Author Topic: Ukraine 3  (Read 163642 times)

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1475 on: December 29, 2022, 10:42:02 pm »
As best as I can tell as a refugee from TOS, there is a point at which fear of the WEF/globalism/Deep State, and/or an extreme fondness for former President Trump, can go around the bend and make Putin/Russia the good guys simply because our current Administration supports Ukraine.

@Maj. Bill Martin

Not true. Our current administration only supports corruption. They,and their RINO accomplices are nothing more than whores for rent.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1476 on: December 29, 2022, 10:44:28 pm »
I guess that raises the question:  Is it possible to be against Sloe Joe's reckless spending in Ukraine and be against Ukranian corruption, yet still greatly desire for Russia to leave Ukraine (including Crimea)?

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1477 on: December 29, 2022, 10:48:01 pm »
What are our national economic and security interests that justify our continued war against Russia @Maj. Bill Martin

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We are at war with Russia?

Since when?
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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1478 on: December 29, 2022, 11:23:33 pm »
Interesting turn of events...

Ukraine's Azov Regiment visits Israel: 'Mariupol is our Masada'

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-725351

A delegation from Ukraine's Azov Regiment visited Israel in recent days, meeting with officials and IDF reservists and speaking about the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine.

The delegation arrived in Israel on Thursday and was led by Azov officer Ilya Samoilenko, one of the soldiers who barricaded themselves beneath the Azovstal steelworks during attempts to protect Mariupol from the Russian invasion earlier this year. Joining him in leading the delegation was Yuliya Fedosyuk, deputy head of the Association of Azovstal Defenders' Families.


Samoilenko was taken prisoner by Russia after weeks under siege in the Azvostal steelworks and was released in a prisoner swap in September.

The delegation came to Israel to advocate for members of the Azov Regiment who are still being held as prisoners, to speak about the defense of the Azovstal plant in Mariupol and to counter Russian reports and statements about the regiment and the ongoing war.

The visit was initiated by the Israeli Friends of Ukraine organization and with the support of the Ukrainian Embassy in Israel and the Nadav Foundation.

(snip)

While the Azov Batallion, the predecessor of the Azov Regiment, was heavily associated with neo-Nazi and far-right symbolism and ideologies, the Azov Regiment today insists that it has largely purged those sentiments from the regiment.

Excerpt
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1479 on: December 29, 2022, 11:59:32 pm »
What are our national economic and security interests that justify our continued war against Russia @Maj. Bill Martin

As others have pointed out, we're not at war with Russia. We're one of many countries supplying weapons and intelligence to the country Russia invaded illegally, but that country, not us, is doing all the fighting.  So, as to the reasons why we should be doing that...how long do you have?

1). A Russian conquest of Ukraine would greatly shorten the warning/preparatory time for a Russian invasion of our Eastern European allies.  That would require us to maintain a greater and more forward-based military presence in Europe to prevent a future shooting war in which we would be involved.  In contrast;

2.  Ukraine is draining Russian military strength at a pace impossible outside of an actual armed conflict.  I'm not sure we've ever gotten a bigger bang for the buck from our military expenditures than what we're seeing right now in Ukraine.  Whenever this war is over, Russia will be a greatly weakened conventional military power, while the strength and resolve of our European NATO allies will be significantly greater.   That actually will let us commit far fewer resources to Europe moving forward than we would have had to otherwise.   And all that happens without the loss of a single American soldier - just a willingness to support people who are willing to fight for their own country.

3.  Our support for Ukraine is a huge deterrent to China or anyone else thinking that we will stand by in the face of aggression.  That deterrence was greatly weekend by our pathetic exit from Afghanistan, which is totally on Biden, and which may in fact have encouraged Russia to think they could get away with this invasion.  Standing firm with Ukraine is the exact signal we needed to send to China to reverse the message of Afghanistan.

4.  If we didn't stand up to Russia, both Russia and China would gain the power of the bully, and be more able to pressure or influence other countries to take economically adverse positions to the United States In the areas of trade, critical resources, etc..  It shows that we still matter on the world stage and can't be pushed around.

5.  The only time Article 5 of the NATO treaty was ever invoked was on our behalf, after we were attacked on 9/11. And in response, a bunch of our NATO allies sent support to help avenge us halfway around the world into Afghanistan.  Though Ukraine was not a NATO member, it's very clear that Russian aggression does pose a threat to those NATO members. So standing by Ukraine is us being a good ally to those same countries that stood by us.

6. Along the same lines, Ukraine itself, despite not being a NATO ally, also sent troops to Afghanistan.  Standing by a country that stood next to us is simply the right and honorable thing to do.

7.  Finally, war is a horrible thing.  Europeans were killing each other for a thousand years until World War II seemingly woke most of them up, and for 75 years, Europe had avoided a large scale war, and was generally at peace .  Just as a matter of basic humanity, that was a good thing.  Until Putin decided that killing his fellow Europeans on a large scale would be a fun thing to do.   There's a special rung in hell reserved for guys like that, and the idea that Russia should gain/profit from this is a moral obscenity.  So, it basically comes down to just fighting evil.  That explains why so many ordinary Europeans, who had become very pacifistic in general , support Ukraine.

Considering what we spend on everything else, and the relatively tiny cost of the expenditures to continue supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia, it's an incredible bargain.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 01:24:00 am by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1480 on: December 30, 2022, 12:05:28 am »
As others have pointed out, we're not at war with Russia. We're one of many countries supplying weapons and intelligence to the country Russia invaded illegally, but that country, not us, is doing all the fighting.  So, as to the reasons why we should be doing that...how long do you have?

1). A Russian conquest of Ukraine would greatly shorten   .  .  .

A most excellent post.  Thank you, @Maj. Bill Martin
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1481 on: December 30, 2022, 12:11:40 am »
As others have pointed out, we're not at war with Russia. We're one of many countries supplying weapons and intelligence to the country Russia invaded illegally, but that country, not us, is doing all the fighting.  So, as to the reasons why we should be doing that...how long do you have?

1). A Russian conquest of Ukraine would greatly shorten the warning/preparatory time for a Russian invasion of our Eastern European allies.  That would require us to maintain a greater and more forward-based military presence in Europe to prevent a future shooting war in which we would be involved.  In contrast;

2.  Ukraine is draining Russian military strength at a pace impossible outside of an actual armed conflict.  I'm not sure we've ever gotten a bigger bang for the buck from our military expenditures than what we're seeing right now in Ukraine.  Whenever this war is over, Russia will be a greatly weakened conventional military power, while the strength and resolve of our European NATO allies will be significantly greater.   That actually will let us commit far fewer resources to Europe moving forward than we would have had to otherwise.   And all that happens without the loss of a single American soldier - just a willingness to support people who are willing to fight for their own country.

3.  Our support for Ukraine is a huge deterrent to China or anyone else thinking that we will stand by in the face of aggression.  That deterrence was greatly weekend by our pathetic exit from Afghanistan, which is totally on Biden, and which may in fact have encouraged Russia to think they could get away with this invasion.  Standing firm with Ukraine is the exact signal we needed to send to China to reverse the message of Afghanistan.

4.  If we didn't stand up to Russia, both Russia and China would gain the power of the bully, and be more able to pressure or influence other countries to take economically adverse positions to the United States In the areas of trade, critical resources, etc..  It shows that we still matter on the world stage and can't be ignored.

5.  The only time Article 5 of the NATO treaty was ever invoked was on our behalf, after we were attacked on 9/11. And in response, a bunch of our NATO allies sent support to help avenge us halfway around the world into Afghanistan.  Though Ukraine was not a NATO member, it's very clear that Russian aggression does pose a threat to those NATO members. So standing by Ukraine is us being a good ally to those same countries that stood by us.

6. Along the same lines, Ukraine itself, despite not being a NATO ally, also sent troops to Afghanistan.  Standing by a country that stood next to us is simply the right and honorable thing to do.

7.  Finally, war is a horrible thing.  Europeans were killing each other for a thousand years until World War II seemingly woke most of them up, and for 75 years, Europe had avoided a large scale war, and was generally at peace .  Until Putin decided that killing his fellow Europeans on a large scale would be a fun thing to do.   There's a special rung in hell reserved for guys like that, and the idea that Russia should gain/profit from this is a moral obscenity.  So, it basically comes down to just fighting evil.  That explains why so many ordinary Europeans, who had become very pacifistic in general , support Ukraine.

Considering what we spend on everything else, and the relatively tiny cost of the expenditures to continue supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia, it's an incredible bargain.

Excellent.

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1482 on: December 30, 2022, 12:32:11 am »
The Ukrainians sent troops to Iraq on OUR behalf too, even though they are not NATO members...

https://www.army.mil/article/15056/ukrainians_complete_mission_in_iraq

Quote
More than 5,000 Ukrainian troops have served in Iraq during Ukraine's five years of service in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

"Enduring peace, stability and prosperity are common values to fight for in the modern world. Your mission in Iraq has been successfully completed," said Viktor Nedopas, Charge d'Affairs of the Ukrainian Embassy in Iraq.

The Ukrainians served as the third-largest Coalition forces contingent in Iraq, with about 1,700 soldiers from 2003-2005.

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Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1483 on: December 30, 2022, 12:38:55 am »
The Ukrainians sent troops to Iraq on OUR behalf too, even though they are not NATO members...

https://www.army.mil/article/15056/ukrainians_complete_mission_in_iraq

Great, but we shouldn't have even sent troops there IMO. Still bitter about that one.

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1484 on: December 30, 2022, 01:07:15 am »
Excellent.

This is why I was pleased to see @Maj. Bill Martin posting!  His analysis is top notch!
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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1485 on: December 30, 2022, 01:10:31 am »
One of the most refreshing things about Trump was his rejection of the neocon agenda.

I remember listening to the 2015 GOP primary candidates in their first debate. They all sounded like they wanted to attack Russia the day after they were elected. Absolutely idiotic IMO. Christie and Carlie Fiorina in particular IIRC.

So IMO we need to toe a careful line here...

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1486 on: December 30, 2022, 01:48:02 am »
I think one of the core problems with the neocon agenda was it amounted to Americans telling people and other countries how we thought they should live.  So it was arguably us imposing our way of life on others.  Too often, it became us fighting other people's battles.

I just don't see that as applying at all in Ukraine. This is one large country invading a smaller country, and the citizens of that smaller country fighting fiercely to keep their independence.  We're not trying to impose our vision on anyone else, nor are we being asked to send our own young people overseas to fight and die.  We're just being asked to give them weapons with which they can defend themselves.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1487 on: December 30, 2022, 02:55:33 am »
As others have pointed out, we're not at war with Russia. We're one of many countries supplying weapons and intelligence to the country Russia invaded illegally, but that country, not us, is doing all the fighting.  So, as to the reasons why we should be doing that...how long do you have?

1). A Russian conquest of Ukraine would greatly shorten the warning/preparatory time for a Russian invasion of our Eastern European allies.  That would require us to maintain a greater and more forward-based military presence in Europe to prevent a future shooting war in which we would be involved.  In contrast;

2.  Ukraine is draining Russian military strength at a pace impossible outside of an actual armed conflict.  I'm not sure we've ever gotten a bigger bang for the buck from our military expenditures than what we're seeing right now in Ukraine.  Whenever this war is over, Russia will be a greatly weakened conventional military power, while the strength and resolve of our European NATO allies will be significantly greater.   That actually will let us commit far fewer resources to Europe moving forward than we would have had to otherwise.   And all that happens without the loss of a single American soldier - just a willingness to support people who are willing to fight for their own country.

3.  Our support for Ukraine is a huge deterrent to China or anyone else thinking that we will stand by in the face of aggression.  That deterrence was greatly weekend by our pathetic exit from Afghanistan, which is totally on Biden, and which may in fact have encouraged Russia to think they could get away with this invasion.  Standing firm with Ukraine is the exact signal we needed to send to China to reverse the message of Afghanistan.

4.  If we didn't stand up to Russia, both Russia and China would gain the power of the bully, and be more able to pressure or influence other countries to take economically adverse positions to the United States In the areas of trade, critical resources, etc..  It shows that we still matter on the world stage and can't be pushed around.

5.  The only time Article 5 of the NATO treaty was ever invoked was on our behalf, after we were attacked on 9/11. And in response, a bunch of our NATO allies sent support to help avenge us halfway around the world into Afghanistan.  Though Ukraine was not a NATO member, it's very clear that Russian aggression does pose a threat to those NATO members. So standing by Ukraine is us being a good ally to those same countries that stood by us.

6. Along the same lines, Ukraine itself, despite not being a NATO ally, also sent troops to Afghanistan.  Standing by a country that stood next to us is simply the right and honorable thing to do.

7.  Finally, war is a horrible thing.  Europeans were killing each other for a thousand years until World War II seemingly woke most of them up, and for 75 years, Europe had avoided a large scale war, and was generally at peace .  Just as a matter of basic humanity, that was a good thing.  Until Putin decided that killing his fellow Europeans on a large scale would be a fun thing to do.   There's a special rung in hell reserved for guys like that, and the idea that Russia should gain/profit from this is a moral obscenity.  So, it basically comes down to just fighting evil.  That explains why so many ordinary Europeans, who had become very pacifistic in general , support Ukraine.

Considering what we spend on everything else, and the relatively tiny cost of the expenditures to continue supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia, it's an incredible bargain.

Frankly, I would like to have one hundredth of a percent of the money we have expended 'not being at war with Russia' since the end of WWII...

...and that does not include the money spent on proxy wars.

That said, I am all in favor of the Russian tide reaching no higher than it has in Ukraine, and await that ebb.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 02:59:33 am by Smokin Joe »
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1488 on: December 30, 2022, 03:35:47 am »
Frankly, I would like to have one hundredth of a percent of the money we have expended 'not being at war with Russia' since the end of WWII...

...and that does not include the money spent on proxy wars.

My thought - which may or may not turn out to be right - is that the way you spend less money preparing to fight wars against Russia is for them to become much less of a threat.

We spent far more on defense when we had to be ready to fight the Soviet Union, which obviously was larger and more powerful than just Russia.  When it eventually fell apart, our spending on defense dropped significantly because we didn't have to spend as much on defense.  So the way I figure it, if the Ukrainians can rip the guts out of Russian conventional forces, that'll mean a second "peace dividend", at least with respect to Europe.

Obviously, we could just abandon Europe and not have to worry about spending anything for it. I'm just not sure that's a good idea.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1489 on: December 30, 2022, 05:05:43 am »
My thought - which may or may not turn out to be right - is that the way you spend less money preparing to fight wars against Russia is for them to become much less of a threat.

We spent far more on defense when we had to be ready to fight the Soviet Union, which obviously was larger and more powerful than just Russia.  When it eventually fell apart, our spending on defense dropped significantly because we didn't have to spend as much on defense.  So the way I figure it, if the Ukrainians can rip the guts out of Russian conventional forces, that'll mean a second "peace dividend", at least with respect to Europe.

Obviously, we could just abandon Europe and not have to worry about spending anything for it. I'm just not sure that's a good idea.
Abandoning Europe isn't a winning long term strategy, in the past, present, or future. We'd just end up going over there and fighting it out again, round three. No thanks.

I am well aware of the fortunes spent developing the high cards in the Arms Race of the '50s, '60s, and '70s, and have been on that periphery one way or another as an observer most of my life, from the days when the F-14 was being tested over at PAX River, to living among the missile fields of North Dakota. I have even been to the 'pyramid' at Nekoma, which spent a lot of money, developed phased array radar systems, but had the plug pulled before the electronics were warm. What was learned was applied elsewhere, not money wasted, and an interesting landmark to boot. But the tremendous expense of that effort is the reason I referred to wanting just a small fraction of that money spent 'not fighting the USSR'--on deterrents, rather than war. It would still be a fortune more than adequate for my needs.

 I am all for the Ukrainians ripping the guts out of the (former?) Soviet Army. Neutralize the threat, by all means (except our troops). Provide the Ukraine the tools they need to fight the fight.

But keep in mind, Russia will rebuild their forces, now with the knowledge of what works, and more importantly, what does not. They will eventually be stronger for it, and that may be under new, more competent management.

Unfortunately, what is unlikely to change is the structure within which that management operates, and that is part of the problem here. The stink of Communism lingers heavily despite all those assurances it was dead, and while the Bolshevik version isn't really gaining ground as well as it might--despite the universities and media embracing it's philosophies and tactics, Chairman Mao's brand is making serious inroads into our society, economy, and hegemony, and has its spies in every research facility and university in the west.

Perhaps the effectiveness of weapons systems we have given Ukraine to deploy will serve as a deterrent to the Chinese, but bet your bottom dollar they are studying every system, capability, and tactic, with eyes toward defeating them all.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1490 on: December 30, 2022, 05:23:05 am »
Thank you for your reply @Maj. Bill Martin  A few thoughts and observations follow.

As others have pointed out, we're not at war with Russia. We're one of many countries supplying weapons and intelligence to the country Russia invaded illegally, but that country, not us, is doing all the fighting. 

If the US Congress was still in the business of declaring war, I would give you this point. But, it's not.  So, what we have is a proxy war with Russia, and the line between this and a direct war is becoming increasingly thin.

Our government from the top down has repeatedly called for a regime change in Russia, even calling for the assassination of its head of state.  Our government has pledged unlimited support in time, money, more and more advanced military hardware and the opposition leader in the Senate has declared this war to be the most important issue in the United States today.  We have directly countered, not on behalf of NATO,  Russian threats with our own specific to nuclear weapons.

We have "advisors" on the ground in Ukraine and US troops placed around Ukraine's borders ----- ready and, apparently, willing to cross them.

Make no mistake about it, this is as much our direct war as it is Russia's.  The difference is we're content, for now, to fill the body bags with Ukrainians.

Quote
1). A Russian conquest of Ukraine would greatly shorten the warning/preparatory time for a Russian invasion of our Eastern European allies.  That would require us to maintain a greater and more forward-based military presence in Europe to prevent a future shooting war in which we would be involved.

I am unconvinced Russia's goal is to reenact Stalin's march through Europe, making your point that follows moot.  IMO, Putin is a Tsarist and he wants two things: not to be boxed in by NATO forces (not unlike our nonnegotiable with the Soviets over Cuba) and to be a respected global player.

Subset goals include a return of Crimea to Russia after Khrushchev just tossed it to Ukraine and an independent Donbas for access to the Black Sea ports.

The same Russia we are now told is our most potent enemy is the same Russia who told Bush he was cancelling war games right after the attacks on 911 and offered assistance with intelligence gathering, ----- that warned us a year before the Boston marathon attack.  Russia also fought ISIS in Syria and has given Israel near carte blanche to enter Syrian airspace to destroy Iranian weapons stored there.

Why is Russia, but not China, enemy number one?

Quote
2.  Ukraine is draining Russian military strength at a pace impossible outside of an actual armed conflict.  I'm not sure we've ever gotten a bigger bang for the buck from our military expenditures than what we're seeing right now in Ukraine.  Whenever this war is over, Russia will be a greatly weakened conventional military power, while the strength and resolve of our European NATO allies will be significantly greater.   That actually will let us commit far fewer resources to Europe moving forward than we would have had to otherwise.   And all that happens without the loss of a single American soldier - just a willingness to support people who are willing to fight for their own country.

Why and when did Russia become a mortal threat that justifies our neck deep involvement?   Are not the WEF and China greater threats to our freedoms?

I mean no disrespect, but nothing you've said remotely addresses the real threats we face in the 21st Century.  It all reads more like passages from a Tom Clancy novel written in the 1980s.

Quote
3.  Our support for Ukraine is a huge deterrent to China or anyone else thinking that we will stand by in the face of aggression.  That deterrence was greatly weekend by our pathetic exit from Afghanistan, which is totally on Biden, and which may in fact have encouraged Russia to think they could get away with this invasion.  Standing firm with Ukraine is the exact signal we needed to send to China to reverse the message of Afghanistan.

Nope.  It looks like you missed this:

" BREAKING: Tony Blinken just said the US couldn’t be supporting Ukraine right now if they were still in Afghanistan and has no ability to support 2 allies at once"  (Video)


https://mobile.twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1607829330729508871

Quote
4.  If we didn't stand up to Russia, both Russia and China would gain the power of the bully, and be more able to pressure or influence other countries to take economically adverse positions to the United States In the areas of trade, critical resources, etc..  It shows that we still matter on the world stage and can't be pushed around.

This has to make China laugh, they own the Biden regime and half of the US Congress.  (Think 21st Century)

Quote
5.  The only time Article 5 of the NATO treaty was ever invoked was on our behalf, after we were attacked on 9/11. And in response, a bunch of our NATO allies sent support to help avenge us halfway around the world into Afghanistan.  Though Ukraine was not a NATO member, it's very clear that Russian aggression does pose a threat to those NATO members. So standing by Ukraine is us being a good ally to those same countries that stood by us.

Using NATO as a threat on behalf of a non-member turns NATO from a defensive alliance into an offensive one.  Are you sure this is what you want?

It's also the most effective way to poke the Bear into action.  Why did we do this?


Quote
6. Along the same lines, Ukraine itself, despite not being a NATO ally, also sent troops to Afghanistan.  Standing by a country that stood next to us is simply the right and honorable thing to do.

Quite different from NATO provoking a war on behalf of a non-member.

Quote
7.  Finally, war is a horrible thing.  Europeans were killing each other for a thousand years until World War II seemingly woke most of them up, and for 75 years, Europe had avoided a large scale war, and was generally at peace .  Just as a matter of basic humanity, that was a good thing.  Until Putin decided that killing his fellow Europeans on a large scale would be a fun thing to do.   There's a special rung in hell reserved for guys like that, and the idea that Russia should gain/profit from this is a moral obscenity.  So, it basically comes down to just fighting evil.  That explains why so many ordinary Europeans, who had become very pacifistic in general , support Ukraine.

This reads as simplistic talking points nestled in 1985 -- not as good enough reasons for our involvement in and escalation of this war.

Quote
Considering what we spend on everything else, and the relatively tiny cost of the expenditures to continue supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia, it's an incredible bargain.

Why are we continuing to advance our economic collapse and deplete our own military readiness for a (proxy) war with Russia?  What is the compelling threat to the United States?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1491 on: December 30, 2022, 05:52:12 am »
The war could stop tomorrow. All that needs to happen is the Russians withdraw and give back the territory they have invaded, and return the Ukrainians who would willingly go home.

Don't forget who started it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1492 on: December 30, 2022, 06:26:18 am »
Ukrainian Artillerists Work Hard To Maintain Old Howitzers From Estonia

Roman Pahulych, Will Tizard  |  December 29, 2022  |  17:15 GMT


Ukrainian gunners have learned to be versatile in their adoption of artillery pieces sent from various nations offering support. Targeting Russian invaders effectively in at least one case means mastering older Estonian-donated howitzers. There are varying maintenance needs and performance differences, with a range of ammunition sources. Finnish shells are favored by Ukrainian gunners in the Zaporizhzhya region, along with American 155-mm rounds.

Video:  https://www.rferl.org/embed/player/0/32199208.html

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-artillery-zaporizhzhya-155mm-howitzer-estonia-american/32199208.html
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1493 on: December 30, 2022, 06:32:08 am »
" BREAKING: Tony Blinken just said the US couldn’t be supporting Ukraine right now if they were still in Afghanistan and has no ability to support 2 allies at once"  (Video)


https://mobile.twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1607829330729508871

Tony Blinken is an idiot with zero military or Defense Dept experience.  He and Avril Haynes are both in bed with Blackstone.  Neither one knows jack shit about US military capabilities.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1494 on: December 30, 2022, 11:52:52 am »
Quote
Frankly, I would like to have one hundredth of a percent of the money we have expended 'not being at war with Russia' since the end of WWII...

...and that does not include the money spent on proxy wars.


Would you take a check delivered by Sugar Plum Faries?

Quote
That said, I am all in favor of the Russian tide reaching no higher than it has in Ukraine, and await that ebb.

ANYTHING that weakens the military might and lessens the agreession of the Neo-Soviets is good for not only world peace,but revived economies. All that money spent on aggressive military action could be better spend on improving education,housing,health care,creating new jobs,etc,etc,etc.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1495 on: December 30, 2022, 12:09:25 pm »
The war could stop tomorrow. All that needs to happen is the Russians withdraw and give back the territory they have invaded, and return the Ukrainians who would willingly go home.

Don't forget who started it.

@Smokin Joe

That is such a simple,basic truth that it looks like a 10 year old could understand it,doesn't it?

Russia stops the invasion and retreats back to Russia,and the war is over.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1496 on: December 30, 2022, 12:40:02 pm »
As others have pointed out, we're not at war with Russia. We're one of many countries supplying weapons and intelligence to the country Russia invaded illegally, but that country, not us, is doing all the fighting.  So, as to the reasons why we should be doing that...how long do you have?

1). A Russian conquest of Ukraine would greatly shorten the warning/preparatory time for a Russian invasion of our Eastern European allies.  That would require us to maintain a greater and more forward-based military presence in Europe to prevent a future shooting war in which we would be involved.  In contrast;

2.  Ukraine is draining Russian military strength at a pace impossible outside of an actual armed conflict.  I'm not sure we've ever gotten a bigger bang for the buck from our military expenditures than what we're seeing right now in Ukraine.  Whenever this war is over, Russia will be a greatly weakened conventional military power, while the strength and resolve of our European NATO allies will be significantly greater.   That actually will let us commit far fewer resources to Europe moving forward than we would have had to otherwise.   And all that happens without the loss of a single American soldier - just a willingness to support people who are willing to fight for their own country.

3.  Our support for Ukraine is a huge deterrent to China or anyone else thinking that we will stand by in the face of aggression.  That deterrence was greatly weekend by our pathetic exit from Afghanistan, which is totally on Biden, and which may in fact have encouraged Russia to think they could get away with this invasion.  Standing firm with Ukraine is the exact signal we needed to send to China to reverse the message of Afghanistan.

4.  If we didn't stand up to Russia, both Russia and China would gain the power of the bully, and be more able to pressure or influence other countries to take economically adverse positions to the United States In the areas of trade, critical resources, etc..  It shows that we still matter on the world stage and can't be pushed around.

5.  The only time Article 5 of the NATO treaty was ever invoked was on our behalf, after we were attacked on 9/11. And in response, a bunch of our NATO allies sent support to help avenge us halfway around the world into Afghanistan.  Though Ukraine was not a NATO member, it's very clear that Russian aggression does pose a threat to those NATO members. So standing by Ukraine is us being a good ally to those same countries that stood by us.

6. Along the same lines, Ukraine itself, despite not being a NATO ally, also sent troops to Afghanistan.  Standing by a country that stood next to us is simply the right and honorable thing to do.

7.  Finally, war is a horrible thing.  Europeans were killing each other for a thousand years until World War II seemingly woke most of them up, and for 75 years, Europe had avoided a large scale war, and was generally at peace .  Just as a matter of basic humanity, that was a good thing.  Until Putin decided that killing his fellow Europeans on a large scale would be a fun thing to do.   There's a special rung in hell reserved for guys like that, and the idea that Russia should gain/profit from this is a moral obscenity.  So, it basically comes down to just fighting evil.  That explains why so many ordinary Europeans, who had become very pacifistic in general , support Ukraine.

Considering what we spend on everything else, and the relatively tiny cost of the expenditures to continue supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia, it's an incredible bargain.


:thumbsup:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1497 on: December 30, 2022, 12:55:32 pm »

Would you take a check delivered by Sugar Plum Faries?

No checks. Bills would be unwieldy, gold too heavy. Bearer Bonds or something of the sort might work.

Quote
ANYTHING that weakens the military might and lessens the agreession of the Neo-Soviets is good for not only world peace,but revived economies. All that money spent on aggressive military action could be better spend on improving education,housing,health care,creating new jobs,etc,etc,etc.

With the current trends in education (woke sh*t, CRT, etc.), housing (the Ritz for illegals, veterans camp on the streets), health care (wanna jab, anyone?), creating new jobs (87,000 ARMED IRS agents),  maybe we'd be better off just paying down the debt.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1498 on: December 30, 2022, 08:14:14 pm »
As fighting near Kreminna continues, Ukraine says Russians have moved out of eastern city to other settlements

Radina Gigova and Olga Viotovych  |  2:16 p.m. ET, December 28, 2022


As fighting near the key Ukrainian city of Kreminna in the eastern Luhansk region continues, Russian civilians who had come to the city have stopped their work and left, Serhiy Hayday, head of the Luhansk region military administration, said Wednesday in a television interview.

"The military command has indeed moved [from Kreminna] to other settlements. All the Russians who came to work, the civilians — doctors, repair teams — they have all stopped their work, all left for the Russian Federation, and all the work that was started is now frozen," Hayday said.
Why Kreminna matters: If the Ukrainian military is able to dislodge the Russians from Kreminna, the Ukrainian military could then proceed in two directions, Hayday said.

"There are two prospects. The first is to go to Starobilsk, which is the logistics center of Luhansk region. Whoever controls Starobilsk will be able to control the entire logistics of the Luhansk region with firepower. In other words, there will be almost no roads left along which the enemy could quietly move either personnel or equipment," Hayday said.

"The second direction is towards Rubizhne and Severodonetsk. This is in order to break the grouping, which is now constantly, round the clock, advancing towards Bakhmut.  .  .

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-12-28-22/index.html
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 3
« Reply #1499 on: December 30, 2022, 08:15:35 pm »
Looks like Russia is making plans to evacuate Kreminna.  Hopefully, Svatove falls as well.  This will greatly complicate Russian logistics.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-