Author Topic: Why Not Polygamy?  (Read 373 times)

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Offline Kamaji

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Why Not Polygamy?
« on: May 28, 2022, 02:33:55 pm »
Why Not Polygamy?

Polygamy is a criminal offense throughout the Western world. Would making it legal be progress?

Cheryl Mendelson
28 May 2022

In the 19th century, Mormon polygamy shocked the American public, and Utah was only granted statehood on the condition that it prohibit it forever. Today, 80 percent of Americans still think it’s wrong according to a 2020 Gallup poll, but that number is trending downwards. In Canada, a 2018 Ipsos poll found that 36 percent of respondents approved of decriminalizing polygamy. Polyamory and polygamy are both gaining mainstream media respect, and are often treated as equivalent, but they aren’t. Legalization of polygamy has long been a cause aided by reality TV and TV dramas. A blog post at the Daily Kos in 2013:

Quote
Rarely does a reality TV show open your eyes to your own prejudices. Sister Wives is that rare exception. Kody Brown and his four wives are fundamental[ist] Mormons living a polygamous lifestyle. Over the past year I’ve watched the Browns marry wife #4, raise their kids, deal with police investigations, and move to Las Vegas. They’ve really changed how I thought about polygamy.

Court cases, including one brought by Kody Brown and his wives, have sought legalization. In 2020, Utah passed a law that decriminalized polygamy, but few voices have been heard wondering if Utah is meeting its obligation to “prohibit” it.

Legalization gets support not only from polygamous religious sects, but also from some scholars, lawyers, philosophers, and cultural critics representing a wide span of political, moral, and religious attitudes. Pop science lends credence to these views by describing monogamy as a bad fit for biological human nature and a potent source of personal misery. Supporters point out that men can have scores of babies by scores of women and walk away, while women can have only a small number of babies—as many with one man as with 20—and must feed and care for them.

Despite the keen interest of the commentariat, public debates about polygamy tend to be disturbingly fact-free, and driven by terminological and other confusions. “Polygamy” refers to any system of plural marriage, polyandrous or polygynous, but polyandry is so rare that for practical purposes polygamy is polygyny. For zoologists, “polygyny” means only that males of a given species mate with more than one female. But when we discuss norms, laws, and social practices, we’re talking about social polygyny. Social polygyny is a set of norms that permit men to be married to many wives at the same time, but restrict women to one husband at a time, as in fundamentalist Mormon practice.

*  *  *

Arguments offered in support of polygyny

Most of us believe that people should be free to live as they please, so long as they’re not hurting anyone else. This conviction is used to support arguments in favor of polygamy like these:

*  *  *

Overall, defenses of polygamy tend to be heavy on doctrinal and constitutional argument, and light on—or dismissive of—facts. However, these arguments must be considered alongside an immense body of empirical evidence. Samples of that evidence can be found here, here, and here, but I will summarize the salient conclusions about polygyny’s effects.

*  *  *

Polygyny treats women and children as means, not ends—means to men’s power, wealth, status, or heavenly reward. It violates the Golden Rule by denying equality to women and by creating one-sided power and privilege. It breaches or refuses the promises inherent in ordinary love between adults—promises to you and you alone. It deprives children and wives of the adequate care and protection that husbands (and wives) owe their families. And supposing even that some husbands could manage to give adequate care and protection to plural wives and many children, they would still act unethically to choose to participate in polygyny—because as a practice it’s harmful and cruel. Would slave-holding be fine for those slave-holders who were truly benevolent? No, because the slave-master relationship is intrinsically evil; and because, extrinsically, the practice engenders additional evils that would be inevitable and irremediable. Yet were self-enslavement rendered legal today in the United States, thousands would instantly do it in exchange for their families’ or children’s medical care or college funds. Even more would be coerced into it by blackmail, force, psychological manipulation, or emotional or mental illness.

More fundamentally, plural marriages lack the dignity of monogamous marriage—gay and straight—because they aren’t, and can’t be, full love relationships. Christian objections to polygyny—by, for example, John Chrysostom, William d’Auvergne, and Thomas Aquinas—rested on polygyny’s harms, not on lewdness, and point out many of the same harms as social scientists do today, from unhappy mateless men to poorly raised and deprived children. But they also focus on one thing that today’s social science usually ignores. They believed that marriage based on love requires monogamy because love requires equality. Polygyny undermines equality between mates, which in turn undermines love and the personal and social goods that flow from marriages based on love.

*  *  *

Source:  https://quillette.com/2022/05/28/why-not-polygamy/


Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2022, 02:35:15 pm »
In short, the author makes a fairly damning case against polygamy - which, based on the evidence, generally ends up meaning polygyny (one man, many women) - based on the evidence, not on the ideological arguments.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2022, 03:02:34 pm »
right off the top of my head:

Two Mothers in Law.

In the divorce, wife 1 gets half, wife 2 gets half....
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2022, 03:07:25 pm »
right off the top of my head:

Two Mothers in Law.

In the divorce, wife 1 gets half, wife 2 gets half....

Those would be some of the other practical negative effects that could be added to the other negative effects listed by the author!

Offline massadvj

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2022, 04:04:46 pm »
Whatever the moral and cultural arguments, the biological argument for polygamy is much stronger than the biological argument for gay marriage.  There is almost no question that men are programed to spread the seed around, and that they are monogamous only because of cultural constraints.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2022, 04:06:55 pm »
Whatever the moral and cultural arguments, the biological argument for polygamy is much stronger than the biological argument for gay marriage.  There is almost no question that men are programed to spread the seed around, and that they are monogamous only because of cultural constraints.

Certainly there is a biological "incentive"; however, there are other contrary biological "incentives" as well.  Spreading the seed around, without assiduously tending the resulting garden, may work really well for mayflies and voles, but it doesn't work out so well for humans and human societies - see Uvalde for an extreme example of what happens when the resulting garden is untended.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2022, 04:28:01 pm »
Certainly there is a biological "incentive"; however, there are other contrary biological "incentives" as well.  Spreading the seed around, without assiduously tending the resulting garden, may work really well for mayflies and voles, but it doesn't work out so well for humans and human societies - see Uvalde for an extreme example of what happens when the resulting garden is untended.

I was not making the case FOR legalized polygamy so much as I was pointing out the feeble argument in favor of gay marriage. But just to play devil's advocate for a minute: wouldn't more gardens be tended if polygamy were legalized?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2022, 04:50:46 pm »
I was not making the case FOR legalized polygamy so much as I was pointing out the feeble argument in favor of gay marriage. But just to play devil's advocate for a minute: wouldn't more gardens be tended if polygamy were legalized?
Not if the gardens were competing for cultivation...

Human nature would have it that the mothers would be competing for their children over the others---they have genetics in the game, too. This would be likely to lead to conflict and dissolution of the unit.

But with inflation going the way it is, it just might take a three income family to pay the bills.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline GtHawk

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2022, 05:14:33 pm »
Whatever the moral and cultural arguments, the biological argument for polygamy is much stronger than the biological argument for gay marriage.  There is almost no question that men are programed to spread the seed around, and that they are monogamous only because of cultural constraints.
Cultural restraints don't exist for homosexuals who(not all) are the most promiscuous animals on the planet.

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2022, 06:29:00 pm »
Romantic inequality—particularly the number of men who are seeking partners compared to the number of women—has skyrocketed dramatically in the past decade alone without legitimized polygamy. Can you imagine how much worse that inequality would become if men were allowed multiple partners at once? The "alpha males" would hoard the supply and leave the rest of us completely excluded.
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2022, 09:46:59 pm »
Because just one woman can drive you batscat crazy, so why be a sadist?

And as said above - mothers-in-law, plural.
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Offline 240B

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2022, 10:25:12 pm »
When I was a young man 20s-30s, it was a dream to go to bed with a whole pack of women.
Now that I am old and sort of, 'out of the race', couldn't imagine having a dozen older women to deal with every day.
What you do as a young man, is your burden as an old man (should you be lucky enough to get there).
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If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
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Offline Idiot

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2022, 10:38:44 pm »
Why Not Polygamy?

Polygamy is a criminal offense throughout the Western world. Would making it legal be progress?

Cheryl Mendelson
28 May 2022

In the 19th century, Mormon polygamy shocked the American public, and Utah was only granted statehood on the condition that it prohibit it forever. Today, 80 percent of Americans still think it’s wrong according to a 2020 Gallup poll, but that number is trending downwards. In Canada, a 2018 Ipsos poll found that 36 percent of respondents approved of decriminalizing polygamy. Polyamory and polygamy are both gaining mainstream media respect, and are often treated as equivalent, but they aren’t. Legalization of polygamy has long been a cause aided by reality TV and TV dramas. A blog post at the Daily Kos in 2013:

Court cases, including one brought by Kody Brown and his wives, have sought legalization. In 2020, Utah passed a law that decriminalized polygamy, but few voices have been heard wondering if Utah is meeting its obligation to “prohibit” it.

Legalization gets support not only from polygamous religious sects, but also from some scholars, lawyers, philosophers, and cultural critics representing a wide span of political, moral, and religious attitudes. Pop science lends credence to these views by describing monogamy as a bad fit for biological human nature and a potent source of personal misery. Supporters point out that men can have scores of babies by scores of women and walk away, while women can have only a small number of babies—as many with one man as with 20—and must feed and care for them.

Despite the keen interest of the commentariat, public debates about polygamy tend to be disturbingly fact-free, and driven by terminological and other confusions. “Polygamy” refers to any system of plural marriage, polyandrous or polygynous, but polyandry is so rare that for practical purposes polygamy is polygyny. For zoologists, “polygyny” means only that males of a given species mate with more than one female. But when we discuss norms, laws, and social practices, we’re talking about social polygyny. Social polygyny is a set of norms that permit men to be married to many wives at the same time, but restrict women to one husband at a time, as in fundamentalist Mormon practice.

*  *  *

Arguments offered in support of polygyny

Most of us believe that people should be free to live as they please, so long as they’re not hurting anyone else. This conviction is used to support arguments in favor of polygamy like these:

*  *  *

Overall, defenses of polygamy tend to be heavy on doctrinal and constitutional argument, and light on—or dismissive of—facts. However, these arguments must be considered alongside an immense body of empirical evidence. Samples of that evidence can be found here, here, and here, but I will summarize the salient conclusions about polygyny’s effects.

*  *  *

Polygyny treats women and children as means, not ends—means to men’s power, wealth, status, or heavenly reward. It violates the Golden Rule by denying equality to women and by creating one-sided power and privilege. It breaches or refuses the promises inherent in ordinary love between adults—promises to you and you alone. It deprives children and wives of the adequate care and protection that husbands (and wives) owe their families. And supposing even that some husbands could manage to give adequate care and protection to plural wives and many children, they would still act unethically to choose to participate in polygyny—because as a practice it’s harmful and cruel. Would slave-holding be fine for those slave-holders who were truly benevolent? No, because the slave-master relationship is intrinsically evil; and because, extrinsically, the practice engenders additional evils that would be inevitable and irremediable. Yet were self-enslavement rendered legal today in the United States, thousands would instantly do it in exchange for their families’ or children’s medical care or college funds. Even more would be coerced into it by blackmail, force, psychological manipulation, or emotional or mental illness.

More fundamentally, plural marriages lack the dignity of monogamous marriage—gay and straight—because they aren’t, and can’t be, full love relationships. Christian objections to polygyny—by, for example, John Chrysostom, William d’Auvergne, and Thomas Aquinas—rested on polygyny’s harms, not on lewdness, and point out many of the same harms as social scientists do today, from unhappy mateless men to poorly raised and deprived children. But they also focus on one thing that today’s social science usually ignores. They believed that marriage based on love requires monogamy because love requires equality. Polygyny undermines equality between mates, which in turn undermines love and the personal and social goods that flow from marriages based on love.

*  *  *

Source:  https://quillette.com/2022/05/28/why-not-polygamy/
I can't handle one....how the heck could I handle 2 or 3....ughhhh.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Why Not Polygamy?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2022, 10:40:14 pm »
@Kamaji

I think it is an excellent idea. Two women will be so busy fighting and arguing with each other for domination that they might even leave the man alone.
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