Author Topic: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?  (Read 989 times)

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Offline Kamaji

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Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« on: January 17, 2022, 11:04:07 pm »
Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?

Michael Timothy Bennett & Sean Welsh
16 Jan 2022

In 2018, the Washington Post published an opinion piece by Feng Xiang entitled “AI Will Spell the End of Capitalism.” Professor Feng teaches law at Tsinghua University and is one of China’s most prominent legal scholars. The core of his argument is set forth in the opening paragraphs:

Quote
If AI remains under the control of market forces, it will inexorably result in a super-rich oligopoly of data billionaires who reap the wealth created by robots that displace human labor, leaving massive unemployment in their wake.

But China’s socialist market economy could provide a solution to this. If AI rationally allocates resources through big data analysis, and if robust feedback loops can supplant the imperfections of “the invisible hand” while fairly sharing the vast wealth it creates, a planned economy that actually works could at last be achievable.

There are a couple of things wrong with this. First, there is the obvious point that Marxists have been prophesying the end of capitalism since 1848. Second, Der Spiegel has run covers prophesying massive unemployment due to robots since 1964. These predictions are yet to eventuate.

Feng hopes that state-owned AI will revive the long-dead idea of socialist central planning. He is probably wrong about this because he overestimates the capabilities of AI and what it is good for. His reference to “big data analysis” indicates that he is referring to the particular class of data-hungry machine learning (ML) models popular today. These algorithms require a lot of data because they rely on mimicry rather than understanding and independent reasoning. ML does not work like human learning. Human children do not need ten thousand tagged images to tell the difference between cats and dogs, but contemporary ML does.

*  *  *

Feng’s claim is simply that AI oligarchs are bad and the only credible fix is a “socialist market economy” governed by a Marxist one-party state. This is a false dichotomy; our choice is not between these two extremes. We agree that AI oligarchs are an unattractive prospect. However, there are existing remedies for cartels, monopolies, and harmful AI products in the pluralist West. Targeted regulation is a better fix for capitalism’s defects than a revolution led by an alliance of workers and peasants. As a result of Frances Haugen’s testimony, many in the US Congress are looking to clip the wings of social media. The EU has led the world in regulating AI products, introducing rights to explanations, rights to be forgotten, and rights to data privacy. The Australian government has released draft legislation to expose anonymous trolls to defamation actions by removing the “platform” shield of social media and making them “publishers” accountable for the views their users post just like traditional media. The “wild west” days of the information age are over.

But Feng offers a typically Marxist “all or nothing” argument. To fix the problems of competitive capitalism, his solution is a Marxist political monopoly based on the revolutionary expropriation of the expropriators. His argument is unconvincing because it is based on a hopelessly dated caricature of capitalism. “Laissez-faire capitalism as we have known it,” he says, “can lead nowhere but to a dictatorship of AI oligarchs who gather rents because the intellectual property they own rules over the means of production.”

The obvious problem with this argument is that laissez-faire capitalism is extinct, long since abandoned in favour of regulation, anti-trust legislation, and redistribution through the welfare state. Feng overstates the market power of the AI oligarchs, most of whom make their money selling ads in a competitive market. He says nothing about the coercive power of a political monopoly, that can silence policy competition by throwing it into the gulag.

The most sinister aspect of current AI is what a one-party state can do with it. Silicon Valley has given China the technical tools to set up the world of 1984. Now the party telescreen can monitor the likes of Winston Smith 24/7. Instead of a screen on the wall, it’s the mobile phone in your pocket connected to the Internet that can be used to track you and monitor what you click on, who and what you message, and keep you and all your fellow citizens under constant surveillance for “counter-revolutionary” views. In China, the Internet and social media have evolved to be a tyrant’s dream. Comrade political officers in technology firms monitor online posts for “objectionable” material and have unlimited powers of “moderation.”

*  *  *

Forced to choose between AI oligarchs who make fortunes selling ads, regulated by elected governments that the people can replace, or a society ruled by AI platforms staffed with political officers who repress all criticism of the party line, the former is preferable.

Source:  https://quillette.com/2022/01/16/ai-and-the-end-of-capitalism/

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2022, 11:30:31 pm »
A strong article; it's worth the read.

Offline Absalom

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2022, 02:05:25 am »
Capitalism (as well as its Nemesis-in Chief, namely Socialism) is a 300 year old economic system anchored &
driven by the objective of material betterment for Man.
Both systems are focused on 'fat wallets' and have absolutely nothing to do w/the essence of Human Nature.
While Man has material sensibilities, more critical are his spiritual sensibilities, the catalysts/drivers of the
creative ideas permitting civilization, culture and society to survive and thrive for multiple thousand years.


Offline libertybele

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2022, 02:14:11 am »
Capitalism (as well as its Nemesis-in Chief, namely Socialism) is a 300 year old economic system anchored &
driven by the objective of material betterment for Man.
Both systems are focused on 'fat wallets' and have absolutely nothing to do w/the essence of Human Nature.
While Man has material sensibilities, more critical are his spiritual sensibilities, the catalysts/drivers of the
creative ideas permitting civilization, culture and society to survive and thrive for multiple thousand years.


Good point.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2022, 02:19:52 am »
Capitalism (as well as its Nemesis-in Chief, namely Socialism) is a 300 year old economic system anchored &
driven by the objective of material betterment for Man.
Both systems are focused on 'fat wallets' and have absolutely nothing to do w/the essence of Human Nature.
While Man has material sensibilities, more critical are his spiritual sensibilities, the catalysts/drivers of the
creative ideas permitting civilization, culture and society to survive and thrive for multiple thousand years.

Two words!  Bull Shit!

Capitalism is as old as mankind and is the ONLY economic system on this planet that has actually worked or ever will work for any appreciable length of time!  We need to put it into practice again!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 02:22:13 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Absalom

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2022, 04:06:42 am »
Good point.
-----------------------------
Belle, to your credit, your posts reflect an awareness of the extremity of our morass.
Yet the vast majority of others posting insist that the solution is obvious;
JUST IMPROVE OUR POLITICS, and when nothing changes, they are stunned!!!
When we embrace the wisdom of the past we will have a chance, otherwise we will disappear!!!

Online Hoodat

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2022, 04:11:36 am »
Capitalism (as well as its Nemesis-in Chief, namely Socialism) is a 300 year old economic system anchored &
driven by the objective of material betterment for Man.
Both systems are focused on 'fat wallets' and have absolutely nothing to do w/the essence of Human Nature.

You could not possibly be any more wrong than that.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Online Hoodat

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2022, 04:12:42 am »
Two words!  Bull Shit!

I would be willing to combine that down to one word and double the font size.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Absalom

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2022, 04:28:47 am »
Two words!  Bull Shit!

Capitalism is as old as mankind and is the ONLY economic system on this planet that has actually worked or ever will work for any appreciable length of time!  We need to put it into practice again!
------------------------------
Respectfully, you don't know what in tarnation you're yapping about!!!
Mankind's ageless economic system was Agrarianism, later followed by Mercantilism, allowing Man to survive then thrive.
Capitalism was born during the French Enlightenment, 300 years past, and promoted by English Whigs, among them
Thomas Hobbes, David Hume, John Locke and Adam Smith.
The birth of Industrialism, post-Civil War, promoted Capitalism to the top-ranking economic system.   

« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 07:54:47 pm by Absalom »

Offline Bigun

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2022, 04:40:11 am »
------------------------------
Respectfully, you don't know what in tarnation you're yapping about!!!
The ageless economic system born w/Man was Agriculturalism which allowed him to survive then thrive.
Capitalism was born during the French Enlightenment, 300 years past, and promoted by English Whigs,
including Thomas Hobbes, David Hume, Adam Smith
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

It is you Sir who doesn't know what the hell he is talking about!  Agriculture is a profession! NOT an economic system.  and you are STILL FOS! Capitalism has been with us forever and will remain with us for so long as people walk this earth.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline DB

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2022, 04:44:17 am »
Capitalism (as well as its Nemesis-in Chief, namely Socialism) is a 300 year old economic system anchored &
driven by the objective of material betterment for Man.
Both systems are focused on 'fat wallets' and have absolutely nothing to do w/the essence of Human Nature.
While Man has material sensibilities, more critical are his spiritual sensibilities, the catalysts/drivers of the
creative ideas permitting civilization, culture and society to survive and thrive for multiple thousand years.

Isn't "capitalism" a word Marx created?

Ultimately "capitalism" is simply the freedom for individuals to create/sell/trade/organize their labors with other willing partners.

In short it is economic freedom.

Offline Absalom

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2022, 04:56:36 am »
It is you Sir who doesn't know what the hell he is talking about!  Agriculture is a profession! NOT an economic system.  and you are STILL FOS! Capitalism has been with us forever and will remain with us for so long as people walk this earth.
----------------------------
Suggest you calm down and read economic history.
My facts came from the Britannica's write up of Hume and Smith.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2022, 05:03:38 am »
Isn't "capitalism" a word Marx created?

Ultimately "capitalism" is simply the freedom for individuals to create/sell/trade/organize their labors with other willing partners.

In short it is economic freedom.

In the context of open and voluntary trade, that's right. And in that same context, @Bigun is likely right too - Necessarily, transactions BEGIN in open and voluntary trade of goods and services. Without government, without banks, with nothing more than two people meeting amicably along a trail, willing to do business together - That aspect inevitably must be the genesis of trade all the way to the misty prehistoric past.

What has been piled upon those simple voluntary contracts, fiat monetary system, corporatism, banking and etc stinks of interference and corporate-cronyism or corporate-capitalism (same thing), which is likely what @Absalom  is pointing to.

In this day, undoubtedly it is only capitalism that preserves that simple agreement between two parties.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2022, 05:07:31 am »
In that vein btw, capitalism is at the root of agrarianism... With the ephasis more on those small contracts than upon larger more intricate ones.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 05:09:35 am by roamer_1 »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2022, 05:11:59 am »
And no, AI will have no real effect... Auto/buggy whip as a sterling example.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2022, 05:19:21 am »
It is you Sir who doesn't know what the hell he is talking about!  Agriculture is a profession! NOT an economic system.  and you are STILL FOS! Capitalism has been with us forever and will remain with us for so long as people walk this earth.

@Bigun Agrarianism is a pseudo-political economic emphasis upon rural interactions - eschewing citified economies in favor of subsistence rather than industrial fat-cat business.

I am in favor of that btw... I think any region or county or township should be able to first sustain itself locally, relying far less upon the shipping that feeds our towns like an addiction.  In the sense of liberty (responsibility), such a construct would forego many 'deals with the devil' that cause us to lean toward statism currently.

This could be a fun thread.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2022, 05:37:38 am »
FYI See Jeffersonian Democracy as the applicable 'Agrarianism' pertinent to the United States.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2022, 06:06:31 am »
Capitalism (as well as its Nemesis-in Chief, namely Socialism) is a 300 year old economic system anchored &
driven by the objective of material betterment for Man.
Both systems are focused on 'fat wallets' and have absolutely nothing to do w/the essence of Human Nature.
While Man has material sensibilities, more critical are his spiritual sensibilities, the catalysts/drivers of the
creative ideas permitting civilization, culture and society to survive and thrive for multiple thousand years.

I will begin by saying I am mostly on your side of this @Absalom ...

I DO agree that something akin to an Agrarian mindset is in fact the historical norm.
Where I believe you are in error is something like Dorothy, Toto and Ruby Slippers... We can't go back to Kansas.

That is, until we do - And that will be a cataclysmic event.

In part you are in fact wrong - Mercantilism is part and parcel of English economy since the Magna Carta, creating the middle class and formed the springboard out of feudalism.

So these United States have always had a form of modern Capitalism, if not by that name, since its inception. We have always had that mobile middle class, which has always been driven by the kinder gentler aspects of mercantilism... One could point to freight movers in the old west, and private stage services the same...

Agrarianism survived so long as the norm (even here) because across this vast land, until well after the establishment of modern freeways, small town America was the norm. It took a long, long time for cities and industrialism to extend its reach into America's rural heart.. One could say that it is still mostly so.

I will agree it is the historic norm - but it is not a thing to be forced, hence one cannot go back - We are in this room now.

One day it will go back, as a matter of survival and subsistence - A hard and bare fact, sooner than we'd like I think... But as a necessity... and only then. This plandemic has magnified that truth. Think of how much worse so many would fare if the trucks and trains just stopped running altogether rather than being slow as they still are.

It is a complicated problem and one we are no longer prone to solve natively... Folks have largely lost the technologies that make subsistence (in a comfortable way) possible. That addiction goes all the way back to electricity and refrigeration. I imagine there are very few on this board that can understand how to store food without canning, refrigeration and electricity...

So you are not wrong - but neither is what you call for possible - Not on a grand national scale. It is barely possible on an individual basis. I am among the most capable here in that regard and I might make it on subsistence only (I am heading that way), but even I would fail in the end.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 06:09:07 am by roamer_1 »

Offline Bigun

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2022, 02:34:26 pm »
----------------------------
Suggest you calm down and read economic history.
My facts came from the Britannica's write up of Hume and Smith.

I'm calm and I have read economic history far more extensively than you obviously.

What you, and my friend @roamer_1 are trying to get at is Mercantilism which is largely what rules these days.  Free market capitalism has not been practiced by any government on this planet for a very long time but that does not mean it is not still widely practiced and it will, of necessity, continue to be practiced for so long as people continue to walk the earth regardless of what any government has to say about it.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 02:38:05 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Hoodat

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2022, 03:20:42 pm »
Capitalism (as well as its Nemesis-in Chief, namely Socialism) is a 300 year old economic system anchored &
driven by the objective of material betterment for Man.

False.  Neither is driven by the objective of the material betterment for Man.  Socialism derives no such material betterment, but instead is based upon spreading the misery by the central confiscation and redistribution of the production of others and justified through their guilt.  In contrast, Capitalism is driven by one thing and one thing only, the individual doing what serves his/her own personal self-interests best with complete indifference on the betterment of mankind.



Both systems are focused on 'fat wallets' and have absolutely nothing to do w/the essence of Human Nature.

Again, Capitalism is focused exclusively on the self-interest of the individual while socialism is based on confiscating the production of that individual by an outside entity.  Capitalism exists solely because of human nature (see "self-interest of the individual" above) while socialism seeks to defy it.


While Man has material sensibilities, more critical are his spiritual sensibilities, the catalysts/drivers of the
creative ideas permitting civilization, culture and society to survive and thrive for multiple thousand years.

If you are going to bring philosophy into this, at least give credit where credit is due.  From a philosophical standpoint, the precept of Capitalism was formulated by John Locke in his treatise, "On Property".  It is the right to property that provides the individual the ability to act in his own self interest to improve his condition.  Contrast that with socialism where the individual's right to property is limited by the confiscation of said property by some force of government.

Capitalism cannot exist without the acceptance of individual rights, a legal system to protect those rights, and a set of rules that apply equally to all (e.g. patent rights, infrastructure accessibility, market mobility, etc.)
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Online Hoodat

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2022, 03:39:26 pm »
In part you are in fact wrong - Mercantilism is part and parcel of English economy since the Magna Carta, creating the middle class and formed the springboard out of feudalism.

So these United States have always had a form of modern Capitalism, if not by that name, since its inception. We have always had that mobile middle class, which has always been driven by the kinder gentler aspects of mercantilism... One could point to freight movers in the old west, and private stage services the same...

Opposition to Mercantilism is what helped fuel our Revolution.  The UK prohibited the manufacture of finished goods in its colonies, utilizing them exclusively as sources of raw materials.  They also utilized tariffs as a way to punish/reward certain industries - an affront to a level playing field and the free exercise of the individual to improve his/her lot.  It would be several decades after the publication of Adam Smith's book The Wealth of Nations that these practices would be abandoned and the Industrial Revolution could take hold.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Online Hoodat

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2022, 03:43:12 pm »
FYI See Jeffersonian Democracy as the applicable 'Agrarianism' pertinent to the United States.

In word, the communists talk up a big game about agrarianism as the chief cornerstone of the collective, elevating the farmer above your typical bourgeois intellectual.  But in actual practice, not so much.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Bigun

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2022, 03:44:34 pm »
False.  Neither is driven by the objective of the material betterment for Man.  Socialism derives no such material betterment, but instead is based upon spreading the misery by the central confiscation and redistribution of the production of others and justified through their guilt.  In contrast, Capitalism is driven by one thing and one thing only, the individual doing what serves his/her own personal self-interests best with complete indifference on the betterment of mankind.



Again, Capitalism is focused exclusively on the self-interest of the individual while socialism is based on confiscating the production of that individual by an outside entity.  Capitalism exists solely because of human nature (see "self-interest of the individual" above) while socialism seeks to defy it.


If you are going to bring philosophy into this, at least give credit where credit is due.  From a philosophical standpoint, the precept of Capitalism was formulated by John Locke in his treatise, "On Property".  It is the right to property that provides the individual the ability to act in his own self interest to improve his condition.  Contrast that with socialism where the individual's right to property is limited by the confiscation of said property by some force of government.

Capitalism cannot exist without the acceptance of individual rights, a legal system to protect those rights, and a set of rules that apply equally to all (e.g. patent rights, infrastructure accessibility, market mobility, etc.)

@Hoodat

Thank you for spelling all that out for them. ALL of which they would already know if they had bothered to read:


"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2022, 03:49:22 pm »
Opposition to Mercantilism is what helped fuel our Revolution.  The UK prohibited the manufacture of finished goods in its colonies, utilizing them exclusively as sources of raw materials.  They also utilized tariffs as a way to punish/reward certain industries - an affront to a level playing field and the free exercise of the individual to improve his/her lot.  It would be several decades after the publication of Adam Smith's book The Wealth of Nations that these practices would be abandoned and the Industrial Revolution could take hold.

And agents of mercantilism have been seeking to undermine our form of government since before the ink was dry on the paper that contains our constitution!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Absalom

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Re: Will AI Spell the End of Capitalism?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2022, 06:58:36 pm »
I'm calm and I have read economic history far more extensively than you obviously.
What you, and my friend @roamer_1 are trying to get at is Mercantilism which is largely what rules these days.  Free market capitalism has not been practiced by any government on this planet for a very long time but that does not mean it is not still widely practiced and it will, of necessity, continue to be practiced for so long as people continue to walk the earth regardless of what any government has to say about it.

--------------------------------
Hmm...............so Capitalism remains eternal, yet Mercantilism now rules???????
Anyway............the essence of my argument is plain and simple!
When one is trapped by angst and turmoil while losing hope; one is advised to look
beyond both the now and the self for guidance; the eternal remedy of those proceeding us.
Yet we are told that better politics is the answer or that adherence to market freedom
will cure our ills or some other such malarkey.
Ageless values & virtues embedded in our Psyche anchor and guide us.
When they are ignored and replaced, then forgotten, Man loses his way and the culture/society
of the nation /state pays the price.
Believing any aspect of materialism is the answer to our morass and decline is beyond brainless!!!