Mike Pence Heckled at Summit With Chants of ‘Traitor!’ (VIDEO)

[libertybele]

Pence ended all objections when they returned from surviving the insurrection @libertybele .  (There were a few Rs in the Senate and House who almost lost their minds over this.)   

If I wore tin foil on my head, I might be inclined to believe this was one of the goals of the pre-planned "insurrection".   

Keep in mind January 6th is not political holy grail.  It is a date set by an act of congress for convenience.... and could have been moved to Jan 7 or Jan 16. (I'd have preferred Jan 16 to honor the request from legislators in five states).

Our political holy grail for presidential elections is actually Jan 20th at noon.

 I believe it was a pre-planned insurrection and both Pence and Pelosi were aware of it.

Ultimately, bottom line, Pence absolutely FAILED and I believe he was party to the ultimate goal -- getting rid of Trump.                                     

[Killer Clouds]

I've said from the very beginning that Trump was very horrible at picking personnel and Pence was just another horrible choice.

[libertybele]

I've said from the very beginning that Trump was very horrible at picking personnel and Pence was just another horrible choice.

I don't believe Pence was Trump's original pick, I believe he was given a list of recommendations and urged to select Pence. In my opinion there was only one person who he should not have overlooked and that was Cruz.  However, I doubt that whomever made the recommendations to Trump included Cruz on that list.  Not a chance.

[HoustonSam]

???? Weren't those objections submitted after the certification on Jan 6??                       

The objections were submitted during the vote counting on January 6, exactly as required by law in the citation you provided.

If your point is that this procedure allows for state-certified EVs to be replaced by an act of Congress, then yes you're correct.  But the point of this thread is whether or not Mike Pence as President of the Senate had authority to do anything other than count the state-certified EVs.  No one has cited any provision of the Constitution or the law indicating that he had such authority.

[dfwgator]

I've said from the very beginning that Trump was very horrible at picking personnel and Pence was just another horrible choice.

The problem is that the pickings were slim from the beginning.  The Republican Party wasn't going to change overnight just because Trump won.   Hopefully now, thanks to Trump the tide is finally turning within the GOP.

[libertybele]

The objections were submitted during the vote counting on January 6, exactly as required by law in the citation you provided.

If your point is that this procedure allows for state-certified EVs to be replaced by an act of Congress, then yes you're correct.  But the point of this thread is whether or not Mike Pence as President of the Senate had authority to do anything other than count the state-certified EVs.  No one has cited any provision of the Constitution or the law indicating that he had such authority.

He has the absolute authority to take up a vote to any objections BEFORE the certification. 

[HoustonSam]

Bingo. That, my dear HoustonSam, is what Pence had the constitutional authority to initiate. Yes, it may have ultimately failed after the Senate and House voted after deliberating...but making that effort to right the wrong was the "honorable" thing to do. Pence failed and chose dishonor and disloyalty to the constitution. As others mentioned earlier, you should refresh yourself with the Constitution AND the relevant statutes applicable to the counting of electoral votes.

Our letters must have crossed in the mail @Mesaclone; as you can see in my post immediately above yours, the provisions for objection to EVs actually were carried out fully in accord with the law.  Since they were carried out, obviously Pence did not fail to carry them out.

I await further enlightenment from you on the Constitution and the relevant statutes.  All you have to do is cite the specific text which gives the President of the Senate the authority to do anything other than what Pence did.

[HoustonSam]

The ones with the power to question the legality of the certification did so ... wrapped in the authority of the US Constitution which does not stipulate a number for dissent.  Dozens of legislators within each of five states threw a red flag on recording potentially illegal electoral totals.

If Pence lacked the brass to send the electors back to the legislatures for recertification, as requested,  he could have presented the letters to the Senate and House of Representatives and let THEM decide.

But Mike Pence chose -- he chose -- to ignore them.  Pence formally cast his lot with deep state.  Time will prove his self-inflicted wound was politically fatal.

So continue your passive-aggressive personal insults of me.  I totally appreciate it's all you've got.

You have completely failed to provide any citation from the Constitution or from statues that supports the position you've taken, neither regarding the authority of the President of the Senate nor of State Legislators; you have offered no rebuttal to the fact that the EVs were all certified by the respective states; and you've totally ignored the disastrous political implications of the precedent for which you are arguing.

But if it takes some of the sting away to characterize these facts as "passive-aggressive personal insults", that's OK with me.

[Fishrrman]

Pence's political career is... over and done.
Once you throw it all away as he did, it's never comin' back.
He'd best retire quietly to that nice place he bought back home.

[libertybele]

Pence's political career is... over and done.
Once you throw it all away as he did, it's never comin' back.
He'd best retire quietly to that nice place he bought back home.

Agreed.  He FAILED miserably.  IMHO he was well aware of the insurrection which interrupted any objections from Cruz and Hawley.

[Right_in_Virginia]

The objections were submitted during the vote counting on January 6, exactly as required by law in the citation you provided.

Nope, it was not.  After the break for the insurrection, Pence stopped all objections to state electors.  Ted Cruz, for one, was incredulous that Pence was gaveling him to silence ...Cruz even had a representative with him, as required for objection.

Pence just kept banging that gavel.

Pence did NOT do exactly, or even close to, what is required by law.  He shut down all objection, and he did so knowing there was at least one senator and one representive lined up for each objection.

Pence pissed all over the Constitution by ignoring the requests from five state legislatures and all over the rule of law by shutting off objection to recording electoral counts on Jan 6.

You get your own opinion, not your own facts.

[Right_in_Virginia]

You have completely failed to provide any citation from the Constitution or from statues that supports the position you've taken, neither regarding the authority of the President of the Senate nor of State Legislators; you have offered no rebuttal to the fact that the EVs were all certified by the respective states; and you've totally ignored the disastrous political implications of the precedent for which you are arguing.

But if it takes some of the sting away to characterize these facts as "passive-aggressive personal insults", that's OK with me.

How many times do I have to quote the Electors Clause of the Constitution of the United States to you?  The beauty of the clause is --- it doesn't change no matter how many times you ask the same question and no matter how tight a pretzel you twist yourself into.

Why don't you tell ME how I've gotten the clause wrong?

Come on, cowboy, here is your moment.

[libertybele]

Pence's political career is... over and done.
Once you throw it all away as he did, it's never comin' back.
He'd best retire quietly to that nice place he bought back home.

He is/was obviously hoping for the presidency in 2024.      That's not going to happen! I've never liked the man from the very beginning.  There was just something 'amiss' about his character and I was right!

[Mesaclone]

Nope, it was not.  After the break for the insurrection, Pence stopped all objections to state electors.  Ted Cruz, for one, was incredulous that Pence was gaveling him to silence ...Cruz even had a representative with him, as required for objection.

Pence just kept banging that gavel.

Pence did NOT do exactly, or even close to, what is required by law.  He shut down all objection, and he did so knowing there was at least one senator and one representive lined up for each objection.

Pence pissed all over the Constitution by ignoring the requests from five state legislatures and all over the rule of law by shutting off objection to recording electoral counts on Jan 6.

You get your own opinion, not your own facts.

Had he recognized Mr. Cruz and his representative, I might agree with you that he'd met his constitutional obligation. He did not do this. As these objections were quite credible, and meant to give state legislatures an opportunity to relook certifications which were now being questioned by members of said legislatures. He chose the path of cowardice. I think he is, essentially, a good man who was not up to the historical moment. Courage is not common, as this whole episode demonstrated.

[HoustonSam]

He has the absolute authority to take up a vote to any objections BEFORE the certification.

You seem to be confused about this @libertybele.  The states certify their results in the period between the general election and the meeting of the electoral college; the certification is intended to inform the electors.  In the event of a controversy or challenge within the state the "safe harbor deadline" holds that if the challenge is resolved according to that state's laws no less than six days before the meeting of the electoral college then the resolved results are conclusive and Congress must accept the state's EVs.  In the recent election all states had certified their results by December 11, and the electoral college met December 14; only Wisconsin failed to meet the "safe harbor deadline" for the recent election.

The statute you cited regulates how the certified EVs are counted during a joint session of Congress on January 6.  Congress has no authority to object in any way to EVs at any point before they are opened and counted on January 6, nor is there any opportunity to entertain such an objection.  In fact all the results are certified *before* any EVs are even cast.  And the objection procedure you highlighted is now supposed to be only for EVs which do not benefit from the safe harbor deadline.  The EVs of both AZ and PA were protected by the safe harbor deadline so even had Congress not recognized them that act probably would have failed to stand up at SCOTUS.

Look, I'm convinced the Ds cheated and will do so anytime they can get away with it.  I don't think we know who truly won the last election because I have no confidence that fair results were certified in several states.  But they were certified and that fact removes all authority for anyone to do anything other than carry out the objection procedure you cited.  And that procedure was carried out even though it probably should not have been because both AZ and PA were within the safe harbor.

I would like to believe that a legal result is always a true and fair result.  But it isn't.  And perversely insisting that we can perfect the law by reading our own preferences into it, like pretending that Mike Pence shirked authority and is now a coward and traitor, is the exact sort of lying that we criticize liberal judges for doing.

[libertybele]

Had he recognized Mr. Cruz and his representative, I might agree with you that he'd met his constitutional obligation. He did not do this. As these objections were quite credible, and meant to give state legislatures an opportunity to relook certifications which were now being questioned by members of said legislatures. He chose the path of cowardice. I think he is, essentially, a good man who was not up to the historical moment. Courage is not common, as this whole episode demonstrated.

One of my points of contention as well.  Cruz was silenced, interrupted, ignored. The insurrection was in part responsible.  I still believe it was planned. Hawley was not recognized either.  So there was both a Senator and a Representative that should have had their say.

I agree, therefore Pence did not do his job. The outcome may have eventually been the same, but we will never know.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Had he recognized Mr. Cruz and his representative, I might agree with you that he'd met his constitutional obligation. He did not do this. As these objections were quite credible, and meant to give state legislatures an opportunity to relook certifications which were now being questioned by members of said legislatures. He chose the path of cowardice. I think he is, essentially, a good man who was not up to the historical moment. Courage is not common, as this whole episode demonstrated.

Let me be clear @Mesaclone  --- Pence did not meet his constitutional requirement under the Electors Clause when he ignored five letters from five separate state legislatures advising the electors for their states may not have been certified legally and a review and possible recertification should be granted. 

Pence did not meet his legal requirement under 3 U.S. Code § 15 - Counting Electoral Votes in Congress when he shut down any and all objections to the electors as certified.

Where we differ is I don't think Pence is a good man.  I think he's a liar and a saboteur.

[libertybele]

You seem to be confused about this @libertybele.  The states certify their results in the period between the general election and the meeting of the electoral college; the certification is intended to inform the electors.  In the event of a controversy or challenge within the state the "safe harbor deadline" holds that if the challenge is resolved according to that state's laws no less than six days before the meeting of the electoral college then the resolved results are conclusive and Congress must accept the state's EVs.  In the recent election all states had certified their results by December 11, and the electoral college met December 14; only Wisconsin failed to meet the "safe harbor deadline" for the recent election.

The statute you cited regulates how the certified EVs are counted during a joint session of Congress on January 6.  Congress has no authority to object in any way to EVs at any point before they are opened and counted on January 6, nor is there any opportunity to entertain such an objection.  In fact all the results are certified *before* any EVs are even cast.  And the objection procedure you highlighted is now supposed to be only for EVs which do not benefit from the safe harbor deadline.  The EVs of both AZ and PA were protected by the safe harbor deadline so even had Congress not recognized them that act probably would have failed to stand up at SCOTUS.

Look, I'm convinced the Ds cheated and will do so anytime they can get away with it.  I don't think we know who truly won the last election because I have no confidence that fair results were certified in several states.  But they were certified and that fact removes all authority for anyone to do anything other than carry out the objection procedure you cited.  And that procedure was carried out even though it probably should not have been because both AZ and PA were within the safe harbor.

I would like to believe that a legal result is always a true and fair result.  But it isn't.  And perversely insisting that we can perfect the law by reading our own preferences into it, like pretending that Mike Pence shirked authority and is now a coward and traitor, is the exact sort of lying that we criticize liberal judges for doing.

Pence had the duty to ask for objections.  He denied hearing those objections.  He shirked his duties. I believe it was planned that way.

I know we don't see eye to eye on this. WHY weren't those objections heard?  Why were they denied?  Gee ... it just so happens that the certification became interrupted by the insurrection and poof ... then certification was quickly done.

[libertybele]

Let me be clear @Mesaclone  --- Pence did not meet his constitutional requirement under the Electors Clause when he ignored five letters from five separate state legislatures advising the electors for their states may not have been certified legally and a review and possible recertification should be granted. 

Pence did not meet his legal requirement under 3 U.S. Code § 15 - Counting Electoral Votes in Congress when he shut down any and all objections to the electors as certified.

Where we differ is I don't think Pence is a good man.  I think he's a liar and a saboteur.

I absolutely agree with you. 

[HoustonSam]

Nope, it was not.  After the break for the insurrection, Pence stopped all objections to state electors.  Ted Cruz, for one, was incredulous that Pence was gaveling him to silence ...Cruz even had a representative with him, as required for objection.

Pence just kept banging that gavel.

Pence did NOT do exactly, or even close to, what is required by law.  He shut down all objection, and he did so knowing there was at least one senator and one representive lined up for each objection.

Pence pissed all over the Constitution by ignoring the requests from five state legislatures and all over the rule of law by shutting off objection to recording electoral counts on Jan 6.

You get your own opinion, not your own facts.

The facts are on my side.  Despite your false assertion to the contrary, the PA objection came after Congress re-convened after the demonstration had been cleared, as described below :

The House and Senate recessed after midnight Thursday to consider an objection to Pennsylvania’s electoral votes for President-elect Joe Biden, after overwhelmingly rejecting an attempt to block the presidential election results in Arizona following riots in the US Capitol incited by President Donald Trump.

https://kvia.com/your-voice-your-vote/politics/2021/01/06/pennsylvania-objection-halts-electoral-count-again-as-house-and-senate-recess-for-debate/

Cruz withdrew his own objections to GA, MI, and NV, and no other Senator objected to those states so no objection was considered by either house.

So not only have you failed to provide Constitutional or statutory cites, and failed to rebut the fact that the EVs had all been certified by each state, and failed to respond in any way to the disastrous precedent your position would set, you don't even know what actually happened yet you continue to spout delusional bullshit.

Do you just enjoy being embarrassed?

[HoustonSam]

How many times do I have to quote the Electors Clause of the Constitution of the United States to you?  The beauty of the clause is --- it doesn't change no matter how many times you ask the same question and no matter how tight a pretzel you twist yourself into.

Why don't you tell ME how I've gotten the clause wrong?

Come on, cowboy, here is your moment.

The next time you quote the Electors Clause will be the first time you've quoted the Electors Clause.  So since this seems difficult for you, here it is :

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress; but no Senator or Representative, or person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States shall be appointed an Elector.

The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States."

Now if you'll just highlight the part that says the President of the Senate has the authority to send back to the states EVs that they have certified (to make this easier for you to find let's say electors appointed in such manner as the Legislature thereof did direct), and the part that says individual State Legislators, or Legislators acting in groups, have the authority to challenge the finished vote certifications of the Legislatures in which they sit (again, that would be to challenge electors appointed in such manner as the Legislature thereof did direct), I'll be happy to admit that you are correct.

Here's your moment, I've laid it all out for you right here, all you have to do is highlight those parts.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Ah, no one asserted Pence had the authority to decerty electors.  No one.

Pence did, however, have the authority to challenge the electors.  Instead, he shut down debate and ignored detailed letters from five (5) state legislators asking him for time to review election results.

All Pence had to do was honor these requests and send their certified electors back to the legislators for review, as requested by the ones solely responsible for chosing the electors --- as per the US Constitution.

This action alone (and we'll ignore his pattern through four years) illustrates that Pence is a coward, rooted in the deep state, and is unfit to claim the mantle of MAGA. 

Rather than try and split the Republican Party further, and experience a humiliating defeat, he should return to his new muli-million dollar home in Indiana and get the hell off the stage.

That is a wholly appropriate approach since the Supreme Court had decided to punt on the obvious irregularities.  For the sake of the nation, this is way to important then to meekly say in his role he is just a letter opener.

[HoustonSam]

Pence had the duty to ask for objections.  He denied hearing those objections.  He shirked his duties. I believe it was planned that way.

I know we don't see eye to eye on this. WHY weren't those objections heard?  Why were they denied?  Gee ... it just so happens that the certification became interrupted by the insurrection and poof ... then certification was quickly done.

As I have pointed out above to @Right_in_Virginia, with a contemporaneous cite from the news as proof, it is not true that Pence gaveled over objections to EVs when Congress re-convened after the demonstration was cleared.  The objection to the PA EVs was fully considered by both houses after the recess caused by the demonstration.  No Senator entered objections to any other state's EVs.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

The House and Senate recessed after midnight Thursday to consider an objection to Pennsylvania’s electoral votes for President-elect Joe Biden, after overwhelmingly rejecting an attempt to block the presidential election results in Arizona following riots in the US Capitol incited by President Donald Trump.

https://kvia.com/your-voice-your-vote/politics/2021/01/06/pennsylvania-objection-halts-electoral-count-again-as-house-and-senate-recess-for-debate/

From this article is this

Democrats and many of Cruz’s fellow Republicans, however, have argued there’s no role for Congress to interfere in state elections.

In light of HR1 by Congress which is trying to be forced down our throats, how do these same people justify HR1?

[Sled Dog]

If a state legislator(s) declares something stinks in Denmark and they need 10 days to review and recertify their electors, who the hell is Mike Pence --- or anyone ---  to deny them their sole right and responsibiity as per the US Constitution?

The guy who saw that state's electors chosen by methods not determined by the legislature.

Since those electors were not chosen by the laws set by the state, the electors are fraudulent.

Why is this so difficult for the Chrysophobes to admit?   

The state legislatures can't change laws on a whim.   It takes the full legislative process to change a law.   It does not matter if the legislature LIKES the way the electors were stolen, what matters is that the electors were stolen.

Only the Americans are opposed to anarchy, obviously.