Author Topic: Kevin McCarthy Introduces “Fair Tax” Which Would Abolish Federal Income Tax  (Read 1524 times)

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Offline EdinVA

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A National Sales Tax would mean that the Government would be less intrusive in People's lives and in Businesses.


Not so sure.  The feds would be able to track every purchase you made, fire arms and ammo included, and be able to tax to eradicate their demons.  They already do for booze and tobacco.  It would also require a whole new agency to issue and track sales tax registrations and payment.
I like the idea but it needs some ironing...

Offline catfish1957

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A National Sales Tax would mean that the Government would be less intrusive in People's lives and in Businesses.

A National Sales Tax would put more pressures on Businesses' profit margins as its inputs are taxed and its customers have to pay a higher price for their output.



I like my idea of a blended bastardized version better, in that VAT's are regressive in nature that are hence GDP growth killers, and in my greedy little  world, dividend killers due to the reduced EPS that would follow equities in tandem.

OTOH, I sure like the idea of full simplization of the IRS income tax aspect (lower rate flat tax) which makes the April 15th a 1 hour exercise rather than a 100.

That is why I prefer the blend. So that the pain is shared.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 05:16:24 pm by catfish1957 »
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Online Hoodat

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Not so sure.  The feds would be able to track every purchase you made, fire arms and ammo included, and be able to tax to eradicate their demons.  They already do for booze and tobacco.  It would also require a whole new agency to issue and track sales tax registrations and payment.

@EdinVA - Exactly.  The BATF is transformed into the longest acronym in government.  Instead of searching for your stills in Franklin County, they will be coming by your house seeking proof that taxes were paid on the lumber you used to build that new garage.  So instead of keeping one income tax return each year, one may have to keep receipts of everything purchases lest the re-ve-noo-ers come after you later down the line.

Now @Bigun will argue this is all nonsense, that the Feds can be trusted to leave tax collection up to the States.  But States are already in charge of cigarette taxes, liquor taxes, etc., yet we still have a BATF.

Bottom line, I DO NOT TRUST the Federal Government.  So I am loathe to give them a new means of taxation over us.  The power to tax is the power to destroy.
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Online Bigun

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Not so sure.  The feds would be able to track every purchase you made, fire arms and ammo included, and be able to tax to eradicate their demons.  They already do for booze and tobacco.  It would also require a whole new agency to issue and track sales tax registrations and payment.
I like the idea but it needs some ironing...

Wrong on all counts @EdinVA all that would be required would be the addition of a few lines of code to the cash register programs 45 of the 50 states already have in place no federal agencies required at all beyond the treasury.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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@EdinVA - Exactly.  The BATF is transformed into the longest acronym in government.  Instead of searching for your stills in Franklin County, they will be coming by your house seeking proof that taxes were paid on the lumber you used to build that new garage.  So instead of keeping one income tax return each year, one may have to keep receipts of everything purchases lest the re-ve-noo-ers come after you later down the line.

Now @Bigun will argue this is all nonsense, that the Feds can be trusted to leave tax collection up to the States.  But States are already in charge of cigarette taxes, liquor taxes, etc., yet we still have a BATF.

Bottom line, I DO NOT TRUST the Federal Government.  So I am loathe to give them a new means of taxation over us.  The power to tax is the power to destroy.

Nope @Hoodat Bigun will argue that passing the FairTax into law would simply return us to the only form of taxation universally endorsed by our founders and rid us of the Communist inspired mess we currently endure.  (See Federalist 21 to which there was no anti federalist reply. Also Communist Manifesto, Section II, Toward the end.)

And BTW; I do not trust the Federal government AT ALL which is why I favor removing things like the IRS from their bag of tricks permanently!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 06:42:41 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Hoodat

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Nope @Hoodat Bigun will argue that passing the FairTax into law would simply return us to the only form of taxation universally endorsed by our founders and rid us of the Communist inspired mess we currently endure.  (See Federalist 21 to which there was no anti federalist reply. Also Communist Manifesto, Section II, Toward the end.)

Again, I hear what you are saying.  But I have zero faith that the Federal Government will go along with that.  Pass an Amendment first.  Then we can talk.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Online Hoodat

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Wrong on all counts @EdinVA all that would be required would be the addition of a few lines of code to the cash register programs 45 of the 50 states already have in place no federal agencies required at all beyond the treasury.

The same cash register codes they already have in place for cigarettes and liquor?  Yet we still have a BATF.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Offline EdinVA

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Wrong on all counts @EdinVA all that would be required would be the addition of a few lines of code to the cash register programs 45 of the 50 states already have in place no federal agencies required at all beyond the treasury.
@Bigun States "pay" retailers for collecting and tracking sales tax so would the feds do the same or do we just load retailers up with extra reporting and not compensate them?
Color me skeptical...
What would you do with businesses?  How would you allow for depreciation of equipment, or would you?
How about businesses like cleaning businesses, they don't sell anything but services but they buy a lot of cleaning equipment, do the whole sellers now collect sales tax?

Online Bigun

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Again, I hear what you are saying.  But I have zero faith that the Federal Government will go along with that.  Pass an Amendment first.  Then we can talk.

Can't be done that way and you know it!

PS; I added a sentence to my post above.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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@Bigun States "pay" retailers for collecting and tracking sales tax so would the feds do the same or do we just load retailers up with extra reporting and not compensate them?
Color me skeptical...
What would you do with businesses?  How would you allow for depreciation of equipment, or would you?
How about businesses like cleaning businesses, they don't sell anything but services but they buy a lot of cleaning equipment, do the whole sellers now collect sales tax?

Yes @EdinVA  under the FairTax, states would be compensated as would retailers. If I could get folks to simply READ THE BILL (linked to above) we could have a much more productive conversation.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 06:52:59 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Hoodat

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Can't be done that way and you know it!

It can't be done that way because government is unwilling to forfeit power.  Period.  Which is why I am not willing to give them even more power with a national sales tax while they still have the power to tax my income.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Online Bigun

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It can't be done that way because government is unwilling to forfeit power.  Period.  Which is why I am not willing to give them even more power with a national sales tax while they still have the power to tax my income.

You keep repeating that line @Hoodat but I simply cannot understand how getting rid  of the Marxist income tax and it's handmaiden IRS is giving the FedGov more power.  PLEASE explain.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Hoodat

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If I could get folks to simply READ THE BILL (linked to above) .  .  .[/size]

Chapter 3 needs to be scrapped in its entirety.  Sec 103 is a big problem, too.  As if businesses don't already have enough to do.  There will be a substantial increase in the demand for accountants.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Online Hoodat

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You keep repeating that line @Hoodat but I simply cannot understand how getting rid  of the Marxist income tax and it's handmaiden IRS is giving the FedGov more power.  PLEASE explain.

First off, the income tax isn't Marxist.  It is Biblical.  Secondly, the Federal Government currently has the power to levy taxes on income.  Again, I refer you to the Constitution:

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


This means that at ANY time in the future, the federal government can impose an income tax in addition to this sales tax.  It cannot be any plainer.
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Online Bigun

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Chapter 3 needs to be scrapped in its entirety.

Here you and I find some agreement.  The original bill did not have that provision. It was added because of Democrat lies and because so many lack even a basic understanding of economics. I favor keeping it now because it takes away so many of their spurious arguments.

 
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Sec 103 is a big problem, too.  As if businesses don't already have enough to do.  There will be a substantial increase in the demand for accountants.

Have you forgotten that the income tax (both personal and corporate) and ALL current payroll taxes would now be gone?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Hoodat

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Have you forgotten that the income tax (both personal and corporate) and ALL current payroll taxes would now be gone?

For a while, anyway.  But Sec 103 puts the onus on both the seller and the purchaser.  So who is going to enforce compliance?  Once a month, I am required to submit a tax form to whatever entity replaces the IRS detailing everything I have sold in the last 30 days?  And if I fail to do that, then the buyers will be tracked down by that same entity, demanded of proof that they paid federal taxes on their purchases?  This scenario repeated each month, every month throughout the year?  No thanks.

I can track my own income.  I can prove that taxes were withheld.  I only have to submit this one time each year.  And I don't have to worry about anyone else's sales or purchases.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-

Online Bigun

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First off, the income tax isn't Marxist.

Say what?

“Maybe we ought to see that every person who gets a tax return receives a copy of the Communist Manifesto with it so he can see what's happening to him.”

T. Coleman Andrews, Commissioner of IRS, May 25, 1956 in U.S. News & World Report.

Quote
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

Quoted from The Manifesto of the Communist Party, Chapter II. Proletarians and Communists

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm



 
Quote
It is Biblical.  Secondly, the Federal Government currently has the power to levy taxes on income.  Again, I refer you to the Constitution:

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


This means that at ANY time in the future, the federal government can impose an income tax in addition to this sales tax.  It cannot be any plainer.

And has been explained on this thread several times already,
Quote
Repealing the 16th wouldn't do diddly-squat to prevent income taxation of wages.  Capital gains, interest, and rents?  Yes, but not wages.

https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,489799.msg2772515.html#msg2772515




"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Hoodat

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I do not support a "heavy progressive or graduated income tax".  But then you knew that already.

Also, "wages" qualify as "incomes, from whatever source derived".
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-

Online Bigun

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I do not support a "heavy progressive or graduated income tax".  But then you knew that already.

Also, "wages" qualify as "incomes, from whatever source derived".

Quote
TITLE III—OTHER MATTERS

SEC. 301. PHASE-OUT OF ADMINISTRATION OF REPEALED FEDERAL TAXES.
(a) Appropriations.—Appropriations for any expenses of the Internal Revenue Service including processing tax returns for years prior to the repeal of the taxes repealed by title I of this Act, revenue accounting, management, transfer of payroll and wage data to the Social Security Administration for years after fiscal year 2027 shall not be authorized.

(b) Records.—Federal records related to the administration of taxes repealed by title I of this Act shall be destroyed by the end of fiscal year 2027, except that any records necessary to calculate Social Security benefits shall be retained by the Social Security Administration and any records necessary to support ongoing litigation with respect to taxes owed or refunds due shall be retained until final disposition of such litigation.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/25/text?r=18&s=1#toc-HDEAC6FBEE53E4C80BA555F1F714A907C

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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I do not support a "heavy progressive or graduated income tax".

Out of curiosity, what DO you support @Hoodat ?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Hoodat

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(b) Records.—Federal records related to the administration of taxes repealed by title I of this Act shall be destroyed by the end of fiscal year 2027,

A record destroying statute does NOT prevent Congress from reinstating an income tax the very next year.  You are relying on ignorant trust that the government won't come back later and change the law again.  Thus the need for a Constitutional Amendment.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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Online Hoodat

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Out of curiosity, what DO you support @Hoodat ?

Again, a flat income tax.  Everyone pays the same percentage.  Everyone.  If you make $10,000, you pay $1,700.  If you make $1,000,000,000, you pay $170,000,000.
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Online Bigun

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Again, a flat income tax.  Everyone pays the same percentage.  Everyone.  If you make $10,000, you pay $1,700.  If you make $1,000,000,000, you pay $170,000,000.

OK! Here are a few things I find objectionable about that:

1. It requires the retention of the IRS and ALL of its intrusive powers

2. It can easily grow back into what we have now.

3. It would continue what is the cottage industry of Washington D.C. i.e. Defining the word "Income" and thus would keep K Street Lobby employed just as it is now

4. It leaves in place all payroll, gift, and estate taxes.

Linked below is a chart that compares  The FairTax, flat rate income tax, and the current income tax.

https://mr.cdn.ignitecdn.com/client_assets/fairtaxorg/media/attachments/56c4/af83/6970/2d1c/f60a/0000/56c4af8369702d1cf60a0000.pdf?1455730563

You might want to take a good look at that.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 08:55:52 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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A record destroying statute does NOT prevent Congress from reinstating an income tax the very next year.  You are relying on ignorant trust that the government won't come back later and change the law again.  Thus the need for a Constitutional Amendment.

And neither would repeal of the 16th prevent that.

What amendment would be needed?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Hoodat

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OK! Here are a few things I find objectionable about that:

1. It requires the retention of the IRS and ALL of its intrusive powers


You're plan replaces the IRS with the BATFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ,


2. It can easily grow back into what we have now.

Yours can easily grow back into something much worse than we have now.


3. It would continue what is the cottage industry of Washington D.C. i.e. Defining the word "Income" and thus would keep K Street Lobby employed just as it is now

K-Street has nothing to do with income.  K-Street's sole focus is on spending and regulation.  That won't change.


4. It leaves in place all payroll, gift, and estate taxes.
[/size]

Receiving gifts and inheriting estates is not income.  If you are talking about social security taxes, those should be eliminated along with the program.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-