Author Topic: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate  (Read 4901 times)

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Offline Kamaji

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2022, 05:48:18 pm »
They are heading into the weeds...all they should be considering is if it is constitutional for the federal government to issue a vaccine mandate!

And the Constitutionality of that may, in part, depend on the medical risks at stake in either allowing the mandate or not.  That is part of the due process analysis that is at the bottom of determining whether the mandate is constitutional or not.

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2022, 05:52:21 pm »
They are heading into the weeds...all they should be considering is if it is constitutional for the federal government to issue a vaccine mandate!

I hate to tell you this but they have been off in the weeds for ages!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2022, 05:56:16 pm »
I hate to tell you this but they have been off in the weeds for ages!

LMAO....I know...but I was just commenting on where this particular case is heading... :silly:
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Online Bigun

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2022, 06:07:13 pm »
LMAO....I know...but I was just commenting on where this particular case is heading... :silly:

To quote something I recall hearing Fairly recently; "The chickens are coming home to roost!"
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2022, 06:09:59 pm »
What pi$$e$ me off is: This should be an argument over the Constitutionality of the mandate .. Not Opinions on the medical advantages or disadvantages!

Good God .. None of these so called "Supremes" are Doctors, or are they?
Aside from the First amendment issues (religious objections), there is the question of whether such power was ever intended to be wielded by ANY governmental agency.

To deprive people of employment for not getting a vaccine that does not prevent infection is even more outrageous.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Texas Yellow Rose

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2022, 06:39:08 pm »
Jacobson v Massachusetts: It’s Not Your Great-Great-Grandfather’s Public Health Law

Jacobson v Massachusetts, a 1905 US Supreme Court decision, raised questions about the power of state government to protect the public’s health and the Constitution’s protection of personal liberty. We examined conceptions about state power and personal liberty in Jacobson and later cases that expanded, superseded, or even ignored those ideas.

Public health and constitutional law have evolved to better protect both health and human rights. States’ sovereign power to make laws of all kinds has not changed in the past century. What has changed is the Court’s recognition of the importance of individual liberty and how it limits that power. Preserving the public’s health in the 21st century requires preserving respect for personal liberty.

“The case before us must be considered in the light of our whole experience and not merely in that of what was said a hundred years ago.”

—Missouri v Holland


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449224/

Offline mrclose

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2022, 07:27:37 pm »
And the Constitutionality of that may, in part, depend on the medical risks at stake in either allowing the mandate or not.  That is part of the due process analysis that is at the bottom of determining whether the mandate is constitutional or not.
Absolutely false!

Under that premise, you may as well hand over your guns!

Oh yeah, no more sugar for you!

 I'm sure we can make a list of unapproved, medically detrimental freedoms we can "Constitutionally" deprive the once free people of!
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Offline mrclose

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2022, 07:34:48 pm »
For those who like to quote past arguments by courts, (SCOTUS), may I remind you that not even SCOTUS is above the constitution!

At one time slavery was deemed legal!



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Offline Kamaji

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2022, 07:37:03 pm »
Absolutely false!

Under that premise, you may as well hand over your guns!

Oh yeah, no more sugar for you!

 I'm sure we can make a list of unapproved, medically detrimental freedoms we can "Constitutionally" deprive the once free people of!


If you say so, Chief.

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2022, 07:39:19 pm »
Justice Sonia Sotomayor: ‘Why Is a Human Being Not a Machine if It’s Spewing a Virus?’[huh!]

Katherine Hamilton 7 Jan 2022

Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor compared human beings to machines when commenting in favor of President Joe Biden’s vaccine mandate for businesses with 100-plus employees on Friday.

“Why is a human being not like a machine if it’s spewing a virus, blood-borne viruses?” Sotomayor asked Scott Keller, the attorney for National Federation of Independent Business, during an expedited Supreme Court hearing regarding the Occupational Safety and Health Administration’s (OSHA) coronavirus vaccine mandate.

Sotomayor, who is known as a strident liberal, made the query during an exchange with Keller about whether OSHA requiring businesses to mandate mask wearing as a preventative coronavirus measure is different than OSHA mandating mask wearing when “sparks are flying in the work place.” Keller answered that those machines are presumably “unique to that workplace” before Sotomayor interjected her remark comparing people to machines.

The justice also said the OSHA mandate is not a vaccine mandate because of the masking and testing option.

more
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/01/07/justice-sonia-sotomayor-why-is-a-human-being-not-a-machine-if-its-spewing-a-virus/
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2022, 07:42:47 pm »
For those who like to quote past arguments by courts, (SCOTUS), may I remind you that not even SCOTUS is above the constitution!

At one time slavery was deemed legal!






/snicker


The second necessarily leads to the first, and therefore the first was, in fact, effectively chosen.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2022, 07:47:15 pm »
Justice Sonia Sotomayor: ‘Why Is a Human Being Not a Machine if It’s Spewing a Virus?’[huh!]

Katherine Hamilton 7 Jan 2022

Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor compared human beings to machines when commenting in favor of President Joe Biden’s vaccine mandate for businesses with 100-plus employees on Friday.

“Why is a human being not like a machine if it’s spewing a virus, blood-borne viruses?” Sotomayor asked Scott Keller, the attorney for National Federation of Independent Business, during an expedited Supreme Court hearing regarding the Occupational Safety and Health Administration’s (OSHA) coronavirus vaccine mandate.

Sotomayor, who is known as a strident liberal, made the query during an exchange with Keller about whether OSHA requiring businesses to mandate mask wearing as a preventative coronavirus measure is different than OSHA mandating mask wearing when “sparks are flying in the work place.” Keller answered that those machines are presumably “unique to that workplace” before Sotomayor interjected her remark comparing people to machines.

The justice also said the OSHA mandate is not a vaccine mandate because of the masking and testing option.

more
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/01/07/justice-sonia-sotomayor-why-is-a-human-being-not-a-machine-if-its-spewing-a-virus/
Every article of outerwear on my job has to be NFPA 2112 compliant (Flame Resistant) or I am subject to being fined by OSHA, and dismissed from my job.
Are there face masks that comply with that OSHA regulation?

If not, that does not leave the test and mask option open to me, because of OSHA regulations.

In effect, the combination of regulations would mandate the vaccine, all from OSHA.

As for the FR clothing, when I leave the site, I can take that off, go home, relax.


The "vaccine " does not afford me that.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline mountaineer

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2022, 09:05:27 pm »
Left-Wing SCOTUS Justices Spew COVID Misinformation To Defend Biden’s Unconstitutional Vaxx Mandate
SCOTUS liberals lied that ‘hospitals are almost all full capacity’ and that more than 100,000 kids are hospitalized on ventilators with COVID.
By: Jordan Boyd
January 07, 2022
Quote
The U.S. Supreme Court heard arguments on Friday over the Biden administration’s vaccine mandate for private employers during which several justices made repeated false claims about COVID-19 and the effectiveness of the jab.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) rolled out its emergency temporary standard demanding that private employers with 100 or more employees require vaccinations at the request of the Biden administration late last year. The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals issued a temporary stay, however, preventing enforcement.

Challengers of the OSHA standard argued on Friday that the agency has no right to force a medical decision on workers, but several justices pushed back on this idea using false narratives about COVID-19 to justify the federal government’s vaccine mandate.

Justice Elena Kagan suggested that getting the vaccine reduces the spread of COVID-19, a dubious claim that’s contested by the rapidly rising number of breakthrough cases worldwide. Kagan’s opinion is that “this is the policy that is most geared to stopping all this.”

“There’s nothing else that will perform that function better than incentivizing people strongly to vaccinate themselves. So, you know, whatever necessary means, whatever grave means, why isn’t this necessary and grave?” Kagan said. ...
The Federalist

It's not necessary because this has always been a very recoverable illness - more now than ever, given how innocuous the current variant is. So it's not even close to "grave," you dimbulb.
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2022, 09:15:34 pm »
Left-Wing SCOTUS Justices Spew COVID Misinformation To Defend Biden’s Unconstitutional Vaxx Mandate
SCOTUS liberals lied that ‘hospitals are almost all full capacity’ and that more than 100,000 kids are hospitalized on ventilators with COVID.
By: Jordan Boyd
January 07, 2022 The Federalist

It's not necessary because this has always been a very recoverable illness - more now than ever, given how innocuous the current variant is. So it's not even close to "grave," you dimbulb.

Doesn't give one much hope for past or future rulings, if they can walk in that ignorant and un-researched.
The Republic is lost.

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2022, 09:22:20 pm »
Left-Wing SCOTUS Justices Spew COVID Misinformation To Defend Biden’s Unconstitutional Vaxx Mandate
SCOTUS liberals lied that ‘hospitals are almost all full capacity’ and that more than 100,000 kids are hospitalized on ventilators with COVID.
By: Jordan Boyd
January 07, 2022 The Federalist

It's not necessary because this has always been a very recoverable illness - more now than ever, given how innocuous the current variant is. So it's not even close to "grave," you dimbulb.

Beside which, NONE of it has a single thing to do with what the LAW is or is not!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2022, 09:28:17 pm »
Beside which, NONE of it has a single thing to do with what the LAW is or is not!
Right. Their misinformed testimony is irrelevant.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Bigun

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2022, 09:30:09 pm »
Right. Their misinformed testimony is irrelevant.

And WTF are they doing testifying to begin with?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline libertybele

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2022, 09:30:45 pm »
Doesn't give one much hope for past or future rulings, if they can walk in that ignorant and un-researched.

I lost hope with this SCOTUS long ago.
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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2022, 09:32:40 pm »
I lost hope with this SCOTUS long ago.

12/11/2021 Texas vs Pennsylvania ended any remaining hope I had.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Hoodat

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2022, 09:33:31 pm »


Let me guess.  She read this in the Federalist Papers.
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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2022, 09:34:08 pm »
Conservative justices seem skeptical of Biden vaccine mandates

Conservative members of the Supreme Court on Friday appeared skeptical of Biden administration policies that impose a COVID-19 vaccine-or-test requirement on broad swathes of the U.S. workforce.

During several hours of oral arguments, the court’s conservative majority posed sharp questions about whether a federal workplace law that Congress passed some five decades ago provides the legal authority for a vaccine-or-test policy affecting roughly 84 million workers at large employers.

The conservative justices also appeared wary, though slightly less so, of a separate coronavirus vaccine mandate that applies to the roughly 17 million health care workers at hospitals and other facilities that receive federal funding through the Medicare and Medicaid programs.


The tenor of Friday’s back-to-back arguments suggested a split along familiar ideological lines. Questions posed by the court’s six conservative justices reflected concerns about granular details like the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines in preventing the spread to others, as well as broader structural issues like how public health authority fits within the country’s constitutional framework.

“It seems to me that the more and more mandates that pop up in different agencies, it's fair -- I wonder if it's not fair for us to look at [this] as a general exercise of power by the federal government and then ask the questions of, well, why doesn't Congress have a say in this, and why don't the -- why doesn't this be the primary responsibility of the states?” Chief Justice John Roberts asked the solicitor general.

The court’s three liberals appeared primarily concerned with the public health impact that might result from blocking the administration’s policies while challenges proceed in the lower courts.   

more
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/588774-conservative-justices-seem-skeptical-of-biden-vaccine-policies
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 09:35:50 pm by mystery-ak »
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2022, 09:34:54 pm »
Left-Wing SCOTUS Justices Spew COVID Misinformation To Defend Biden’s Unconstitutional Vaxx Mandate
SCOTUS liberals lied that ‘hospitals are almost all full capacity’ and that more than 100,000 kids are hospitalized on ventilators with COVID.
By: Jordan Boyd
January 07, 2022 The Federalist

It's not necessary because this has always been a very recoverable illness - more now than ever, given how innocuous the current variant is. So it's not even close to "grave," you dimbulb.

I don't give a damn if 300 million Americans are on ventilators.  It doesn't change what the Constitution says.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2022, 09:35:16 pm »
Exclusive–Kobach: Supreme Court Justices Offer Clues About the Fate of the OSHA Vaccine Mandate

Kris W. Kobach 7 Jan 2022

On Friday morning, the Supreme Court heard arguments concerning the legality of President Biden’s use of an OSHA “emergency temporary standard” to force vaccinations (or weekly testing and constant mask wearing) on people working at companies with 100 or more employees. 

More than two dozen suits were filed in the case, which was subsequently consolidated into a single, mammoth lawsuit in the Sixth Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals.  However, as soon as the Sixth Circuit lifted a stay on the OSHA standard that had been put in place by the Fifth Circuit, the groups challenging the OSHA standard sought an emergency stay in the Supreme Court.  The emergency stay would only be in place until the case was fully reviewed by the courts and a final decision was issued.  I am the lead attorney representing one group of those challengers—North Dakota companies and employees.

Although it is difficult to draw firm conclusions from the questions and statements made by the Justices during oral argument, several of the Justices revealed their thinking on the matter.

The three progressive Justices showed their hands clearly:  all three are leaning strongly in OSHA’s favor.  Justice Kagan seemed willing to let the OSHA mandate go into effect because of the danger presented by COVID.  Justice Sotomayor, too, suggested that “deaths at an unprecedented amount” justified the OSHA rule.  She also suggested that a “national rule” was needed to overrule the states that had banned vaccine requirements in the workplace.  Justice Breyer was even stronger in his expression of support for OSHA, focusing on the large number of new COVID cases emerging daily and calling it “unbelievable” to say that the OSHA vaccine mandate is not in the public interest. 

The progressive Justices also argued that the sickness and death that the absence of a vaccine mandate might cause outweighed the possibility that 1-3 percent of employees might quit rather take the vaccine.  But the 1-3 percent estimate is OSHA’s, and it is not remotely realistic.  One of the parties that I represent in this litigation, DTN Staffing—a company that provides nurses to medical facilities in the northern Midwest—estimates that 40-50 percent of its nurses will quit if they are forced to get the vaccine or test weekly.

On the other side, the two most conservative Justices were clearly skeptical regarding the OSHA standard’s legality.  Justice Thomas pointed to the fact that states and local government entities have the authority to enact COVID rules, so the absence of such authority in OSHA does not mean other government entities cannot act.  Justice Alito said that by using an OSHA standard, the Biden Administration was “trying to squeeze an elephant into a mousehole.”  He also pointed out that “protecting the vaccinated was not the basis for this rule;” instead OSHA justified it as a means of protecting the unvaccinated.  If that is the case, then the OSHA rule becomes hard to justify, when those workers have assessed those risks and are willing to bear them.  He emphasized that the OSHA regulation itself “imposes a risk” because of the potential adverse health consequences that many people suffer after receiving a COVID vaccination.

Two of the Trump appointees seemed to be leaning against the rule.  Justice Gorsuch asked Biden’s Solicitor General, “Why isn’t this a major question that belongs in the states and in the halls of Congress?”  He also pointed out that “traditionally OSHA has not regulated in this area,” and that if OSHA could use emergency regulations to deal with COVID, then it could also use emergency regulations to address the flu.  And Justice Kavanaugh noted that Congress has passed laws addressing vaccines before, but not in this context, suggesting therefore that Congress did not intend for OSHA to have such authority.

more
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/01/07/exclusive-kobach-supreme-court-justices-offer-clues-about-the-fate-of-the-osha-vaccine-mandate/
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2022, 09:36:10 pm »
And WTF are they doing testifying to begin with?
Right. They are (obviously) not experts on the medical issues.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Hoodat

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Re: High Noon at High Court for Vax Mandate
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2022, 09:36:34 pm »
What pi$$e$ me off is: This should be an argument over the Constitutionality of the mandate .. Not Opinions on the medical advantages or disadvantages!

Good God .. None of these so called "Supremes" are Doctors, or are they?

I seem to recall the exact same reasoning when Roe was decided.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.

-Dwight Eisenhower-


"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

-Ayn Rand-