on: May 21, 2023, 03:22:21 am »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #107 on: May 21, 2023, 03:24:25 am »
Quote from: Hoodat on May 21, 2023, 03:22:21 am
Russians continue to shell a city they claim to 100% occupy.

from r/UkraineWarVideoReport

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/13nac2v/a_ukrainian_drone_captures_a_birds_eye_view_of/

@Hoodat

AND??????

These are Russians. That sort of thing is just traditional for them.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #108 on: May 21, 2023, 03:44:02 am »
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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Online Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2023, 12:35:29 pm »
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #110 on: May 21, 2023, 02:33:12 pm »
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #111 on: May 21, 2023, 03:19:53 pm »
The Ukrainians defended Bakhmut because the loss ratio was favorable for them.  If they think it remains favorable, they'll keep defending it.  Otherwise, they won't.

It's strategic value at this point is almost non-existent given that the Russian lost all that ground to the north and south.  Because of those losses, they can't advance any further west out of Bakhmut even if they have taken it because they'd get cutoff.  So it marks the limit of their ability to advance regardless of whether the Ukrainians or Russians hold it.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #112 on: May 21, 2023, 03:42:51 pm »
Quote from: Maj. Bill Martin on May 21, 2023, 03:19:53 pm
The Ukrainians defended Bakhmut because the loss ratio was favorable for them.  If they think it remains favorable, they'll keep defending it.  Otherwise, they won't.

It's strategic value at this point is almost non-existent given that the Russian lost all that ground to the north and south.  Because of those losses, they can't advance any further west out of Bakhmut even if they have taken it because they'd get cutoff.  So it marks the limit of their ability to advance regardless of whether the Ukrainians or Russians hold it.

This is true.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #113 on: May 21, 2023, 03:52:52 pm »
Quote from: Hoodat on May 21, 2023, 03:42:51 pm
This is true.

@Hoodat

Also,it seems like the city has now been shelled to the point where there are no longer any livable buildings standing.
In effect,there is no longer a livable city there.
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #114 on: May 21, 2023, 05:08:01 pm »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #115 on: May 21, 2023, 08:59:04 pm »
Quote from: sneakypete on May 21, 2023, 03:52:52 pm
@Hoodat

Also,it seems like the city has now been shelled to the point where there are no longer any livable buildings standing.
In effect,there is no longer a livable city there.
True, but like Stalingrad, those ruins can be an absolute sonofab*tch to get defenders out of, shelling or no.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #116 on: May 21, 2023, 11:42:59 pm »
Russian ammunition stored under bridge


https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1660240091980222465
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-Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2023, 02:55:30 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2023, 03:13:18 am »
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2023, 04:43:41 am »
Putin’s orcs have been claiming victory in Bakhmut since January or February.
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Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #120 on: May 22, 2023, 10:27:33 am »
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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #121 on: May 22, 2023, 11:08:25 am »
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #122 on: May 22, 2023, 12:16:17 pm »
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #123 on: May 22, 2023, 12:21:01 pm »
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #124 on: May 22, 2023, 12:23:02 pm »
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