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Ukraine - From a Trump Voter Who Has Been There
starbuck_archer:
Hello fellow warriors fighting against the Marxist destruction of the West!
I am an Iraq/Afghanistan veteran who spent 6 months in 2022 doing humanitarian aid work in Ukraine, ranging from moving supplies to moving refugees to supporting medical and other war-effort support projects. I voted against Hillary Clinton (and ergo for Donald Trump) in 2016 and for Donald Trump in 2020.
I can understand where much of the anti-Ukraine sentiment on the right is coming from: Vladimir Putin is fighting against the World Economic Forum Davos elites now plotting to destroy the freedom of every American (including the left-liberals who still delusion-ally support the Left). The enemies of Putin include the deep state and the WEF. I can see why social conservatives would be attracted to some of his policies on homosexuality.
There are three main arguments put forth by the right against Ukraine:
-Ukraine is corrupt
-Ukraine has Neo-Nazi Support
-The United States has no strategic interest in Ukraine not becoming a Russian oblast
1. Ukraine Is Corrupt
I would say that this is mostly true. In the 6 months I spent in Ukraine, corruption in the post-Soviet era is a major problem that every Ukrainian I met says is a major problem. I applaud Volodomyr Zelenskyy for firing top officials, including some of his political allies (https://nypost.com/2022/07/18/zelensky-fires-top-officials-over-alleged-treason), for corruption.
Since I am not a leftist, I will be up front and honest: probably about 20% to 40% of the "aid" (from weapons to cash to loans) will probably be lost to "corruption." The Ukrainians are aware of the corruption problem, and earnestly want to fix it. I recall that Zelenskyy told Trump he ran on a "drain the swamp" platform (https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/25/politics/donald-trump-ukraine-transcript-call/index.html yeah, its CNN, but its a transcript)
I don't think we can hold a country that was under the objectively evil regime of Communism until 1991 to the same ethical standards as nations like the US: one had to do "back room deals" just to bleep survive under Communism.
2. The Azov Battalion
There is a lot to unpack here: Ihor Kolomoyski is an Israeli citizen who was one of the biggest donors to the Azov battalion. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi)
First, let us start off with the fact that in 1933, Communism had already murdered millions of Ukrainians in the Holodomor. In other words, Communism was a mass-murderer to the Ukrainians long before Hitler would start the Holocaust.
The Nazis were merely a different interpretation of Socialism: they were Nationalist Socialism as opposed to Marxist Socialism. Marxist Socialism seeks to redistribute the means of production on the basis of class. Nationalist Socialism seeks to redistribute the means of production on the basis of race.. Thus, they became blood enemies (yet Allies when it meant opposing Western Capitalism, see the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact).
As I have said before, "Anachro-capitalists hate min-archists more than they hate Communists": the Nazis hated the the apostates to their version of "true socialism" as much as the socialists of today when confronted with anytime socialism that failed catastrophically.
When the Germans invaded Ukraine in 1941, it wasn't Hitler who had starved 8 million of their people to death. Sadly, this caused some Ukrainians (including Bandera) to side with anyone willing to oppose the people who starved their loved ones to death.
Thus, some of the Nazi imagery/sympathy we see in parts of Ukraine. I think it is wrong, but I don't hold it to the same standard as the tiny number of actual neo-nazis in the US: the US neo-Nazis didn't grow up with stories about how "grandma died because the Communists starved her to death".
3. The United States has no Strategic Interest In Ukraine
-Ukraine has some of the largest natural gas reserves in Europe (https://www.worldometers.info/gas/#gas-reserves). Putin controlling these would cause the Russians to control even more of the European energy market than they do.
Okay, so the Libertarians among us will ask "why do I care?" (and the anachro-capitalists will never agree to any organized foreign policy action that has the hint of "government").
I will address this at the end, but nothing in Putin's agenda supports Making America Great Again. A stronger America is the opposite of what Putin wants. An America with a strong manufacturing base with a robust, stable and dominant economy with a domestic government that respects the rights of its citizens is not in line with Russian strategic aims: they do not seek to work within the international system, they seek to supplant and replace the US-led international system with one that is far more favorable to Russia than the US.
-The China Factor.
Simply put, if the United States is seen by our enemies to have failed in Ukraine, the number of wars we will have to fight will only increase.
A war with China will cost probably $5 trillion - $40 trillion: wars are damn expensive, and they are more expensive when the US has to fight them directly. Adjusted for inflation, it cost the US $4 trillion to win WWII, against two relatively resource poor nations that never stood a chance against the industrial/economic might of the US. I expect that when the world's two largest economies go head-to-head the cost will be significantly higher.
All of this can be avoided if China can be deterred from any military action. If the US is seen to fail in Ukraine, or back down, China will see that as a green-light to start WWIII. If you're worried about the $100 billion we have sent to Ukraine, I am worried about the $5 trillion+ we will have to spend if actual war breaks out between the US and China.
Minor Points
-The population of Ukraine is overwhelmingly socially conservative. If the left knew how right-wing most Ukrainians are on homosexuality and gender roles, they might start hailing Mother Russia.
-The Ukrainians want to fight, although there is an East-West divide. Support for the war tends to be greater in the West. In fact, I actually met a couple when I was near the front lines in the east where the husband was a patriotic Ukrainian soldier and the wife was pro-Putin. Even in the eastern areas like Kharkiv, a slim majority supports Ukraine over Russia, and the matter is by no means agreed upon by all locals.
-Putin does not want to Make America Great Again. He wants to see a weakened America: I can see why some on the right would be tempted by this, as he wants to make the corrupt Nazis currently at the World Economic Forum dis-empowered as much as we do.
What needs to replace the vaccuum created when we are able to get rid of the corrupt deep state is a pro-American "deep state" based on the Constitution instead of Ibrahim X. Kendi.
The thing is that even if Ronald Reagan (or some other libertarian or an-cap dude/gal you want) were president right now, Putin would be against them because he wants Russia to become the new international order instead of the US. Do not buy the whole "we just want a non-unipolar world".
Yeah, I bet you "don't want to put anyone in the shade, but Russia too must have its place in the sun!"...shortly before you invade Belgium, on your way to invade France in order to defend yourself from Russia, like that Kaiser in 1914.
Russia does not seek a "bi-polar international order" (or maybe it does, lol), but it seeks to become the international order, which is not in the US interest, due to many factors, but the petrodollar being important among them.
In summary, while Ukraine has corruption problems, its people are very self-aware of it and have been taking measures to crackdown on it for the past 3 years. While Russia hates the deep state and WEF almost as much as we do, Putin himself is the Russian deep state, running the country as the Clintons would run America if they could. A broken clock is correct twice a day, and thus Biden, the woke and the deep state find themselves on the same side as those of us who care about objective facts.
And if the US is seen to fail in Ukraine even 10% as badly as we did in Afghanistan, we will have to spend a lot more than $200 billion.
Kamaji:
:facepalm2:
starbuck_archer:
The best response ever. Thank you for your thoughtful, well-worded and utterly devastating rebuttal arguments. Aristotle would be proud.
Kamaji:
--- Quote from: starbuck_archer on January 19, 2023, 07:18:52 pm ---The best response ever. Thank you for your thoughtful, well-worded and utterly devastating rebuttal arguments. Aristotle would be proud.
--- End quote ---
And even then, it's a better response than that drivel deserves.
DB:
Ukraine may be the only reason China hasn't tried to take Taiwan.
Seeing what happened to Russia was a serious setback for them.
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