Ukraine 2

[Hoodat]

No.  I refer to the Western Ukranians who joined with Nazi Germany in the killing of Ukranian Jews and fighting against Russia's victory.

There weren't that many Jews left living in Ukraine once the Germans arrived.  Stalin had already killed most of them.

[Right_in_Virginia]

lol

Excuse me, but I don't understand what you're laughing at.

If you remember Russia was fighting on our side against Nazi Germany ----  then it makes sense that had Western Ukraine wanted to repel, not join, Nazi Germany ---- Russia would have helped them win militarily.  All Western Ukraine did was make Russia's job against the nazi's more difficult.

[Mod2]

Let's back on the topic of current events in Ukraine, thanks.

[Kamaji]

There weren't that many Jews left living in Ukraine once the Germans arrived.  Stalin had already killed most of them.

Yup.  As per the communist doctrine, Jews were supposed to assimilate into the broader population - i.e., give up their Jewishness - and those who did not were killed.  There is precious little difference between the German nazis and the Soviet communists, and one of their commonalities was their hatred of Jews - even though there were Jews in the original Bolsheviks - and their blood thirst.

[Cyber Liberty]

I'm going to start deleting post that stray off into "Thread One" land. You know who you are.

Not locking it this time!

[Hoodat]

The children's camp that became an execution ground

Sarah Rainsford - BBC, Bucha  |  1 day ago


Since Russian forces were pushed back from Kyiv at the end of March, the bodies of more than 1,000 civilians have been discovered in the Bucha region - many hastily buried in shallow graves. The BBC has learned that around 650 people were shot in what a senior police official has described as executions. Sarah Rainsford has been investigating what happened at a children's summer camp - now being treated as a crime scene.


It is easy to miss the killing spot at first in the gloom. But in a cold, damp basement on the edge of the woods that made Bucha a popular get-away spot before the war, five Ukrainian men were forced to their knees and shot in the head.

To the right of the entrance, there are stones coated in blood that has turned dark red. Lying among that is a blue woollen hat with an exit hole in one side and its rim soaked in blood. In the wall, I counted at least a dozen bullet holes.A couple of steps away are the remains of a Russian military ration pack - an open can of rice porridge with beef and an empty packet of crackers. A name daubed in graffiti on a wall is a reminder that the scene is a children's camp. But when Russian troops moved into Bucha, just outside the capital, in early March, Camp Radiant became an execution ground.

The story of the summer camp killings is chilling but so is this detail: more than 1,000 civilians were killed in the Bucha region during a month under Russian occupation, but most did not die from shrapnel or shelling. More than 650 were shot dead by Russian soldiers, according to a senior police official.

Now Ukraine is searching for their killers.  .  .  .

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61442387

[Hoodat]

Low-flying Ukrainian Su-25 fighters.  This was shot 2 or 3 days ago.  It is encouraging to see Ukrainian aircraft providing ground support on the front lines.

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a41VP8v_460svvp9.webm

[Hoodat]

[DefiantMassRINO]

Some Ukrainians initially greeted the Germans as liberators AFTER Stalin tried to starve them out of existence and Russify territory within the Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic.

The Ukrainians sufferred and died en masse at the hands of both Hitler and Stalin.

Putin is demagouging Ukrainians as Nazi's becuase they have the audacity to stand up to his plans to conquer, subjugate, and colonize their country.

Europe is haunted by the spectres of its failed empires and the desire of aspiring tyrants to recreate them.  Ukrainians are defending themselves and their country from Putin's desire to recreate the Russian Empire / Soviet Empire.

Russia has the resources to be a peaceful and prosperous nation, but it languishes under the yoke of Putin and his enablers.

[Right_in_Virginia]

" i don't think the pope was involved in federal penitentiary service vehicles transporting the azovstal soldiers to a POW camp in russia"  (Video)

https://mobile.twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1526528654192304130

"Zelensky: "The evacuation mission from Azovstal continues. It is led by our military and intelligence."

Uhhh... They're being brought to prisons in Donetsk and Rostov in paddy wagons..."  (Video)

https://mobile.twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1526683778868977666

[Right_in_Virginia]

Russians With Attitude
@RWApodcast

Nationalist Ukrainian bloggers complaining about Russia having the audacity to take Azov prisoner instead of evacuating them to Ukrainian territory, nationalist Russian bloggers complaining about Russia having the audacity to take Azov prisoner instead of shooting them on sight

5:48 PM · May 17, 2022·Twitter Web App

[Right_in_Virginia]

Russians With Attitude
@RWApodcast

Nationalist Ukrainian bloggers complaining about Russia having the audacity to take Azov prisoner instead of evacuating them to Ukrainian territory, nationalist Russian bloggers complaining about Russia having the audacity to take Azov prisoner instead of shooting them on sight

5:48 PM · May 17, 2022·Twitter Web App

 

Gervasio
@GAruspice

Replying to @RWApodcast

Western bloggers not complaining since they think Azovites are being escorted to Kiev by Elon Musk thanks to the efforts of Zelensky and the Pope.

5:51 PM · May 17, 2022·Twitter for Android

[Kamaji]

Ignorant Putin is leading Russia to destruction, writes ex-Yeltsin defence aide ALEXANDER TEMERKO

By Alexander Temerko For The Daily Mail
17 May 2022

A vast superpower with a proud Communist history launches a brutal war on its far smaller neighbour, sending thousands of troops over the border.

The objective is the utter humiliation of that country — its demilitarisation, as well as regime change and a complete overhaul of its political structure so that it becomes a client state.

I am not talking here about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. This brutal assault across national boundaries took place more than 40 years ago when China invaded Vietnam.

But the parallels between the two wars are uncanny and, as I shall explain, they hold a vital lesson for president Putin. One that he is steadfastly — and very foolishly — ignoring.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10826943/Ignorant-Putin-leading-Russia-destruction-writes-ex-Yeltsin-defence-aide-ALEXANDER-TEMERKO.html

[DB]

"Zelensky: "The evacuation mission from Azovstal continues. It is led by our military and intelligence."

Uhhh... They're being brought to prisons in Donetsk and Rostov in paddy wagons..."  (Video)

https://mobile.twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1526683778868977666

Strange, this doesn't match what you've been posting:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10826761/Russia-accused-double-crossing-Ukraine-deal-free-Azovstal-steelworks-fighters.html

[Right_in_Virginia]

Strange, this doesn't match what you've been posting:

Yes, it does.  I also reposted  some of what I posted previously about this.

In a nutshell:  Even though Western journalists aren't permitted to say it:  Azov is an unconditional surrender with the wounded taken to Donbas regional hospitals until well enough to travel to Russia to join the other POWs.

Hope this helps @DB

[240B]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqLiI3198Cc

[Hoodat]

Strange, this doesn't match what you've been posting:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10826761/Russia-accused-double-crossing-Ukraine-deal-free-Azovstal-steelworks-fighters.html

Not surprising, since RWA is a Russian propaganda site.

[Hoodat]

Russia claims 265 Ukrainian soldiers 'surrender' at Mariupol steelworks

The soldiers had been the last remaining pocket of resistance in the southern city as the Russians closed in. Over 82 days, they battled severe shortages of food, water, ammunition, medicine and electricity.

Sharon Marris  |  17 May 2022  |  21:52, UK

Russia has claimed more than 250 Ukrainian fighters who were holed up in the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol have surrendered.

"Over the past 24 hours, 265 militants have laid down their arms and surrendered, including 51 seriously wounded," its defence ministry said on Tuesday.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said President Putin had guaranteed the Ukrainian fighters would be treated "in accordance with international standards".

It comes after Ukraine's military said it was working to evacuate all remaining troops from their last stronghold in the besieged port city.

It is not known how many - if any - Ukrainian fighters are still in the steelworks.

Ukraine's deputy defence minister, Hanna Malyar, earlier said those who needed medical treatment were taken to a hospital in the Russian-controlled town of Novoazovsk, about 30 miles east of Mariupol.

Others were being taken to Olenivka, about 55 miles north, through humanitarian corridors, she said, adding that they would be exchanged with Russian military prisoners before returning home.  .  .

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-russia-claims-265-ukrainian-soldiers-surrender-at-mariupol-steelworks-12614910

[Smokin Joe]

I don't believe this for a second.  Putin was quite open with his contempt for anything Ukrainian.  At no point did he envision free independent Donbas states, but instead pushed for the total subjugation of the entire country.  Drug addicts, indeed.

Adolf made the same mistake dealing with the Slavs in general...His contempt for the peoples led him to underestimate their ability to fight back, much less mount an offensive, even if the tactics were to build barricades of their own soldiers' bodies around the advancing Nazis.

Putin's contempt for Ukrainians, a holdover from Stalinesque attitudes expressed during the Holodomor for Ukrainians, may well have blinded him to their tenacity, courage, and determination to keep Ukraine separate from Russia.

[Smokin Joe]

Their cards are face up on the table now. And their illusion of military capability has been laid bare for all to see. I wonder what China is thinking right now...

How do you say "Eeny, meeny, miney, moe..." in Chinese?

[Smokin Joe]

Please, do NOT conflate Ukrainian nazis with American right wing conservatives ... ever.  It would demonstrate a dangerous misunderstanding of both.  While such a mistake would save the nazis, it would be a death blow to American conservatives.

Wait, whoa. "our" Communists call anyone to the Right of Lenin a "Nazi" too. How convenient that anyone who disagrees with them is automatically a "Nazi" or the extended version, a "Neo-Nazi White Supremacist" (kinda like Larry Elder).

Dealing with the Enemy, Propaganda 101: You label them as something less than human in the eyes of your populace. For Russians, It's Nazis (Great Patriotic War), for the "Woke", It's "White Supremacist/Neo-Nazi", for ordinary "moderate Democrats" it's "Right Winged Extremist"...and the beat goes on. "Nips", "Huns", "Dinks", "Gooks", "Hajis", etc., by no means an exhaustive list), have been used by our own propagandists during wartime, too. 
These stereotypes will be reinforced with political cartoons and images purporting to be in support of the stereotype, all in the interest of getting an entire population riled up.

For Ukrainians, "Communists" (as in Stalinist Communists) will evoke national memories of millions of Ukrainians forcibly starved by the Soviets in the 30s to save face for the government in Moscow when Soviet farming policies failed miserably, and now, "Russian" might be sufficient.

There is or will be a derogatory term for virtually any enemy used by those attempting to gin up popular sentiment against the enemy du jour. (See Orwell, George, reference to "Hate Week" or "Two minutes of Hate".) Acting like every Ukrainian soldier in Mariupol resisting the Russian aggression is a "Nazi" is just basking in their propaganda stream

[Smokin Joe]

Ukrainian Insurgent Army

The Ukrainian Insurgent Army (Ukrainian language: Українська Повстанська Армія (УПА) , "Ukrayins’ka Povstans’ka Armiya", or UPA) was a large and well organized Ukrainian nationalist military and later partisan army that engaged in a series of guerrilla conflicts during World War II against Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, and both Underground and Communist Poland. The group was the military wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists — Bandera faction (the OUN-B), originally formed in Volyn (northwestern Ukraine) in the spring and summer of 1943. Its official date of creation is 14 October 1942,[1] day of Intercession of the Theotokos feast.

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army


Looks like Ukraine's resistance army fought BOTH the German nazis and the Soviet communists.  Go figure.

Funny how elections held after occupation are deemed to be reflective of the sentiment of the populace.

Crimea is a noteworthy example, but closer to home, the Maryland Legislature voting on a bill of Secession after the State had been overrun and occupied by Union Troops is another.

[Smokin Joe]

The fact is, the Ukrainians did, in fact, initially see the Germans as liberators - not because the Ukrainians were nazis, but because the Russians were abominably evil and did vile and disgustingly cruel things to the Ukrainian populace - Holodomor, anyone - and the Germans were kicking the Russians out.

It was only later on that the Ukrainians learned, to their lasting lament, that the Germans were only slightly better than the Russians.

It says something about the inherent evil of the Russians that Ukrainians would have seen the German nazis as liberators.  That evil continues to this day.

Read this, and you will know why the Ukrainians were willing to try most anything to get out from under Stalin.

Holodomor
An estimated 3.9 Million starved to death in the 'breadbasket', through the forcible confiscation of grain. Accounts of cannibalism--things were that dire there.
(If you don't think that would happen even here under those circumstances, think again.)

No, as it turned out, the Nazis were not their liberators nor saviours, but just another vile oppressor, so they, too, were fought once it was realized they were no better than the Soviet Russians.

[Smokin Joe]

Let's not minimize the inherent evil of the willing collaboration by Western Ukranians with the goals of Nazi Germany.  Had Western Ukraine wanted to repel Nazi Germany, they would have had Russia's military help.

The Russia that starved millions of Ukrainians in the 1930s? That "Help"?
No wonder Ukraine was desperate enough to dance with the Devil to get out from under the Stalinst yoke.

The enemy of my enemy...only this time they turned out to be the enemy, too.

[Smokin Joe]

Excuse me, but I don't understand what you're laughing at.

If you remember Russia was fighting on our side against Nazi Germany ----  then it makes sense that had Western Ukraine wanted to repel, not join, Nazi Germany ---- Russia would have helped them win militarily.  All Western Ukraine did was make Russia's job against the nazi's more difficult.

Russia (the Soviet Union) was fighting on no one's side but their own. It was to our benefit to feed them arms and supplies to keep the Nazis busy on two fronts (enabling the invasion of the continent and eventual advances across France by thinning out Axis armies), but Stalin was in it for Stalin, and gobbled up a significant chunk of Eastern Europe during and after the war as "Socialist Republics".