Thinking About Race and IQ (Murray book, "Facing Reality")

[Fishrrman]

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2021/09/22/thinking_about_race_and_iq_146445.html

Thinking About Race and IQ
22 Sep, 2021
J. Peder Zane

Excerpt:
Charles Murray is once again throwing kerosene on the tinderbox of American race relations.

Reviving the explosive argument he made in his 1994 book, “The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life,” the noted scholar is once again highlighting data showing that African Americans score lower on IQ tests than other groups in the United States.

Given the current climate, it is not surprising that his new book, “Facing Reality,” has been largely ignored by almost every major newspaper and magazine. But this dismissal is, ironically, a validation of his premise.

If his numbers were easily debunked, legions of journalists and social commentators would be lining up to do so. If the problem he identifies were easy to fix, they would be telling us how. Their unwillingness to engage Murray (pictured) is tantamount to an acceptance of racial determinism.

Make no mistake, “Facing Reality” – which also addresses connections between crime and race – is inflammatory. Murray not only reports that test cores suggest that African Americans, as a group, do have lower cognitive abilities than whites, Asians and Latinos, but he concludes that the problem is “intractable.”

Reviving the explosive argument he made in his 1994 book, “The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life,” the noted scholar is once again highlighting data showing that African Americans score lower on IQ tests than other groups in the United States.

Given the current climate, it is not surprising that his new book, “Facing Reality,” has been largely ignored by almost every major newspaper and magazine. But this dismissal is, ironically, a validation of his premise.

If his numbers were easily debunked, legions of journalists and social commentators would be lining up to do so.

More at URL above...

[goatprairie]

The problem is real, but it's not intractable. If black females with low IQs were offered a decent sum of money to get their tubes tied/sterilized, the average black IQ could rise enough to make a difference in one generation. I'd do the same for any demographic, but obviously raising the average IQ would help blacks the most.
The cost in less crime and general uselessness of low IQ people would be well worth paying these people now.
Everything would be completely voluntary. But hopefully many low IQ females would take the money.

[Smokin Joe]

The problem is real, but it's not intractable. If black females with low IQs were offered a decent sum of money to get their tubes tied/sterilized, the average black IQ could rise enough to make a difference in one generation. I'd do the same for any demographic, but obviously raising the average IQ would help blacks the most.
The cost in less crime and general uselessness of low IQ people would be well worth paying these people now.
Everything would be completely voluntary. But hopefully many low IQ females would take the money.

It might not even involve sterilization, because long-life (5 yr) implants and IUDs can get the job done and still be reversible after a few years.  Given time to mature, to desire more out of life than being a babymama on welfare or a regular at the local baby abattoir, with educational incentives as well, a generation could be lifted from settling for poverty--and not just the women.  Get away from the whole idea that the ticket in life is winning the PE lottery and going on to play pro, (or a rapper, or a 'gangsta', and push the idea of learning to be a credit to their community.

[roamer_1]

It might not even involve sterilization, because long-life (5 yr) implants and IUDs can get the job done and still be reversible after a few years.  Given time to mature, to desire more out of life than being a babymama on welfare or a regular at the local baby abattoir, with educational incentives as well, a generation could be lifted from settling for poverty--and not just the women.  Get away from the whole idea that the ticket in life is winning the PE lottery and going on to play pro, (or a rapper, or a 'gangsta', and push the idea of learning to be a credit to their community.

I don't think it is real. I have known black folks that are sharp as a tack, and I know white folks that are as dumb as a box of hammers.

The primary problem is not fixed by sterilizing black women (what a horrid thought). The problem is getting black fathers to remain in the home. Literally the very same can be said of whites.

[Smokin Joe]

I don't think it is real. I have known black folks that are sharp as a tack, and I know white folks that are as dumb as a box of hammers.

The primary problem is not fixed by sterilizing black women (what a horrid thought). The problem is getting black fathers to remain in the home. Literally the very same can be said of whites.

Truth, that, the family unit used to include two adults of opposite sex, with offspring. There is a lot of friction in the whole "gangsta" culture, and a big part of that has bled into a lighter skinned demographic. I hate the terms "baby daddy" and "baby mama" because they don't quite even elevate the participants to the level of brood mares and stud horses, more like roosters and hens.

It is all a huge step away from the stabilizing influence of the nuclear family, and frankly, something my mother saw coming in the '60s.

There was a time when that bambino in the bun signalled aettling down, commitment, and responsibility, but that seemed to fly out the window with the "sexual revolution" and contraceptives being widely available, not to mention the afterthought of Roe and the "morning after" pill. So I can't really say that contraception, be it temporary or permanent, is the key to anything but a lightened burden on abortuaries, and it just might not be the cultural tweak needed to ensure more maturity in finding a mate, especially in today's hook-up culture. But it would buy time to consider the future and mature and stop living in the moment.

Of course, we used to be taught such as a matter of course, it was as essential to the Culture as Sunday School or the Pledge of Allegiance, or even the acknowledgement of a Deity commanding all. But that culture has been largely subverted in the last 50 years, decried as "sexist" and "racist" and every other epithet that could be mustered against it by the Communists and self-worshiping statists and others of their ilk who seek to remove all common ground from humanity in their personal quest for power.

In the end, the culture is what harms it's participants (or benefits them, as the case may be), and until the aggrieved class quits blaming others and pulls itself up by its bootstraps rather than looting the fruits of the efforts of others and blaming them for their own malaise, it just isn't going to change.

As long as we subsidize that culture, it has no need to be any different.

[HoustonSam]

I don't think it is real. I have known black folks that are sharp as a tack, and I know white folks that are as dumb as a box of hammers.

Unfortunately this observation, which I share, is not relevant to Murray's case.  His work predicts nothing about any individual, it describes aggregate populations.  What is true of an aggregate population need not be true for any specific member of that population.

The primary problem is not fixed by sterilizing black women (what a horrid thought). The problem is getting black fathers to remain in the home. Literally the very same can be said of whites.

That problem might be less getting fathers (of any race) to remain in the home and more of getting mothers (of any race) to stop kicking them out.

[roamer_1]

Unfortunately this observation, which I share, is not relevant to Murray's case.  His work predicts nothing about any individual, it describes aggregate populations.  What is true of an aggregate population need not be true for any specific member of that population.

I understand that - but I don't think it is quantified by mere aggregation. The qualifier, I do believe, is whether the culture (greater and tribal/familial) teaches its people to think. Not to learn, per se, which is always accomplished by rote, according to the means afforded by the public system... But rather, to think. Relative to real stupidity and ignorance, it has not been my experience that any race is greater or worse, but rather, whether the ability to think has been imparted. capacity is more or less the same... except where a level of excellence is demanded. That insistence upon excellence is hard to quantify in generalizations and aggregations.

With a broad brush, mothers nurture, fathers demand. The impact of a father's concern is what is missing. And where it is present, despite culture and deprivation, children excel, far beyond their means. More fathers, more thinking.

That problem might be less getting fathers (of any race) to remain in the home and more of getting mothers (of any race) to stop kicking them out.

Rather, convincing women to stop giving it away. Feminism has destroyed the one thing that gave women leverage.

[roamer_1]

Truth, that, the family unit used to include two adults of opposite sex, with offspring. There is a lot of friction in the whole "gangsta" culture, and a big part of that has bled into a lighter skinned demographic. I hate the terms "baby daddy" and "baby mama" because they don't quite even elevate the participants to the level of brood mares and stud horses, more like roosters and hens.

It is all a huge step away from the stabilizing influence of the nuclear family, and frankly, something my mother saw coming in the '60s.

There was a time when that bambino in the bun signalled aettling down, commitment, and responsibility, but that seemed to fly out the window with the "sexual revolution" and contraceptives being widely available, not to mention the afterthought of Roe and the "morning after" pill. So I can't really say that contraception, be it temporary or permanent, is the key to anything but a lightened burden on abortuaries, and it just might not be the cultural tweak needed to ensure more maturity in finding a mate, especially in today's hook-up culture. But it would buy time to consider the future and mature and stop living in the moment.

Of course, we used to be taught such as a matter of course, it was as essential to the Culture as Sunday School or the Pledge of Allegiance, or even the acknowledgement of a Deity commanding all. But that culture has been largely subverted in the last 50 years, decried as "sexist" and "racist" and every other epithet that could be mustered against it by the Communists and self-worshiping statists and others of their ilk who seek to remove all common ground from humanity in their personal quest for power.

In the end, the culture is what harms it's participants (or benefits them, as the case may be), and until the aggrieved class quits blaming others and pulls itself up by its bootstraps rather than looting the fruits of the efforts of others and blaming them for their own malaise, it just isn't going to change.

As long as we subsidize that culture, it has no need to be any different.

That's all right.
To plumb just a little deeper, 'gangsta life' is a juvenile and short-sighted replacement for clan. It is so easy to see it in its hierarchy and merit-based system... By its very existence, one can extrapolate what is missing in those young lad's lives. They yearn to prove their salt. They need a hierarchy to climb. They need elders to show them and assure them of their passage into manhood. Typically male. It is but a moronic caricature of the real thing, generated by young minds that know they need something, a something they have not the experience to define.

Mamma ain't going to nail that boy down when he hits rebellion. She can wail on him all she wants. What he needs is a curly haired alpha wolf to try and take his honor from, and the ensuing smackdown is what teaches him his place. THEN he'll come along to church because mamma says so... because the old man has his stink eye out before the boy even starts to talk sass. He may try a time or two, but he knows what's going to happen.

Similarly in the girl. She transfers the love and protection, the demands and acceptance of a father onto a poor replacement... The braggadocios caricature of virility and power as found in those would be gangstas. And she will trade her most precious thing for that falsity... I have seen it a thousand times.

All of it. All of it is caricatures of the hierarchical house and clan. And where they are still intact, by and large, the caricature holds no attraction.

[Absalom]

A reflection from geography and history.
* While the Cradle of Civilization was in the Middle East, the founders of Western Civilization were Greece and Rome;
both sited in Europe whose population was White from Sicily to northern Sweden as well as Ireland to Russia.
* South of Europe was Africa who population was Black, north, south, east and west.
* Asia was Oriental, labeled Yellow, from the Islands of the South China Sea to Bactria (Afghanistan).
History has recorded the development of each continent and Europe dominates, Asia ranks second
while Africa brings up the rear.
The classification isn't racist, it's reality; based on the attitudes and behaviors of each grouping.
Europe matured, leaving their tribal impulses behind while embracing individualism, Asia did not
accepting the rule of the Strong Man while Africa remained Tribal to this very day.
The consequences are obvious as choices dictate the future, be they individual or societal.

[roamer_1]

The classification isn't racist, it's reality; based on the attitudes and behaviors of each grouping.
Europe matured, leaving their tribal impulses behind while embracing individualism, Asia did not
accepting the rule of the Strong Man while Africa remained Tribal to this very day.
The consequences are obvious as choices dictate the future, be they individual or societal.

That is all true - But with all that comes different cultures with different dependencies... But not a hard-wired difference in mental capacity - Any of the above, red or yellow or black or white - Doesn't matter - ANY man seeking for a better way is capable of seeking it out and conforming to its societal and intellectual rigors in the pursuit of happiness.

Better to look to the differences between blacks and hispanics in the hood and the barrio and compare them to the successful blacks and hispanics in rural and suburban settings. And then do the same with whites in the trailer park vs. successful whites in rural and suburban settings.

I dare say the differences will be much the same across races.

[Sighlass]

Good mature discussion.

[sneakypete]

I don't think it is real. I have known black folks that are sharp as a tack, and I know white folks that are as dumb as a box of hammers.

The primary problem is not fixed by sterilizing black women (what a horrid thought). The problem is getting black fathers to remain in the home. Literally the very same can be said of whites.

@roamer_1

In MY NSHO,the root of this problem is that the "Cradle to the grave" welfare system not only does NOT provide any incentitive for the people it enslaves,that's right,I DID say "enslaves",to do better. Or to do anything really,other than lay back and try to live for free while commiting an occasional minor crime to get some more spending money.

These people are essentially born into a retirement plan,are told they can never escape from that plan because the white man makes it too hard for them to learn and escape from it,and th.at if they want to survive,they MUST keep voting to keep it in place and expand it.

They are nothing less than pets owned by the DNC,and paid by the taxpaying public.

I will even go so far as to STATE AS FACT that the system is DESIGNED to keep black people ignorant and dependent on government because the reality is that IS how it works out. Like LBJ said after passing the Civil Wrongs Act of 1964,"The Democratic Party will now OWN the bleep vote for the next 100 years."

Say what you will about LBJ,but don't call him subtle.

American blacks have met their biggest enemies,and it is themselves and the politicians they vote for.

BTW,I wish that damn automatic "bleep" hadn't replaced the actual word LBJ used. People,including black people,NEED to hear that word to understand the motives of the people who screwed black people out of their futures while pretending to be their friends.

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1

In MY NSHO,the root of this problem is that the "Cradle to the grave" welfare system not only does NOT provide any incentitive for the people it enslaves,that's right,I DID say "enslaves",to do better. Or to do anything really,other than lay back and try to live for free while commiting an occasional minor crime to get some more spending money.

These people are essentially born into a retirement plan,are told they can never escape from that plan because the white man makes it too hard for them to learn and escape from it,and th.at if they want to survive,they MUST keep voting to keep it in place and expand it.

They are nothing less than pets owned by the DNC,and paid by the taxpaying public.

I will even go so far as to STATE AS FACT that the system is DESIGNED to keep black people ignorant and dependent on government because the reality is that IS how it works out. Like LBJ said after passing the Civil Wrongs Act of 1964,"The Democratic Party will now OWN the bleep vote for the next 100 years."

Say what you will about LBJ,but don't call him subtle.

American blacks have met their biggest enemies,and it is themselves and the politicians they vote for.

BTW,I wish that damn automatic "bleep" hadn't replaced the actual word LBJ used. People,including black people,NEED to hear that word to understand the motives of the people who screwed black people out of their futures while pretending to be their friends.

I am not in disagreement with what you wrote @sneakypete . In fact I am largely in agreement. Except for the centering upon blacks. I will grant you that the liberal experiment started there. But the barrio is the same damn thing, as is the rez, as is the trailer park.

I could take you up the canyon here, up to Hungry Horse, and show your nearly an entire town of white redneck trailer trash - Don't get me wrong... I ain't cussing em too much as many are my friends. Many have a hard luck story. Reasons abound.

But the fact of the matter is that it is the same thing as the hood or the barrio... Full of thieves and drugs and booze and unwed mothers and food stamps and gubmint checks.

The problem is exactly as you describe, and the outcomes are the same.

[Smokin Joe]

That is all true - But with all that comes different cultures with different dependencies... But not a hard-wired difference in mental capacity - Any of the above, red or yellow or black or white - Doesn't matter - ANY man seeking for a better way is capable of seeking it out and conforming to its societal and intellectual rigors in the pursuit of happiness.

Better to look to the differences between blacks and hispanics in the hood and the barrio and compare them to the successful blacks and hispanics in rural and suburban settings. And then do the same with whites in the trailer park vs. successful whites in rural and suburban settings.

I dare say the differences will be much the same across races.

You have a point. While some of that is a lack of economic skill, some of that isn't so much a lack of skill but a different set of rules, expectations, and resources. Those resources can't be given, because the emphasis of the culture will see them gone quickly, given the expectations and skills for working within a greater context. The rules are intended to stand in for better ones, but fall short of that mark, sometimes considerably. And the crab-basket mentality is alive and well, preventing escape. In virtually any context where people are subsidized, that holds true, regardless of other factors, be it the Rez, the ghetto, the bario, or the trailer park

[Kamaji]

IQ is not a matter of deterministic genetics.  What Murray is measuring is predominantly a matter of testing bias and a toxic subculture that intentionally devalues precisely those skills that would allow one to succeed on an IQ test.

[Slide Rule]

Bright guy and he received death threats for his apparently scientific study The Bell Curve.

New book that will no doubt raise anger. It would seem that bright guys who disagree could
point out his errors.

A two parent stable family structure would help this situation but also help a similar situation
in all segments of our society.

There is a reason this is not promoted. It would screw with the voting base. Keeping some on
a plantation is a financial interest that benefits some and hurts others.

The bright guys who could refute Murray, have a vested interest in the status quo and thus
will withhold argument/discussion and helpful suggestions and focus on hating the author.

Oh. His first book was excellent. Not comparable to anything Thomas Sowell, but of value.

[goatprairie]

I don't think it is real. I have known black folks that are sharp as a tack, and I know white folks that are as dumb as a box of hammers.

The primary problem is not fixed by sterilizing black women (what a horrid thought). The problem is getting black fathers to remain in the home. Literally the very same can be said of whites.

Good luck with that. Ever think that maybe one of the problems with getting black males to stay home is low IQ?

[goatprairie]

Unfortunately this observation, which I share, is not relevant to Murray's case.  His work predicts nothing about any individual, it describes aggregate populations.  What is true of an aggregate population need not be true for any specific member of that population.That problem might be less getting fathers (of any race) to remain in the home and more of getting mothers (of any race) to stop kicking them out.

"That problem might be less getting fathers (of any race) to remain in the home"

Well, two problems (1) low IQ is probably involved as far as black males spraying but not staying and (2) do you think a father who would like to scram at the first opportunity would make a good father?
Neuter and sterilize.

[goatprairie]

IQ is not a matter of deterministic genetics.  What Murray is measuring is predominantly a matter of testing bias and a toxic subculture that intentionally devalues precisely those skills that would allow one to succeed on an IQ test.

What? What kind of gibberish is that? If IQ tests didn't prove anything, then there would be pockets of black America that achieve and exceed over other demographics. But there aren't any.
The only black Americans who achieve and succeed at or near the level of whites and east Asians are the black immigrants from the Caribbean or Africa. But they're a very small part of the total American black population.
You can shout about changing the culture all you want. The problem is IQ also affects/predicts culture. People with IQs in the 70s and low 80s aren't going to change what they're doing except at gunpoint.
Sterilize and neuter.

[goatprairie]

Bright guy and he received death threats for his apparently scientific study The Bell Curve.

New book that will no doubt raise anger. It would seem that bright guys who disagree could
point out his errors.

A two parent stable family structure would help this situation but also help a similar situation
in all segments of our society.

There is a reason this is not promoted. It would screw with the voting base. Keeping some on
a plantation is a financial interest that benefits some and hurts others.

The bright guys who could refute Murray, have a vested interest in the status quo and thus
will withhold argument/discussion and helpful suggestions and focus on hating the author.

Oh. His first book was excellent. Not comparable to anything Thomas Sowell, but of value.

Name the bright guys who can refute Murray. Maybe there aren't any. I read Steven Jay Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man" which he wrote more than a decade before The Bell Curve came out. He wrote it to supposedly debunk people like Rushton and Jensen who had produced studies showing the IQ gaps between the races.
Gould's book was unscientific and didn't disprove anything. He more or less made up his mind to "prove" that IQ tests were too faulty to show differences between the races.
The standard response of any of the people objecting to what Jensen, Rushton, Murray and Herrnstein published was to attack them personally without disproving any of their findings.
I suspect most libs know that IQ is real and that there is a standard deviation difference between blacks and whites.
But saying that publicly would destroy the Dem Party and liberalism both of which have a vested interest in making blacks believe all their problems are caused by evil, racist Whitey.

[Kamaji]

What? What kind of gibberish is that? If IQ tests didn't prove anything, then there would be pockets of black America that achieve and exceed over other demographics. But there aren't any.
The only black Americans who achieve and succeed at or near the level of whites and east Asians are the black immigrants from the Caribbean or Africa. But they're a very small part of the total American black population.
You can shout about changing the culture all you want. The problem is IQ also affects/predicts culture. People with IQs in the 70s and low 80s aren't going to change what they're doing except at gunpoint.
Sterilize and neuter.

Nonsense.

[sneakypete]

You have a point. While some of that is a lack of economic skill, some of that isn't so much a lack of skill but a different set of rules, expectations, and resources. Those resources can't be given, because the emphasis of the culture will see them gone quickly, given the expectations and skills for working within a greater context. The rules are intended to stand in for better ones, but fall short of that mark, sometimes considerably. And the crab-basket mentality is alive and well, preventing escape. In virtually any context where people are subsidized, that holds true, regardless of other factors, be it the Rez, the ghetto, the bario, or the trailer park

@Smokin Joe


I KNOW I am going to get flamed for this,but watch me pretend to care.

IMNSHO,one of the biggest things holding his and her Panics back is Catholicism. They just flat have too many children. Children they can't afford to have and care for,and then have enough left over to keep the children out of the job market so they can go to schools and learn trades that will raise their economic status.

[goatprairie]

Nonsense.

Denial is not just a river in Africa.

[Absalom]

That is all true - But with all that comes different cultures with different dependencies... But not a hard-wired difference in mental capacity - Any of the above, red or yellow or black or white - Doesn't matter - ANY man seeking for a better way is capable of seeking it out and conforming to its societal and intellectual rigors in the pursuit of happiness.
Better to look to the differences between blacks and hispanics in the hood and the barrio and compare them to the successful blacks and Hispanics in rural and suburban settings. And then do the same with whites in the trailer park vs. successful whites in rural and suburban settings.
I dare say the differences will be much the same across races.

-----------------------
@ Roamer, your distinctions are on the mark.
As Plato wisely asserted, our Psyche (Soul), affirms Man's individualism, allowing him
to rise above class, group or tribe. All he needs is courage and resolve. So a tale.
More than a century past, an impoverished young Black female from our South,
then virulently racist, had a dream to become a singer.
So she pursued her vision, being self taught/trained over time.
Years later she appeared on the Stage of the Metropolitan Opera in NYC as the lead
Soprano in Mozart's "Cosi Fan Tutte", being acclaimed a ranking voice in the world.
Marian Anderson was a tribute to her perseverance, talent and the wisdom of Plato.

[sneakypete]

Good luck with that. Ever think that maybe one of the problems with getting black males to stay home is low IQ?

@goatprairie @HoustonSam

I can't speak for HoustonSam,but I can speak for me,and I am calling HorseHillary on that one.

Black males in big cities don't "Stay home" because for the most part,they don't HAVE homes. What they have is a few black women they got pregnant who are living in goobermint housing because they gave birth to children and claim to not know who the father is. They not only live rent-free,but they even get a check for each child they have.

Meanwhile the baby daddy will come by occasionally to spend a few nights there for sex,and then move on to the next baby mama before the welfare agents come by and catch a man living in the house and cause they to either be evicted or to lose money.

The welfare system not only knows this,they ENCOURAGE it because it is populated by air-head leftists who think having a father come around occcainally to get laid and snooze is a good thing for the little chillruns.

I have had black males I worked with at a shipyard tell me that I should do this too,and would actually bragg about how much extra money they were pulling in from the baby mamas and from not having to pay rent or buy groceries. A few even told me it gave them enough money to buy rental property to rent out and pull in even more money.

The left CREATED this system purposely and it is nothing less than a new form of slavery.