Pence unloads on Trump: Former VP says 'nothing more un-American than idea that one person could cho

[Lando Lincoln]

@kevindavis

I'm not getting into a back and forth here but SCOTUS did not do their duty, in my view.  Texas challenged the results in 4 battleground states, ie, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Missouri.  Amicus Briefs (or similar) were filed in the case by numerous other states supporting the Texas suit.  SCOTUS, in turn, ruled “Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its elections.”

If a state does not have standing to challenge a National Election to SCOTUS, where does that state turn?

So, here we are.  I voted for President Trump in both elections while not being a fan in many ways.  But, again in my view, our nation became a greatly lessened Republic through that election and its aftermath.  We have a shadow government in place because surely the declining half-wit Chief Executive is not running anything.  And SCOTUS did its part in not having the courage to review the full merits of the Texas suit. 

[Bigun]

@kevindavis

I'm not getting into a back and forth here but SCOTUS did not do their duty, in my view.  Texas challenged the results in 4 battleground states, ie, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Missouri.  Amicus Briefs (or similar) were filed in the case by numerous other states supporting the Texas suit.  SCOTUS, in turn, ruled “Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its elections.”

If a state does not have standing to challenge a National Election to SCOTUS, where does that state turn?

So, here we are.  I voted for President Trump in both elections while not being a fan in many ways.  But, again in my view, our nation became a greatly lessened Republic through that election and its aftermath.  We have a shadow government in place because surely the declining half-wit Chief Executive is not running anything.  And SCOTUS did its part in not having the courage to review the full merits of the Texas suit.

Correct in every detail!  You can read it for yourself here

[Lando Lincoln]

Correct in every detail!  You can read it for yourself here

Thanks for the link! 

Exactly.  Unfathomable to me that SCOTUS rejected the case.  Where else is a State to turn?

[HoustonSam]

That was a nice moral high ground sidestep, but the reality is that Pence regardless of which way he went WAS singlehandedly picking a President.

Certifying a vote means there were no shenanigans, of which there were many. Pence chose to ignore them, and he did indeed pick a President.

The only thing Pence had the authority to certify was arithmetic adding up to at least 270.  The votes were certified by the states, and that is where the fault lies for tolerating shenanigans.

To argue otherwise implies that the Constitution empowers the President of the Senate, who is frequently a candidate for POTUS or VP, to influence how the EVs are counted in his own election, and it implies that a Federal official could unilaterally refuse to accept a certified state outcome.  No one believes either is a good idea or what the founders or authors of later statues intended and there is no basis for either idea anywhere in the Constitution or later statutes.  But a Federal Official throwing out a state result might be exactly the kind of Federal takeover of elections the Ds are pushing for.

It was unforgivably stupid for Pence to say he was proud of what he did.  He should have said simply that he had no authority to do anything else, and that he fully supports state-level reform efforts to restore security and credibility to elections.  FWIW I won't be casting any votes for him in the future either.

[Lando Lincoln]

The only thing Pence had the authority to certify was arithmetic adding up to at least 270.  The votes were certified by the states, and that is where the fault lies for tolerating shenanigans.

To argue otherwise implies that the Constitution empowers the President of the Senate, who is frequently a candidate for POTUS or VP, to influence how the EVs are counted in his own election, and it implies that a Federal official could unilaterally refuse to accept a certified state outcome.  No one believes either is a good idea or what the founders or authors of later statues intended and there is no basis for either idea anywhere in the Constitution or later statutes.  But a Federal Official throwing out a state result might be exactly the kind of Federal takeover of elections the Ds are pushing for.

It was unforgivably stupid for Pence to say he was proud of what he did.  He should have said simply that he had no authority to do anything else, and that he fully supports state-level reform efforts to restore security and credibility to elections.  FWIW I won't be casting any votes for him in the future either.

I share your viewpoint.  Every word of it.

The failure occurred with the Roberts SCOTUS.

[HoustonSam]

@kevindavis

I'm not getting into a back and forth here but SCOTUS did not do their duty, in my view.  Texas challenged the results in 4 battleground states, ie, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Missouri.  Amicus Briefs (or similar) were filed in the case by numerous other states supporting the Texas suit.  SCOTUS, in turn, ruled “Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its elections.”

If a state does not have standing to challenge a National Election to SCOTUS, where does that state turn?

So, here we are.  I voted for President Trump in both elections while not being a fan in many ways.  But, again in my view, our nation became a greatly lessened Republic through that election and its aftermath.  We have a shadow government in place because surely the declining half-wit Chief Executive is not running anything.  And SCOTUS did its part in not having the courage to review the full merits of the Texas suit.

Extremely well-stated @Lando Lincoln.  SCOTUS abdicated its duty and the country is being harmed as a result.  Their decision reduces Presidential elections to whatever patchwork quilt of stunts local D officials are able to get away with, rather than credible expressions of the people's will for the Chief Executive office.

[Lando Lincoln]

Extremely well-stated @Lando Lincoln.  SCOTUS abdicated its duty and the country is being harmed as a result.  Their decision reduces Presidential elections to whatever patchwork quilt of stunts local D officials are able to get away with, rather than credible expressions of the people's will for the Chief Executive office.

And further, malicious management of a Presidential election in one state can subvert or negate the results of another.  Seems to be a "cognizable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its elections”, judicial, Constitutionally and otherwise.

[sneakypete]

I share your viewpoint.  Every word of it.

The failure occurred with the Roberts SCOTUS.

@Lando Lincoln

That's the sort of thing you can expect when you have a  homo president who is raging alcoholic and PROBABLY a closeted child molester nominate and seat one of his "Play Pals".

I  know this will make heads explode,and nothing could make me happier that to state the obvious,which is that Bush and Biden are freaking interchangeable because there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between them.

Well,Biden MAY be slightly more moral. At least he doesn't wave a Bible around and try to pretend he is righteous.

[Right_in_Virginia]

You ought to parse though the Election thread that night, and witness what both @Right_in_Virginia and I watched and said while the election tallies mysteriously stalled in 6 or 7 key states at about 12:30 a.m. my time....   and then suddenly starts reversing in all those states toward Biden simultaneously.  It's no mystery or accident why many polls are showing that 30% of population believes this election was stolen.

To me...you are the one coming off as a jack ass, and FOS.

 

Yup, @catfish1957 and I watched the election being stolen live and unfiltered.  There really are no words to express the experience ... the moment you realized  what they were doing when they "stopped counting". 

In each of the states that "stopped counting" Trump was way ahead.  We were hanging out waiting for them to call those states for Trump.  Instead of calling the states for Trump, we heard simultaneous announcement after announcement that state after state after state after state after state had "stopped counting".   ---  My head still explodes a little when I remember this moment.

Just one example ...  Trump was ahead by 650,000 + votes when PA "stopped counting"  --- and started stealing ---


                                                     


It was a hell of a night, Catfish. 



@kevindavis

[Right_in_Virginia]

'I will always be proud that we did our part on that tragic day to reconvene the Congress and fulfilled our duty under the Constitution and the laws of the United States,' Pence said.

You stopped objections. Let me repeat this:  You arbitrarily stopped objections, breaking the law-- and refused to hear objections that were in writing with the signature of one Senator and one Member of the House of Reprentatives, as required. 

I don't know what the hell this lying POS is so proud of.

Go back to Indiana and run for dogcatcher.

[libertybele]

You stopped objections. Let me repeat this:  You arbitrarily stopped objections, breaking the law-- and refused to hear objections that were in writing with the signature of one Senator and one Member of the House of Reprentatives, as required. 

I don't know what the hell this lying POS is so proud of.

Go back to Indiana and run for dogcatcher.

Amen!!

[HoustonSam]

You stopped objections. Let me repeat this:  You arbitrarily stopped objections, breaking the law-- and refused to hear objections that were in writing with the signature of one Senator and one Member of the House of Reprentatives, as required. 

False.

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-democrats-object-more-states-2016-republicans-2020-1561407

https://www.npr.org/sections/insurrection-at-the-capitol/2021/01/07/954380156/here-are-the-republicans-who-objected-to-the-electoral-college-count

https://ballotpedia.org/Counting_of_electoral_votes_(January_6-7,_2021)

https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/2020

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Electoral_College_vote_count

The only states for which Senators submitted written objections were Arizona and Pennsylvania.  Since House members had also submitted written objections for these states, in both instances the Joint Session adjourned to separate sessions of each chamber, in accord with the Electoral Count Act of 1887.

The demonstration occurred during the consideration of the objections to AZ's EVs in each chamber; the objections to PA's EVs took place in each chamber after the Joint Session re-convened when the demonstration had been cleared.

Please cite a reference for the assertion that written objections from members of both chambers were ignored.

[sneakypete]

Yup, @catfish1957 and I watched the election being stolen live and unfiltered.  There really are no words to express the experience ... the moment you realized  what they were doing when they "stopped counting". 

In each of the states that "stopped counting" Trump was way ahead.  We were hanging out waiting for them to call those states for Trump.  Instead of calling the states for Trump, we heard simultaneous announcement after announcement that state after state after state after state after state had "stopped counting".   ---  My head still explodes a little when I remember this moment.

Just one example ...  Trump was ahead by 650,000 + votes when PA "stopped counting"  --- and started stealing ---


                                                     


It was a hell of a night, Catfish. 


@Right_in_Virginia  @catfish1957

Count me as a fellow watcher that night,who ended up going to bed convinced that Trump had won because he was so far ahead there was no logical way to catch him.

Then the vote counting stopped.

People should be hanged in public over this.

[sneakypete]

You stopped objections. Let me repeat this:  You arbitrarily stopped objections, breaking the law-- and refused to hear objections that were in writing with the signature of one Senator and one Member of the House of Reprentatives, as required. 

I don't know what the hell this lying POS is so proud of.

Go back to Indiana and run for dogcatcher.

@Right_in_Virginia

Better yet,take a long walk off a short pier.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Unbelievably ridiculous to think that the VP could overturn the will of the people. Do people really think the Framers would have written that in? That's insane.

[sneakypete]

Unbelievably ridiculous to think that the VP could overturn the will of the people. Do people really think the Framers would have written that in? That's insane.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

It's also hard to believe that an illegal alien who grew up in a Muslim household and who was fathered by a Kenyan could become president too,but it happened.

Not to mention a totally amoral draft-dodger.

Or the alcoholic homosexual son of a father who was one of our lousiest Presidents.

Or a senile professional criminal.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Unbelievably ridiculous to think that the VP could overturn the will of the people. Do people really think the Framers would have written that in? That's insane.

No one expected --- or asked --- Pence to overturn the election. Everyone understood Pence served as a bookkeeper on January 6.   He was simply asked to uphold the Electors Clause of the Constitution and the law regulating the recording of electoral tallies in the Congress.

Pence broke with the Electors Clause of the US Constitution by denying state legislators their right to submit legally tallied electors when he denied their request for 10 days to review how the electors were tallied.  --  Remember @Weird Tolkienish Figure the only unmovable date for Presidential elections is set in the Constitution:  January 20 at noon of the year following the election.   January 6 is an arbitrary date set by Congress --- Cruz even gave the VP additional cover (if the Constitution isn't enough) by also requesting a 10 day review period, which Pence also ignored.

Pence then broke with his legal requirement under "3 U.S. Code § 15 - Counting Electoral Votes in Congress" which states: "Upon such reading of any such certificate or paper, the President of the Senate shall call for objections ...".  When the Congress reconvened, Pence  ---  without legal basis or precedent --- stopped all objections and went on to record tallies he knew were in question and would have been challenged.

Pence did nothing noble on January 6.  He threw a middle finger at the Constitution, 3 U.S.Code § 15  and every citizen of the United States.

He should not be defended; Pence should be shunned.

[Right_in_Virginia]

@Right_in_Virginia

Better yet,take a long walk off a short pier.

I could live with that @sneakypete 

[catfish1957]

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

It's also hard to believe that an illegal alien who grew up in a Muslim household and who was fathered by a Kenyan could become president too,but it happened.

Not to mention a totally amoral draft-dodger.

Or the alcoholic homosexual son of a father who was one of our lousiest Presidents.

Or a senile professional criminal.

Sad profiling POTUS of the past 20 years, versus the 1st 20 years of the Republic.

Honor, integrity, and common good meant something back then.  I mean is this the best we can do?

[sneakypete]

Sad profiling POTUS of the past 20 years, versus the 1st 20 years of the Republic.

Honor, integrity, and common good meant something back then. I mean is this the best we can do?

@catfish1957

No,but it WILL be the best we ARE doing for as long as we remain so complainant that we just can't be bothered to do better.

Our nation is compromised to the point of collapse and destruction,and we have nobody to blame but ourselves because the majority of us just can't be bothered with spending our free time on something as boring as politics.

 The opportunists and the self-centered will continue to destroy our nation as long as there is profit/power in it for them,and we let them do it with no consequences.

[Lando Lincoln]

Yup, @catfish1957 and I watched the election being stolen live and unfiltered.  There really are no words to express the experience ... the moment you realized  what they were doing when they "stopped counting". 

In each of the states that "stopped counting" Trump was way ahead.  We were hanging out waiting for them to call those states for Trump.  Instead of calling the states for Trump, we heard simultaneous announcement after announcement that state after state after state after state after state had "stopped counting".   ---  My head still explodes a little when I remember this moment.

Just one example ...  Trump was ahead by 650,000 + votes when PA "stopped counting"  --- and started stealing ---


                                                     


It was a hell of a night, Catfish. 



@kevindavis

It happened exactly as you state. I was incredulous as many were. It started with the surprise Arizona call as though it was the signal that the fix was on.

[Smokin Joe]

It happened exactly as you state. I was incredulous as many were. It started with the surprise Arizona call as though it was the signal that the fix was on.

This time the Democrats had a back-up plan. I am convinced that all the various forms of fraud were present for Hillary, too. There was the glowing run--up to the election in the MSM, replete with polls that sure seemed skewed from out here in flyover country.
And I think the fix was in, but the Democrats underestimated the resonance Trump found with ordinary, workaday Americans, his ability to harness the frustration with (and even anger toward) a government that has been seriously out of touch with its employers, and there just wasn't enough margin set to prevail.

They got the points spread wrong, and she lost, despite their efforts.

Not this time.

This time, they'd done their homework, and knew which States (with lagging counts) would have to be 'converted' to win, so they shut down those states, re-did the tabulation algorithms, and proceeded to do what Democrats do when they don't have a marketable idea--cheat. And cheat they did.

I have little doubt that (so far, anyway) that is the crime of the century, (not far behind the murderous responses to COVID), but still yet to tally all its fruits.

I do not know what the solution is, but the problem is clear.

[HoustonSam]

No one expected --- or asked --- Pence to overturn the election. Everyone understood Pence served as a bookkeeper on January 6.   He was simply asked to uphold the Electors Clause of the Constitution and the law regulating the recording of electoral tallies in the Congress.

Pence broke with the Electors Clause of the US Constitution by denying state legislators their right to submit legally tallied electors when he denied their request for 10 days to review how the electors were tallied.  --  Remember @Weird Tolkienish Figure the only unmovable date for Presidential elections is set in the Constitution:  January 20 at noon of the year following the election.   January 6 is an arbitrary date set by Congress --- Cruz even gave the VP additional cover (if the Constitution isn't enough) by also requesting a 10 day review period, which Pence also ignored.

Pence then broke with his legal requirement under "3 U.S. Code § 15 - Counting Electoral Votes in Congress" which states: "Upon such reading of any such certificate or paper, the President of the Senate shall call for objections ...".  When the Congress reconvened, Pence  ---  without legal basis or precedent --- stopped all objections and went on to record tallies he knew were in question and would have been challenged.

Pence did nothing noble on January 6.  He threw a middle finger at the Constitution, 3 U.S.Code § 15  and every citizen of the United States.

He should not be defended; Pence should be shunned.

@Right_in_Virginia consistently ignores the fact that the electoral votes counted during the Joint Session of Congress beginning January 6 2021 had all been certified by the respective states, and furthermore all states except Wisconsin had certified their results before the "safe harbor deadline" of December 8 2020, which legally obligated Congress to accept the state's electoral votes.   Whether or not we like the procedures used by each of the states, each state's results were certified in accord with its own state law, hence the electors for each state in fact were selected in a "Manner which the Legislature thereof [did] direct."   I agree with many that some of those results should not have been certified, but in fact they were.

Furthermore Right_in_Virginia continues to ignore the obvious fact that the position she advocates would enable Democrat state legislators, acting with no official authority other than their titles, to recall certified electoral votes for Republican candidates on any manufactured fictional pretense or even no pretense at all.  And everyone who reads this board knows that Democrat state legislators would do exactly that.

https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,440396.msg2447849.html#msg2447849

Right_in_Virginia consistently fails to cite any Constitutional or statutory justification for the idea that a request by state legislators to return the electoral votes of their states can be considered.  Neither the Twelfth Amendment nor the Electoral Vote Count Act of 1887 provides for such a request or even mentions it as a possibility, not when requested as a legal act of the entire state legislature and certainly not when requested by smaller groups of legislators.  Nor is any authority given to the President of the Senate to act on any such requests.

https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,440396.msg2447974.html#msg2447974

Right_in_Virginia continues a false account of the actual events of the Joint Session of Congress, maintaining that no objections to state electoral votes were allowed once Congress re-convened after the demonstration; in fact contemporaneous media reports prove that objections to PA's electoral votes were raised and fully considered after Congress re-convened.

https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,440396.msg2447967.html#msg2447967

Each of these points has already been made to Right_in_Virginia; she has completely failed to rebut any of them and merely repeats her erroneous premises and fallacious conclusions.  Her continued insistence on a theory supported by neither Constitution nor statute, which would set a disastrous political precedent and is based in part on a counter-factual narrative, simply creates confusion.  Her position on this subject should be actively rejected as often as she presents it.

[HoustonSam]

It happened exactly as you state. I was incredulous as many were. It started with the surprise Arizona call as though it was the signal that the fix was on.

That was my observation as well.  What I remember most clearly is remarking to my son, a first-time voter, that Michigan had gone for Trump by a significant margin with only Red counties remaining to report; yet the next day Michigan was Blue.  Apparently we are to believe all those Red counties reported in late votes with overwhelming Blue majorities.

[Lando Lincoln]

What confirmed the reality of the situation for me was a post right here by our good friend @massadvj.  He essentially stated, “We are witnessing the theft of an American Presidential election.”