Ukraine 2

[libertybele]

@libertybele


He is a prize-winning fool,as well as a career thief and traitor to America,but his only involvement in the War in Ukraine came long after the war started,and even then it was only to get a cut of the money going there. Truth to tell,he should be arrested for treason,put on trial,and executed when found guilty.  Which really has nothing to do with Russia invading Ukraine.

@sneakypete Joe was dealing with Ukraine when he was VP., (I posted his address to the Ukraine up thread). You are absolutely correct. He indeed is a traitor to our country and where we differ in opinion is some of that does have to do with Russia invading Ukraine. I believe he goaded Putin somehow into escalating the war, be it making false promises, or making threats. Joe is after all known for his stupidity, incompetency and superiority complexes, or maybe perhaps it was just Putin seizing an opportunity after he saw how Joe absolutely failed in Afghanistan.

Z has received billions of dollars from us and the West along with munitions.  I think that the U.S. has contributed plenty and the last thing that I want to see is American boots on the ground -- WWIII for sure.  Again, it truly isn't our fight.

[Hoodat]

The conflict between Ukraine and Russia did begin to escalate in 2014.

Correct.  Russia's invasion began in February 2014 following the Maidan Revolution which drove Russian puppet Viktor Yanukovych out of office.

(with U.S. involvement).

False.

The impeachment of Yanukovych which took place almost four months before Poroshenko was elected.  So no, there was no US involvement whatsoever with Russia's February 2014 invasion.

[Hoodat]

The fact this photo even exists tells me everything I need to know about Ukraine's thorough corruption.

The fact this photo even exists tells me everything I need to know about Trump's thorough corruption.



(See how stupid that sounds?)

[Hoodat]

It was the Ukranians that ended the Minsk Agreement.

Termination

On 19 September 2018, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed a decree not to extend the treaty.

False.  On that date, Poroshenko signed a decree "Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation, signed on May 31, 1997."  - https://english.pravda.ru/news/world/141600-russia_ukraine_friendship/

This had zero to do with the Minsk agreement, a treaty that Russia was in clear violation of.

[Hoodat]

I can't help but wonder how many of those Russians were 'attacked' over the years by Ukraine?

Instead of 'wondering', why not dig up some actual evidence that shows it?  I am sick and tired of people offering claims on this board that have no basis in fact.

Bottom line, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych betrayed his own country by taking a huge bribe from Putin and sabotaging Ukraine's entry into the EU.  Because of this, Yanukovych was driven from office.  IMMEDIATELY after that happened, Russia invaded.

Putin sent special forces into Ukraine to save Yanukovych from being arrested.  He has spent the last eight years living in exile in Russia as a guest of Putin.  When the assault on Kiev began in February of this year, Yanukovych was in Minsk, awaiting to be installed as the new Ukrainian (puppet) leader once Kiev fell and Zelenskiy was killed.

[Hoodat]

We are holding on, say Mykolaiv residents

Laura Bicker - BBC, Mykolaiv  |  1 day ago


Liudmyla hugs her youngest children goodbye

There is shelling every day in Mykolaiv. The Russians are on the outskirts to the east and south, pummelling surrounding villages and forcing thousands to flee.

The wail of the air raid siren is a prelude to a thud to our right as our car makes its way through the suburbs of this major port.

A plume of smoke a few kilometres away confirms the hit - another rocket.

We are following a Ukrainian Red Cross van as they try to rescue some of those coming under regular shelling: yet another busload to add to the already historic human exodus from this country.

These farewells have become a familiar sight across Ukraine over the last 100 days, but they are no less heartbreaking to watch.

Liudmyla has decided it is time for her youngest children to leave. She can't let them play outside as the bombardment continues and she wants them to be somewhere safe.

She holds on to them as long as she can, one under each arm, until it is time to go. Then it is too much. She turns her back and sobs as they leave.

"I will see them again when the bombing stops," she tells me. But no-one knows when that will be.

Mykolaiv was one of the first cities attacked when the invasion began. Russian forces came close to the city limits but were pushed back.  .  .  .

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61687586


Russia continues its wanton bombardment of Ukrainian civilians.

[DCPatriot]

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/06/u-s-officials-admit-lied-ukraine-success-russian-failures/

U.S. Officials Admit They Have Lied About Ukraine Success and Russian Failures

[Smokin Joe]

Oh, so Mexico gets Texas back because a large number of Latinos live there. Is that how that works?

Give Quebec back to the French!

[Smokin Joe]

@sneakypete Joe was dealing with Ukraine when he was VP., (I posted his address to the Ukraine up thread). You are absolutely correct. He indeed is a traitor to our country and where we differ in opinion is some of that does have to do with Russia invading Ukraine. I believe he goaded Putin somehow into escalating the war, be it making false promises, or making threats. Joe is after all known for his stupidity, incompetency and superiority complexes, or maybe perhaps it was just Putin seizing an opportunity after he saw how Joe absolutely failed in Afghanistan.

Z has received billions of dollars from us and the West along with munitions.  I think that the U.S. has contributed plenty and the last thing that I want to see is American boots on the ground -- WWIII for sure.  Again, it truly isn't our fight.

Has he? Munitions to some extent, certainly from EU/NATO, but the US has held some of those transfers up, and as for the money Biden has pledged, where is the accounting?

[sneakypete]

Has he? Munitions to some extent, certainly from EU/NATO, but the US has held some of those transfers up, and as for the money Biden has pledged, where is the accounting?

@Smokin Joe

It's called "skimming",and generally everybody involved in that particular"food chain" gets a "felony taste" to make sure they never talk about it. In cases like this,even a small "taste" can add up to serious money because we are talking about Billions of dollars.

[bilo]

The demographics of Ukraine; according to the census result the population of the Crimean Federal District is 2.2844 million people. The ethnic composition is as follows: Russians: 1.49 million (65.3%), Ukrainians: 0.35 million (15.1%), Crimean Tatars: 0.24 million (12.0%).

So what.

The demographics in Texas are changing does that mean it should be given back to Mexico?

[bilo]

No, Mexico and Texas have nothing to do with Ukraine. 

So, we'll just displace all the Russians in the area?? I can't help but wonder how many of those Russians were 'attacked' over the years by Ukraine? 

Again, not picking sides, just thinking of the innocent people that are caught up in an obviously very political and ugly war that has  been going on for years. Also, again, Joe is far from innocent.

@DB

It is hard to discuss big topics if posters aren't capable of applying their points across the board.

You are absolutely right demographics are irrelevant. Ukraine was recognized as a sovereign nation after the end of the cold war. Ukraine was attacked by Russia. Russia is the evil party in this war. If we want to stop this type of aggression from getting to the point where US troops are directly confronting Russian troops the place is Ukraine. The appeasement crowd doesn't want to understand this for some reason.

[sneakypete]

@DB

  The appeasement crowd doesn't want to understand this for some reason.

@DB

They will never admit it,not even to themselves,but it can be summed up as "Better Red than dead."

Surrender Monkeys.

[libertybele]

@DB

It is hard to discuss big topics if posters aren't capable of applying their points across the board.

You are absolutely right demographics are irrelevant. Ukraine was recognized as a sovereign nation after the end of the cold war. Ukraine was attacked by Russia. Russia is the evil party in this war. If we want to stop this type of aggression from getting to the point where US troops are directly confronting Russian troops the place is Ukraine. The appeasement crowd doesn't want to understand this for some reason.

I am not posting "opinion" rather I am posting facts, and I have provided links. Whether or not you opt to read them is entirely up to you and certainly you don't have to agree.

Also, I am NOT appeasing either side and I too would like for the aggression to stop on both sides. What is happening is horrific. However, I also realize that the reality of the situation is that this has been an on going war for years with corruption from within on both sides as well as corruption from the U.S., UN and NATO.

To label and categorize posters in here does very little good to keep this debate issue from going haywire.

[Hoodat]

I am not posting "opinion" rather I am posting facts, and I have provided links.

Again:

It was the Ukranians that ended the Minsk Agreement.

Termination

On 19 September 2018, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed a decree not to extend the treaty.

False.  On that date, Poroshenko signed a decree ending the "Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation, signed on May 31, 1997."  - https://english.pravda.ru/news/world/141600-russia_ukraine_friendship/

This had zero to do with the Minsk agreement, a treaty that Russia was in clear violation of.

[libertybele]

Again:

False.  On that date, Poroshenko signed a decree "Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation, signed on May 31, 1997."  - https://english.pravda.ru/news/world/141600-russia_ukraine_friendship/

This had zero to do with the Minsk agreement, a treaty that Russia was in clear violation of.

The Minsk Agreement was signed on  December 8, 1991.

https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/the-end-of-the-soviet-union/the-end-of-the-soviet-union-texts/minsk-agreement/

Source: Library of Congress, Country Studies, 2008.

----------------

Kiev officially admits violating Minsk agreements — LPR envoy


In accordance with additional ceasefire control measures, in effect since July 27, 2020, the sides are prohibited from using unmanned aerial vehicles in the vicinity of the line of contact

LUGANSK, October 27. /TASS/. The armed forces of Ukraine have officially admitted violating the Minsk Agreements on Ukrainian reconciliation by using a Turkish-made Bayraktar drone in the east of the country, a diplomat of the self-proclaimed Lugansk People’s Republic (LPR) has said.

"The Ukrainian military declare in a deliberate and even demonstrative fashion that they are violating the Minsk Agreements," said Rodion Miroshnik, who represents the self-proclaimed Lugansk People’s Republic in the Contact Group’s political subgroup. "In September 2014, Kiev signed a memorandum envisaging a straightforward ban on flights of combat aviation and foreign unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). But [Ukrainian Armed Forces Commander Valery] Zaluzhny is reporting flights and even combat use of UAVs along the line of contact. Therefore, he just does not give a damn about Kiev’s obligations under the Minsk Agreements."..............

https://tass.com/world/1354451?utm_source=google.com&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=google.com&utm_referrer=google.com

[Hoodat]

The Minsk Agreement was signed on  December 8, 1991.

https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/the-end-of-the-soviet-union/the-end-of-the-soviet-union-texts/minsk-agreement/

Source: Library of Congress, Country Studies, 2008.

For the third time, the treaty that Poroshenko terminated in 2018 was the "Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation", signed in 1997.  That is a completely different treaty from the Minsk Agreement.  Your claim that Poroshenko terminated the Minsk Agreement in 2018 is plainly false.

[libertybele]

For the third time, the treaty that Poroshenko terminated in 2018 was the "Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation", signed in 1997.  That is a completely different treaty from the Minsk Agreement.  Your claim that Poroshenko terminated the Minsk Agreement in 2018 is plainly false.

Thank you @Hoodat I stand corrected .... obviously I was confusing and combining the two agreements. Yes, Poroshenko terminated the "Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership",  and yes, Ukraine ended the Minsk agreement as indicated above.

[Hoodat]

The Minsk Agreement was signed on  December 8, 1991.

https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/the-end-of-the-soviet-union/the-end-of-the-soviet-union-texts/minsk-agreement/

Source: Library of Congress, Country Studies, 2008.

Also, the Minsk Agreement from 1991 is about the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the establishment of Belarus and Ukraine as separate nations.  It has nothing to do with the 2014 Minsk Agreement in response to Russia's 2014 incursion into Ukraine.  It was signed on Sept 14, 2014.

Before the ink was even dry, Russian puppet separatist leader Alexander Zakharchenko vowed to retake territory lost to Ukraine in the preceding months, in clear violation of the agreement he signed.  And the rest is history.

[Hoodat]

and yes, Ukraine ended the Minsk agreement as indicated above.

You are looking at the wrong Minsk Agreement.  Try this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements

[libertybele]

You are looking at the wrong Minsk Agreement.  Try this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements

My point is BOTH sides have violated past agreements; not so much how they play into the current escalation. 

What I continue to state is that I believe (yes, it is my opinion) that something triggered or provoked Putin into escalating this war to the degree that he has and I believe it has to do with Joe and U.S. involvement with Ukraine, or UN, or NATO or all three.  Joe takes office, states that he feels Putin is going to escalate the war and voila he gives Z $$$ while making the statements even before Putin strikes and next thing we know Putin is relentless in attacking Ukraine.  Too much of a coincidence. 

Neither side is completely innocent. Above all, I feel for the Ukrainian and Russian people who have been caught up in this web of politics and battles for years.

[Hoodat]

What I continue to state is that I believe (yes, it is my opinion) that something triggered or provoked Putin into escalating this war to the degree that he has and I believe it has to do with Joe and U.S. involvement with Ukraine, or UN, or NATO or all three.

The event that 'encouraged' Putin to invade was Biden's debacle in Afghanistan and his betrayal of our NATO allies last summer.

Joe takes office, states that he feels Putin is going to escalate the war and voila he gives Z $$$ while making the statements even before Putin strikes and next thing we know Putin is relentless in attacking Ukraine.  Too much of a coincidence.

Coincidence?  There's not even a connection.  Do you really believe Putin invaded Ukraine based on a statement Biden made?  If so, what was that statement?  Please post it.

Neither side is completely innocent. Above all, I feel for the Ukrainian and Russian people who have been caught up in this web of politics and battles for years.

When you see Ukraine engaging in the orderly destruction of civilian areas from Russian city to Russian city, the execution of Ukrainian civilians, the rape of Ukrainian women, and the forced relocation of the Ukrainian people into Soviet-style gulags, then please let me know.  Until then, don't try to draw some type of moral equivalency between Ukraine's action and Russia's.

[libertybele]

The event that 'encouraged' Putin to invade was Biden's debacle in Afghanistan and his betrayal of our NATO allies last summer.


Coincidence?  There's not even a connection.  Do you really believe Putin invaded Ukraine based on a statement Biden made?  If so, what was that statement?  Please post it.


When you see Ukraine engaging in the orderly destruction of civilian areas from Russian city to Russian city, the execution of Ukrainian civilians, the rape of Ukrainian women, and the forced relocation of the Ukrainian people into Soviet-style gulags, then please let me know.  Until then, don't try to draw some type of moral equivalency between Ukraine's action and Russia's.

Seriously @Hoodat AGAIN, I am NOT trying to draw any type of moral equivalency between Ukraine and Russia.  None.

If you go back and read my post, you will see that I stated, that Joe made comments about Putin getting ready to escalate the war.  If you want a link -- here it is.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/18/us/politics/biden-ukraine-russia.html

If you are of the opinion that there is no connection and that Joe has no monkey in this war, so be it.

Enough said.

Quite frankly, I'm more interested in us NOT becoming more involved.  I am also extremely concerned about the crisis at our border. We could easily take a couple of billion that we gave Ukraine and build a very strong and protective wall securing our country.

[Hoodat]

Ukrainian MacGyver shows his solution to firing 82mm mortar rounds from an RPG-7 using an axe and a flex for the modification.  https://libreddit.manerakai.com/r/ukraine/comments/v4qk06/ukrainian_macgyver_shows_his_solution_to_firing/

Don't try this at home, kids.

[Hoodat]

If you go back and read my post, you will see that I stated, that Joe made comments about Putin getting ready to escalate the war.  If you want a link -- here it is.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/18/us/politics/biden-ukraine-russia.html

Biden made that statement after months of preparation by the Russian Army.  It is disingenuous to blame months of preparation and deployment of an invasion army on a statement made AFTER those plans had already been implemented.

If you are of the opinion that there is no connection and that Joe has no monkey in this war, so be it.

Enough said.

I have already stated numerous times that Biden's incompetent debacle in Afghanistan is what gave Putin the green light.  Did Biden screw up Afghanistan and betray our NATO allies for the expressed purpose of prodding Putin to invade Ukraine?  No, there is zero evidence to support this.  Putin decided to go for the full scale invasion now because he knew Biden would do little or nothing to stop it.  And so far, Putin has been proven right.

Quite frankly, I'm more interested in us NOT becoming more involved.

As am I.  It has been my position from Day One.  And the best way to keep US (and NATO) troops out of harms way for the next 20 years is to dish up a decisive defeat for the Russian Army at the hands of a well-armed Ukrainian military.  Unfortunately, Joe Biden is the biggest obstacle to that occurring.