Author Topic: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre  (Read 1793 times)

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Offline Kamaji

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Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre

The problem is not sneaky entrepreneurs who sell accessories; it's legislators who ban guns based on functionally unimportant features.

JACOB SULLUM
5.16.2022

The suspect in the mass shooting that killed 10 people at a Buffalo grocery store on Saturday used a rifle that was widely described as an "assault weapon." With certain exceptions that don't apply here, that category of firearms is illegal in New York. Yet The New York Times reports that the shooter legally bought the rifle from a gun dealer in Endicott, New York. How is that possible?

It turns out that the rifle, a Bushmaster XM-15 ES, was not an "assault weapon" at the time of the purchase, but it became an "assault weapon" after the shooter tinkered with it. The details of that transformation illustrate how arbitrary and ineffectual bans like New York's are.

Under the New York Secure Ammunition and Firearms Enforcement (NY SAFE) Act, a 2013 law that was hurriedly passed in response to the December 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, "assault weapons" include semi-automatic rifles that accept detachable magazines and have one or more of seven "military-style" features. If we can trust the photograph in the online manifesto attributed to the Buffalo shooter, the rifle he bought had a pistol grip, which is one of the prohibited features. So why was the sale legal?

The manifesto says "the person who had this [rifle] before me" made it compliant with New York law by installing "a Mean Arms magazine lock, which fixed a 10 round magazine" to the gun. The fixed magazine meant that the rifle no longer qualified as an "assault weapon." But the shooter easily reversed that modification so that the rifle could accept detachable magazines, meaning it was once again an "assault weapon" when he used it in the attack.

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Source:  https://reason.com/2022/05/16/why-new-yorks-assault-weapon-ban-didnt-stop-the-buffalo-massacre/

Offline verga

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Neither did the fact that he had been institutionalized, and under the red flag laws should not have allowed him to purchase or own a firearm.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Criminals don't obey laws.  That's why passing more laws doesn't work.
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Offline Kamaji

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Criminals don't obey laws.  That's why passing more laws doesn't work.

So, does that mean that we shouldn't have any criminal laws because, after all, none of the criminals is going to follow them anyways?

Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Laws need to be enforced and criminals need to be prosecuted.

Many existing laws are not adequately enforced and prosecuted.

Adding more laws that won't be enforced nor prosecuted accomplishes nothing.

Unfortunately hate has been a blight upon humanity since Cain and Abel.
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Offline Kamaji

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Laws need to be enforced and criminals need to be prosecuted.

Many existing laws are not adequately enforced and prosecuted.

Adding more laws that won't be enforced nor prosecuted accomplishes nothing.

Unfortunately hate has been a blight upon humanity since Cain and Abel.

Based on the article, however, the laws were not adequate to stop this guy, so new laws may be necessary.

Offline GtHawk

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Wait, he never had had an assault rifle no matter what the idiots say, not before he tinkered with it nor after. Unless...did I miss something, was it select fire capable from single fire to full auto? From what I have read the mentally ill individual used a semi-auto rifle of the SCARY black type that liberals and idiots call assault rifles.

I guess we can expect all of the 2A enemies on the left to start demanding the banning of any semi-auto firearm again. Can't believe they still think this is a winning plan when minorities are buying guns for self defense as fast as they can.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 04:34:32 pm by GtHawk »

Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Maybe the age to purchase firearms, or certain firearms, should be raised to 21.

I'd be more interested in studying the forensic pyschology to understand what pulled or pushed him towards such an extreme.

Most monsters are not born; they are made.  What molded this young man to become a mass murderer?  Where were the adults in his life?  What signs were missed?  Which systems failed to protect the public or were ignored?

In retro-spect, it is realized that many mass murderers develop in an evolutionary manner.  Better understanding the evolutionary process may help identify opportunities for intervention.

He could have driven a vehicle through a pedestrian crowd, set off a pressure cooker bomb, or flown a plane into a building.

The real weapon was the young man's mind; the rifle was just his chosen implement.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 04:38:04 pm by DefiantMassRINO »
Self-Annointed Deplorable Expert Chowderhead Pundit

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Offline verga

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Based on the article, however, the laws were not adequate to stop this guy, so new laws may be necessary.
Nope, the enforcement of the Current laws was insufficient.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Online Smokin Joe

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Maybe the age to purchase firearms, or certain firearms, should be raised to 21.

I'd be more interested in studying the forensic pyschology to understand what pulled or pushed him towards such an extreme.

Most monsters are not born; they are made.  What molded this young man to become a mass murderer?  Where were the adults in his life?  What signs were missed?  Which systems failed to protect the public or were ignored?

In retro-spect, it is realized that many mass murderers develop in an evolutionary manner.  Better understanding the evolutionary process may help identify opportunities for intervention.

He could have driven a vehicle through a pedestrian crowd, set off a pressure cooker bomb, or flown a plane into a building.

The real weapon was the young man's mind; the rifle was just his chosen implement.
Back to you can carry a firearm in warfare, but you can't have one when you get back home?

No, I think that the laws regarding disqualifying parameters for purchasers need to be tightened up as far as enforcement goes, and that might include mental health flags with the NICS. That's a slippery slope.


More laws won't do squat if the current ones aren't enforced.

I seem to have read that the FBI was monitoring or mentoring this fellow, and that might be part of the problem, too.
At some point they had to be aware they had a posturing nutcase with a firearm but typically were busy going after parents who didn't want their kids groomed or sharing bathrooms with kids of another sex at school (no matter what they 'identify' as. )
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2022, 11:04:21 am »
Nope, the enforcement of the Current laws was insufficient.

Nope.  The current laws didn't allow for him to be red-flagged.  The current laws were inadequate.

Offline verga

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2022, 01:24:43 pm »
Nope.  The current laws didn't allow for him to be red-flagged.  The current laws were inadequate.
He was confined to a Mental institution after threatening to kill students at his graduation.
That is the red flag, NYS does have red flag laws, every state does.
Legally he could not posses or purchase one. The laws are there, they were not enforced.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2022, 01:27:02 pm »
Nope.  The current laws didn't allow for him to be red-flagged.  The current laws were inadequate.
Red flag laws are dangerous. Not for the criminal but for anyone who is at the mercy of being defined as a nutcase.
Who sets the standard?
Those standards can become arbitrary and capricious overnight, sweeping large numbers of perfectly fine people up with a couple of nuts, and those people will be required to prove they are not crazy against a hostile battery of accusers who could make something as simple as registering Republican a disqualifier.
The Buffalo shooter talked his way out of a psych eval, despite being flagged, and no one followed up.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2022, 02:15:50 pm »
He was confined to a Mental institution after threatening to kill students at his graduation.
That is the red flag, NYS does have red flag laws, every state does.
Legally he could not posses or purchase one. The laws are there, they were not enforced.


No, that was not sufficient.  Action had to be taken to trigger a red-flag listing, and that action was apparently not taken.  If someone is such an apparent risk as he was - he was actually taken in for observation - the red-flagging should be automatic until and unless the individual in question petitions a court to have the red-flag designation lifted.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2022, 02:17:13 pm »
Red flag laws are dangerous. Not for the criminal but for anyone who is at the mercy of being defined as a nutcase.
Who sets the standard?
Those standards can become arbitrary and capricious overnight, sweeping large numbers of perfectly fine people up with a couple of nuts, and those people will be required to prove they are not crazy against a hostile battery of accusers who could make something as simple as registering Republican a disqualifier.
The Buffalo shooter talked his way out of a psych eval, despite being flagged, and no one followed up.


He didn't talk his way out of it.  He was determined not to be an immediate threat to himself.  The cops appear to have dropped the ball by not following up with the red-flag designation and, basically, washing their hands of the whole affair.

One can argue around the edges, but this guy was a clear smack-dab-in-the-middle case for red-flagging.

Offline verga

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2022, 02:49:29 pm »

No, that was not sufficient.  Action had to be taken to trigger a red-flag listing, and that action was apparently not taken.  If someone is such an apparent risk as he was - he was actually taken in for observation - the red-flagging should be automatic until and unless the individual in question petitions a court to have the red-flag designation lifted.
The action was taken. HE WAS CONFINED TO A MENTAL HOSPITAL. He lied on the form.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2022, 02:50:15 pm »
The action was taken. HE WAS CONFINED TO A MENTAL HOSPITAL. He lied on the form.

No, that was not sufficient to trigger a red-flag identification.

Offline verga

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2022, 03:04:00 pm »
No, that was not sufficient to trigger a red-flag identification.
You are dead wrong. My wife is diagnosed as Bipolar manic. She has been confined. By LAW she may not purchase of posses a firearm. If she tries to purchase one, she would have to lie on the form where it asks about mental illness. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? He had to lie on the form to purchase one.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2022, 03:06:21 pm »
You are dead wrong. My wife is diagnosed as Bipolar manic. She has been confined. By LAW she may not purchase of posses a firearm. If she tries to purchase one, she would have to lie on the form where it asks about mental illness. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? He had to lie on the form to purchase one.

I understand perfectly.  You seem to think the red-flag system is solely one of voluntary compliance; it is not.  The point of red-flag laws is to catch those who lie by having a record in their background check that comes up with a "red flag" warning, notwithstanding what they put on their application.

Yes he lied - obviously - but the red-flag system failed to catch that lie because his confinement was not required to be registered since nobody - school, hospital, or police, appear to have taken the steps to make it official.

Offline verga

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2022, 03:08:24 pm »
I understand perfectly.  You seem to think the red-flag system is solely one of voluntary compliance; it is not.  The point of red-flag laws is to catch those who lie by having a record in their background check that comes up with a "red flag" warning, notwithstanding what they put on their application.

Yes he lied - obviously - but the red-flag system failed to catch that lie because his confinement was not required to be registered since nobody - school, hospital, or police, appear to have taken the steps to make it official.
Hospitals and Mental hospitals  are required to notify. If they did not that is on them. ALL 50 states have this in place.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2022, 03:13:10 pm »
Hospitals and Mental hospitals  are required to notify. If they did not that is on them. ALL 50 states have this in place.

The point is that it wasn't reported, which was the point I was making all along.  Apparently, they concluded, for whatever reason, that it didn't need to be reported.  That discretion should be removed, and it should always be reported until and unless the individual in question can convince a court to remove the red-flag.

Offline verga

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2022, 08:39:17 pm »
The point is that it wasn't reported, which was the point I was making all along.  Apparently, they concluded, for whatever reason, that it didn't need to be reported.  That discretion should be removed, and it should always be reported until and unless the individual in question can convince a court to remove the red-flag.
For the love of God it is not discretionary. They are required by LAW to report this. If you are committed (involuntary confinement) the agency is required by LAW to report it.
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2022, 08:48:43 pm »
For the love of God it is not discretionary. They are required by LAW to report this. If you are committed (involuntary confinement) the agency is required by LAW to report it.

For the love of God, cite to the statute that requires such registration, because everything I am seeing says that it is not mandatory or automatic under NY's red flag law.

Rather than getting offensive and insulting, perhaps you can cite to legal authority?

Offline verga

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2022, 08:57:31 pm »
For the love of God, cite to the statute that requires such registration, because everything I am seeing says that it is not mandatory or automatic under NY's red flag law.

Rather than getting offensive and insulting, perhaps you can cite to legal authority?
https://nics.ny.gov/docs/guidance.pdf
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
�More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.�-Woody Allen
If God invented marathons to keep people from doing anything more stupid, the triathlon must have taken him completely by surprise.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Why New York's 'Assault Weapon' Ban Didn't Stop the Buffalo Massacre
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2022, 09:20:52 pm »
https://nics.ny.gov/docs/guidance.pdf


And quite clearly, that standard contains discretion, because it requires the health professional to determine whether the individual is “likely to engage in conduct that will cause serious harm to self or others.”

The hospital apparently decided that he did not meet that standard, and therefore no reporting was required.