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Offline Kamaji

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The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« on: April 25, 2023, 09:49:23 am »
The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated

By Desmond Lachman
April 23, 2023

Some alarmist warnings never seem to go away no matter how often they prove mistaken.

One is that the US dollar is bound to lose its position soon as the world’s dominant international reserve currency, with all the benefits such status affords the US economy.

Judging by a chorus of dollar pessimists including Yale’s Stephen Roach and former Morgan Stanley economist Stephen Jen, it seems the idea the dollar will be dethroned is back in vogue.

Even Brazil’s President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva says, “Every night I ask myself: Why should every country have to be tied to the US dollar for trade?’’

Despite many such warnings over the past two decades, the US dollar remains by far the top dog amongst the world’s currencies.

While the dollar has lost some share in the past decade, the International Monetary Fund says the world’s central banks still hold close to 60% of their international reserves in dollars.

Meanwhile, per the Bank for International Settlements, almost 90% of international trade continues to be transacted in dollars.

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Source:  https://nypost.com/2023/04/23/the-us-dollars-imminent-death-is-greatly-exaggerated/

Offline LMAO

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2023, 12:21:59 pm »
When I read articles about “de dollarization” I wondered what currency would replace the dollar

China seems to be doing well economically. But that’s more a case of the West screwing itself over vs any great economic policy China has
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2023, 12:33:48 pm »
If the BRICS countries can come to an agreement and create a viable currency with critical mass, that will replace the dollar.

The propaganda wants to keep deflecting this to be about China, when China is only going to be part of the whole. And if BRICS can come up with a tangible backed currency, it will be a threat to the fiat dollar.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2023, 12:38:50 pm »
If the BRICS countries can come to an agreement and create a viable currency with critical mass, that will replace the dollar.

The propaganda wants to keep deflecting this to be about China, when China is only going to be part of the whole. And if BRICS can come up with a tangible backed currency, it will be a threat to the fiat dollar.

Certainly, but that "if" is a huge "if" and it is doubtful they could accomplish that in a meaningful way that would have a significant effect on international trade.

They've been trying for years and years to accomplish exactly this result, so far without success.

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2023, 12:49:39 pm »
Certainly, but that "if" is a huge "if" and it is doubtful they could accomplish that in a meaningful way that would have a significant effect on international trade.

They've been trying for years and years to accomplish exactly this result, so far without success.

True, but part of this coalition are two countries that make up over a third of the population on Earth, four countries with large landmass, and two large oil and gas producers among the group. Enough economic clout to make a viable attempt, and more waiting to join.

People said the EU couldn't do the same, yet it did. We aren't in new territory.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 12:52:21 pm by Free Vulcan »
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2023, 01:11:06 pm »
Charles Payne had a good read on this a few weeks ago, and I really like his FBN opeds on these matters.

His take is that it is envitable, every world economic power in history has ebbed and flowed Egytians, Greeks, Romans, Spanish, Dutch, English.......(in near order).  He thinks in the modern time a 100 years is about the life cycle of a reference currency, and we are near or at the end of our run.  Behmoth economies often topple under their largess and mismanagment.  And we are a sterling example of that right now. 

My thoughts?  I think we will see it in my short lifetime left.  But there are some infrastuctual issues that remain before a BRICS like currency first undercuts us, then replaces as the reference currency.  What I think will be the biggest hold up in this process is the fact that the Chicoms are new in the capitalist world, and still have some growing pains making the transition from Mao Tse Tung communism to bustling working system.  There are still a large section of the population that doesn't know how to pee without some form of governmental or direction.  Also add the fact that the Chicoms share the same shitty old-heavy demographic profiles as Japan that are hurting their productivity.  That is why you are seeing such investment, intervention, and almost eco-proxy in Africa and South America.  These 3rd world nations are going to be the industrial engine supporting their growth.

Secondly, and @sneakypete  correctly mentioned it a few days ago.....  The Chinese are not an innovative country.  Pretty much all their portfolio has been borrowed, bought, and stolen via reverse engineering and IP theft.  With this level of chicanery, I have a feeling that even their most loyal of BRICS partners are going to have a lot of trust issues. 

Without getting to wordy, I am now leaning that this conversion while inevitable, likely at least won't happen this year, unless some drastic geo-political event triggers it. 

Can we be saved?  here is my fix-it plan.  If they let me run this place, I'd give this country some tough medicine, starting with:

*  Zero based budgetting acorss the board, and in fact would force every Department to reduce 10% every year for the next decade looking for waste. 
* Super-Task Force created by POTUS and congress/states  to look for and eliminate governmental regulatory redundancies
* An incremental 5% per year conversion of the $USD from Fiat to Gold Standard.  With whatever the promulgation date of the law is as reference Gold price.  A float conversion wlll be made annually to stabilize currency.
* Raise the SS retirement age to 70 until, solvency of the system has been resolved.
* Gut the entitlement state to just those who deserve. A decent wage for a decent job
* Gut federal off-shore aid except in times of emergency
* Stop the endless line of proxy wars we've seen in the past 30....  Pronto.

I know a lot of this might not be popular, but this would help us survive.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 01:12:22 pm by catfish1957 »
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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2023, 01:40:51 pm »
When I read articles about “de dollarization” I wondered what currency would replace the dollar

China seems to be doing well economically. But that’s more a case of the West screwing itself over vs any great economic policy China has

https://www.forbes.com/sites/miltonezrati/2023/01/16/chinas-overwhelming-debt-burden-points-to-still-deeper-problems/?sh=242435dc4433

Not only that, if the dollar collapsed, our exports would get cheaper, way cheaper, vs. china's. Do you think they want that?

Remember when China was heavily criticized for weakening their currency on purpose?

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2023, 01:59:30 pm »
https://www.forbes.com/sites/miltonezrati/2023/01/16/chinas-overwhelming-debt-burden-points-to-still-deeper-problems/?sh=242435dc4433

Not only that, if the dollar collapsed, our exports would get cheaper, way cheaper, vs. china's. Do you think they want that?

Remember when China was heavily criticized for weakening their currency on purpose?

If global commodities weren't denominated in dollars, I'd tend to agree. From our perspective though, it will by hyperinflation like Zimbabwe, not a manufacturing advantage.
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2023, 02:03:06 pm »
If global commodities weren't denominated in dollars, I'd tend to agree. From our perspective though, it will by hyperinflation like Zimbabwe, not a manufacturing advantage.

What we see from the Fed in the next 12-18 months, and the '24 election  will set that direction.  My opinion and feel for this changes ongoing, but right now, I am leaning 60/40 toward hyperinflation.
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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2023, 02:05:08 pm »
What we see from the Fed in the next 12-18 months, and the '24 election  will set that direction.  My opinion and feel for this changes ongoing, but right now, I am leaning 60/40 toward hyperinflation.

Been hearing that all my life, it's never happened. We do have inflation already of course.

Offline catfish1957

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2023, 02:16:53 pm »
Been hearing that all my life, it's never happened. We do have inflation already of course.

How many times in you life has Debt to GDP ratio been over 150%?

And how many times in your life have seen more self destructive economic policies? 

Your "hearing that all my life" basically has been your government proverbally kicking the can down the road. Very few sane are saying it is immenint.  It's that way with any economic prognostication, but from my POV, the odds are higher......  at least in "all my life"
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2023, 02:25:07 pm »
Been hearing that all my life, it's never happened. We do have inflation already of course.

There are many things in my lifetime that were never supposed to happen, but happened.

No one has ever attempted a commodities based currency to compete with the petrodollar. If they can pull enough demand away from it, it will have major economic consequences here.
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Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2023, 03:02:54 pm »
A reserve currency, and those who back it, need to be trustworthy, stable, and have a robust pro-business legal regime.  The People's Republic of China is communist.  Having your reserve currency issued by Chi-coms is not a recipe for success.

If you exclude the US Dollar, the Chinese Yuan, and the Euro, who is left?


After World War II, the US had the only economy still standing.  The British Empire was breaking up.  The US Dollar was the only currency that had a Government and an economy to back its value.

What the BRICs are seeking is not a traditional national currency, but an international exchange currency that is a stable, reliable, transactional store of wealth backed by a trustworthy trade entity with a robust, stable, pro-business legal system.

This made me think of the US Trade Dollar ...


The question is which nation-state has the wealth and legal system to back such a currency? 

Some Persian Gulf nations may have sufficient wealth to back such a currency, but the Persian Gulf is a volatile region.

South Africa has mineral resources that could back such a currency.  Again, political stability and legal are questionable.

Chances are, a new trade currency would be backed by a reserve of a nation whose legal system has its origins in Great Britain.  Of all the world's legal regimes, the British regime has produced more wealth than the French, Spanish, Chinese, and others.

The United States, historically, has a competitive advantage of geographic stability compared to nations in other regions of the world.  The greatest threat to the US Dollar losing its world-wide reserve status comes from US domestic political instability, not international instability.

The BRICs can dream, but pragmatically, the odds are not in their collective favor.
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2023, 03:22:46 pm »
A reserve currency, and those who back it, need to be trustworthy, stable, and have a robust pro-business legal regime.  The People's Republic of China is communist.  Having your reserve currency issued by Chi-coms is not a recipe for success.

If you exclude the US Dollar, the Chinese Yuan, and the Euro, who is left?


After World War II, the US had the only economy still standing.  The British Empire was breaking up.  The US Dollar was the only currency that had a Government and an economy to back its value.

What the BRICs are seeking is not a traditional national currency, but an international exchange currency that is a stable, reliable, transactional store of wealth backed by a trustworthy trade entity with a robust, stable, pro-business legal system.

This made me think of the US Trade Dollar ...


The question is which nation-state has the wealth and legal system to back such a currency? 

Some Persian Gulf nations may have sufficient wealth to back such a currency, but the Persian Gulf is a volatile region.

South Africa has mineral resources that could back such a currency.  Again, political stability and legal are questionable.

Chances are, a new trade currency would be backed by a reserve of a nation whose legal system has its origins in Great Britain.  Of all the world's legal regimes, the British regime has produced more wealth than the French, Spanish, Chinese, and others.

The United States, historically, has a competitive advantage of geographic stability compared to nations in other regions of the world.  The greatest threat to the US Dollar losing its world-wide reserve status comes from US domestic political instability, not international instability.

The BRICs can dream, but pragmatically, the odds are not in their collective favor.

Interesting take, but you did realize that some of your examples make up the collective of BRICS?  I believe that at some point, and probably due to some geo-poltical upheaval the $USD will be supplanted.  Big question will be, will be if it is with a whimper or a crash.

When you take a composite of Russian farmland and minerals, Chicom mineral and military and financial backing, OPEC Oil, and South African Gold (commodity base), you actually have an overall much sounder and stronger financial infrastructure base that would support a reference currency  Contrast that versus a fiat currency like ours that treats its fiscal house like a limitless credit card?  Really not a hard decison for the 200+ nations to make at some point
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2023, 03:25:43 pm »
The greatest threat to the US Dollar losing its world-wide reserve status comes from US domestic political instability, not international instability.

And that's the problem - we keep flushing ourselves down the sewer. At some point we're going to back the rest of the world into a corner because we will no longer be internally stable.
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2023, 03:29:51 pm »
And that's the problem - we keep flushing ourselves down the sewer. At some point we're going to back the rest of the world into a corner because we will no longer be internally stable.

Yep, we are the head lemming looking down the crevice and are wondering if the 200+ followers are coming too. 

I have feeling we won't have too many takers. 
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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2023, 04:01:56 pm »
I'm only talking short term, and from an investing perspective. I just don't see a replacement for our currency.

In the long term, this will erode our standard of living an exacerbate inequality, and already has as a matter of fact.

Offline catfish1957

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2023, 04:47:52 pm »
I'm only talking short term, and from an investing perspective. I just don't see a replacement for our currency.

In the long term, this will erode our standard of living an exacerbate inequality, and already has as a matter of fact.

100% truth to all of this.  In fact I am guessing maybe 50/50 + or - of currency  decoupling in my lifetime.  But my kid's?  It's almost a certainty.  I hope all Briefers have their portfolios set in a matter that has some disaster provisions in place as contingencies.  That includes metals, income producing lands, and even equities that have a usable needable tangible product for humans to live....  Like food fuel, and shelter.

And for the longest, and I still believe it, we are approacing an inflationary environment or a situation where a major market correction is warranted.  No where in history, considering debt/GDP, and capitalization does a 35K DJIA make sense or is sustainable.   I lived and fought through '80, '87, '00, and '08.  This is not a good look right now.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2023, 05:26:27 am »
If the BRICS countries can come to an agreement and create a viable currency with critical mass, that will replace the dollar.

The propaganda wants to keep deflecting this to be about China, when China is only going to be part of the whole. And if BRICS can come up with a tangible backed currency, it will be a threat to the fiat dollar.

I don't think it is possible for a unified BRICS currency to exist.  For that to happen, all of the members would have to cede control of their monetary policy to a central organization, and given their wildly diverse economic situations, systems, and national interests, I just don't see that happening.

Offline catfish1957

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2023, 06:08:58 am »
I don't think it is possible for a unified BRICS currency to exist.  For that to happen, all of the members would have to cede control of their monetary policy to a central organization, and given their wildly diverse economic situations, systems, and national interests, I just don't see that happening.

I don't think the cat herding will be easy, but it will be do-able and will happen at some point.  But, I am also leaning that it might come in the form of a one-world currency dominated  by BRICS on adhoc basis.   I am also guessing that the newly established currency will be based on tangible value....maybe reference on gold  instead of fiat based.  Soverign fiscal condition will highly impact how each country floats against it, much like we would have been in the past with gold standard. 

In any case, it will be messy as hell, and one big ledger of winners and loser once the smoke clears.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 12:27:01 pm by catfish1957 »
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2023, 12:16:31 pm »
I don't think it is possible for a unified BRICS currency to exist.  For that to happen, all of the members would have to cede control of their monetary policy to a central organization, and given their wildly diverse economic situations, systems, and national interests, I just don't see that happening.

With a fiat currency yes, with a tangible backed currency that's not an absolute.

And if the US keeps deteriorating it's financial position we're going to force them to do something whether they like it or not.
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2023, 10:51:16 pm »
Vulcan strikes the anvil with:
"And if the US keeps deteriorating it's financial position we're going to force them to do something whether they like it or not."

Ever read any of Matt Bracken's "Enemies, Foreign and Domestic" books?

Mr. Bracken predicts that when the dollar gets devalued towards nothingness, that the government will issue new "blue bucks", which (after a specific date) will become the legal tender (and after which "green" bucks will be illegal).

The catch: you'll need to hand in 100 green bucks to get a single blue one.

That could never happen here.
Right...?

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2023, 12:16:32 am »
Vulcan strikes the anvil with:
"And if the US keeps deteriorating it's financial position we're going to force them to do something whether they like it or not."

Ever read any of Matt Bracken's "Enemies, Foreign and Domestic" books?

Mr. Bracken predicts that when the dollar gets devalued towards nothingness, that the government will issue new "blue bucks", which (after a specific date) will become the legal tender (and after which "green" bucks will be illegal).

The catch: you'll need to hand in 100 green bucks to get a single blue one.

That could never happen here.
Right...?

I have, like alot of his stuff. Wasn't he on FR? Wonder what he's up to these days.
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2023, 04:12:54 am »


The catch: you'll need to hand in 100 green bucks to get a single blue one.

That could never happen here.
Right...?

That just might be what happens during the currency conversion.  I seriously doubt we will see a 99% devaluation, but it could get pretty damned ugly.  The  more likely, scenario at conversion will be hyperinflation, where z  loaf of bread by cost $300 at your local grocery.  The $USD will remain, as long as there is a United States.  But just like in colonial America, there may be a mish mash of diferent money at our disposal.
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Re: The US dollar’s imminent death is greatly exaggerated
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2023, 01:30:53 pm »
With a fiat currency yes, with a tangible backed currency that's not an absolute.

And if the US keeps deteriorating it's financial position we're going to force them to do something whether they like it or not.

And the Brics are all or mostly worse than the US government spending/debt-wise.

Edit: the Brics are pretty similiar to the US's position debt to gdp wise.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 01:34:16 pm by Weird Tolkienish Figure »