Catholic bishops advance effort to deny Biden communion

[roamer_1]

Oh ok. I thought you were implying no affiliation with a religious group.

Not implied... declared. I think the brotherhood in Yeshua stretches far beyond the domain of any religious group.

If I meet a man on the trail, and find he is a brother, that is two and Yeshua is there.
If I am on my back porch arguing doctrine with the Jehovah's Witnesses, He is there.
If I go to a Baptist Bible study, or a Evangelical praise service, or the Cowboy church, he is there.

So I guess I don't see how that could be otherwise.

[skeeter]

Not implied... declared. I think the brotherhood in Yeshua stretches far beyond the domain of any religious group.

If I meet a man on the trail, and find he is a brother, that is two and Yeshua is there.
If I am on my back porch arguing doctrine with the Jehovah's Witnesses, He is there.
If I go to a Baptist Bible study, or a Evangelical praise service, or the Cowboy church, he is there.

So I guess I don't see how that could be otherwise.

I suppose we read Matthew differently. I do not belong to a church currently, either. But that’s because I can’t find one that isn’t conforming to the current social norms.

[roamer_1]

I suppose we read Matthew differently. I do not belong to a church currently, either. But that’s because I can’t find one that isn’t conforming to the current social norms.

Precisely so... And more the point of my own dilemma too - One is to submit to the Church... That is commanded. But that conformity cannot be done if one cannot adhere to the doctrine they ascribe to. So I do the best I can, placing value in elders that I find to be wise... And commit my charity to a couple churches in particular where it isn't given directly. I know no other way to function in submission when I cannot find a church that adheres to the doctrine of Yah. That, I believe should come first. I am no fan of unity in error.

[skeeter]

Precisely so... And more the point of my own dilemma too - One is to submit to the Church... That is commanded. But that conformity cannot be done if one cannot adhere to the doctrine they ascribe to. So I do the best I can, placing value in elders that I find to be wise... And commit my charity to a couple churches in particular where it isn't given directly. I know no other way to function in submission when I cannot find a church that adheres to the doctrine of Yah. That, I believe should come first. I am no fan of unity in error.

Neither am I. And I typically do not get along well in group situations of any kind. But I do miss communing with like minded biblical literalists.

[bilo]

If there is no law, what need for grace? A conundrum many fail to consider.

That's right. An organization deserves the right to it's order... The member voluntarily submits to the doctrine and dogma. Nothing requires his adherence... Except his voluntary acceptance of that which makes him a member. He can walk off at any time, and they, so long as he submits, can call him a member (or not) according to his submission.

The reason I do not have membership in any church is specifically because I cannot agree with their interpretations and cannot therefore adhere. Nor would I insult them by falsely claiming that to which I cannot adhere.

It has long been my dilemma.

In today's culture the God men worship is themselves, so they can create any rules they want.

At death they will find how foolish they truly were. The problem for us is they want to drag us down with them.

As far as Church membership goes, I find it strengthens me to fellowship with other believers.

[roamer_1]

Neither am I. And I typically do not get along well in group situations of any kind. But I do miss communing with like minded biblical literalists.

You might suppose I am likewise a Biblical literalist, and I also enjoy long-form (classical) argument and communing with like minds... Especially like-in-kind that think differently. So I go out of my way to engage, often inviting people to my porch, or attending Bible studies that are again, long form and expositional. I tend to favor Baptists and Pentecostals the most, finding their scholarship to be more intense and more open.

But any ol thing will do... I have had elders and deacons from just about every faith on my porch, excepting the Orthodox... And that more form a lack of opportunity...  I think all, or many (orgs) that follow Messiah are in possession of something precious. But I have found none that are entirely right. Some of that is Yah's economy... Diversity seems to be a signature. So I am cool with differentiation in emphasis...  But when it comes down to bare bones, I dare not offend by adhering to a doctrine I cannot fully endorse.

Perhaps some day I'll find my Church in the Wildwood, but I doubt it. He has put it in me to prefer rocky trails and high pastures to the safety of the sheepfolds.

And I say all that not to be critical of my brothers. But rather to define somehow the path I follow. When I say no one has it right, I would include me in that... But one must strive even yet, to get it right somehow, within the parameters he has laid down...

[mystery-ak]

Catholic Democrats Appeal to ‘Primacy of Conscience’ in Abortion Support

Thomas D. Williams, Ph.D. 19 Jun 2021

Sixty Catholic Democrats in Congress have written an open “Statement of Principles” explaining why the Catholic Church should not deny Holy Communion to professed Catholics who promote abortion.

The open letter was published online on June 18 to coincide with the June meeting of the U.S. bishops, who discussed, among other things, the question of “Eucharistic coherence” and conditions under which a Catholic should not present himself to receive Holy Communion.

“As legislators in the U.S. House of Representatives, we work every day to advance respect for life and the dignity of every human being,” the letter states.

The representatives declare that “the weaponization of the Eucharist to Democratic lawmakers for their support of a woman’s safe and legal access to abortion is contradictory.”

The Catholic Church has consistently taught that taking an innocent human life in abortion is always gravely evil.

more
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/06/19/catholic-democrats-appeal-primacy-conscience-abortion-support/

[mystery-ak]

“As legislators in the U.S. House of Representatives, we work every day to advance respect for life and the dignity of every human being,” the letter states.

That's not true..Your Dem Party's main platform is Pro abortion...writing and pass inglaws to make it easier and *lawful* to kill unborn babies...IOW's murderers...imho

[roamer_1]

In today's culture the God men worship is themselves, so they can create any rules they want.

At death they will find how foolish they truly were. The problem for us is they want to drag us down with them.

As far as Church membership goes, I find it strengthens me to fellowship with other believers.

That's mostly right. And I too am strengthened in fellowship. Some of that I get from non-denominational Evangelicals  I LOVE their praise. Some I get from Pentecostals. I LOVE their spirit. And some from the Baptists and the fire coming from their pulpits. But when it comes to religion, I am a meat-eater. I tire quickly of modern philosophy disguised as Word. It isn't. And in that, all I can do is go on my way.

Which is really alright. I have had my best fellowship along the trail, or in the camp. And while I hunger, I do not go hungry.

[HoustonSam]

The representatives declare that “the weaponization of the Eucharist to Democratic lawmakers for their support of a woman’s safe and legal access to abortion is contradictory.”

Have to hand it to the Ds and progressives for their gift of coining provocative, hyperbolic distortions.

I'm not Catholic, but I hope the USCCB makes clear that this discussion will take place in terms which reinforce the transcendent essentials of the Christian faith, not the false, transient doctrines of progressive ideology.

[bilo]

@bilo
@roamer_1

Bilo, you said: "I will assume that you are not an Evangelical Christian, or Catholic, based on your post."
__________________________________

No, Bilo, I belong to a Catholic church and have taught a Bible class there; we stopped about the time the virus hit.  I have taught Bible classes in Missionary Baptist Churches, Baptist Churches, a good part of my adult life.  I was the pianist at three Baptist churches. 

Some want "others" to act a certain way.  That is the point;  you may do what you want; interpret the Bible the way you want.  You can only decide for yourself, not others.

Women own their bodies.  Men ruled women as their "property" (I say men owned women as their furniture - would change their furniture when they wanted a different looking piece of furniture.)  Men were stronger than women, so men "ruled".  This changed when Jesus Christ came and honored women. 

Back to present day individuals:
Remember, individuals make individual decisions that affect no one but the individual self.  These "individual" choices do not involve other people as the choice would not be "individual" if others are involved. 

A subject we cannot discuss on this forum:  I think we are in the end times and have reasons for that.  Maybe I will see you and friend roamer in the near future.  Want coffee?  Okay, @Cyber Liberty, will have the coffee, and beer.

Nothing could be further than the truth. The "clump of cells" in the woman's uterus will become a human being. The church aspect of this came in because biden is openly disregarding the teaching of the church you are a member of. In teaching your Bible class you may want to exam Exodus 21:22-23 it's not hard to understand. Your church is on sound Biblical footing condemning abortion and those member who are pro-abortion should be denied communion.

[bilo]

How about a religious group?

YHWH is the name for GOD. 

[bilo]

Neither am I. And I typically do not get along well in group situations of any kind. But I do miss communing with like minded biblical literalists.

Large groups can be tough because factions form, but if you can find small group Bible studies it's pretty nice.

[HoustonSam]

Back to present day individuals:
Remember, individuals make individual decisions that affect no one but the individual self.  These "individual" choices do not involve other people as the choice would not be "individual" if others are involved. 

I'm Baptist, and we are among the most individualistic of the Christian denominations.  The late Herschel Hobbes wrote that a "Baptist Distinctive" is the idea of "soul competence", meaning that each individual has an in-born capability to recognize right from wrong; when guided by the Holy Spirit this "soul competence" equips the believer to read and apply scripture in his or her own life, with no need for the intervening authority of an Ecclesiastical Magisterium.

Even from this tradition of individualistic polity, it is clear that The Church is not about individualism.  It is about Communion; communion with other believers; and through Christ The Son, communion with God The Father.  "Individual decisions that affect no one but the individual self" are essentially fiction in a Christian spiritual context, and even were they not fiction, abortion is not such a decision.

The Body of Christ can be neither complete nor even subject to His will when it tolerates the destruction of the mortal bodies of the most innocent and helpless, who, not yet having the opportunity to respond volitionally to God's will, represent His glory purely in their existence.

[christian]

The liars lie about nearly everything and deceive constantly.  What of those that love being lied to and lead astray?  Clearly those love false leaders and their fate is of such.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Before being formed in the womb, how should God have to make it any clearer that that. They who are willingly lead astray have chosen their leader and where he is known to be leading them, death.  Their lieing denials only dig the ditch they are in deeper.

[bilo]

You might suppose I am likewise a Biblical literalist, and I also enjoy long-form (classical) argument and communing with like minds... Especially like-in-kind that think differently. So I go out of my way to engage, often inviting people to my porch, or attending Bible studies that are again, long form and expositional. I tend to favor Baptists and Pentecostals the most, finding their scholarship to be more intense and more open.

But any ol thing will do... I have had elders and deacons from just about every faith on my porch, excepting the Orthodox... And that more form a lack of opportunity...  I think all, or many (orgs) that follow Messiah are in possession of something precious. But I have found none that are entirely right. Some of that is Yah's economy... Diversity seems to be a signature. So I am cool with differentiation in emphasis...  But when it comes down to bare bones, I dare not offend by adhering to a doctrine I cannot fully endorse.

Perhaps some day I'll find my Church in the Wildwood, but I doubt it. He has put it in me to prefer rocky trails and high pastures to the safety of the sheepfolds.

And I say all that not to be critical of my brothers. But rather to define somehow the path I follow. When I say no one has it right, I would include me in that... But one must strive even yet, to get it right somehow, within the parameters he has laid down...

FWIW, as long as you stick with the 5 Solas you're on solid ground.

[bilo]

That's not true..Your Dem Party's main platform is Pro abortion...writing and pass inglaws to make it easier and *lawful* to kill unborn babies...IOW's murderers...imho

The only thing you have wrong. It is FACT.

Killing a human being is murder.

[bilo]

That's mostly right. And I too am strengthened in fellowship. Some of that I get from non-denominational Evangelicals  I LOVE their praise. Some I get from Pentecostals. I LOVE their spirit. And some from the Baptists and the fire coming from their pulpits. But when it comes to religion, I am a meat-eater. I tire quickly of modern philosophy disguised as Word. It isn't. And in that, all I can do is go on my way.

Which is really alright. I have had my best fellowship along the trail, or in the camp. And while I hunger, I do not go hungry.

I'm with you! When a Pastor deviates from Scripture I'm among the first to talk with him. Literal first interpretation will always keep you on solid ground.

[bilo]

Have to hand it to the Ds and progressives for their gift of coining provocative, hyperbolic distortions.

I'm not Catholic, but I hope the USCCB makes clear that this discussion will take place in terms which reinforce the transcendent essentials of the Christian faith, not the false, transient doctrines of progressive ideology.

 

It would be a big deal.

[bilo]

I'm Baptist, and we are among the most individualistic of the Christian denominations.  The late Herschel Hobbes wrote that a "Baptist Distinctive" is the idea of "soul competence", meaning that each individual has an in-born capability to recognize right from wrong; when guided by the Holy Spirit this "soul competence" equips the believer to read and apply scripture in his or her own life, with no need for the intervening authority of an Ecclesiastical Magisterium.

Even from this tradition of individualistic polity, it is clear that The Church is not about individualism.  It is about Communion; communion with other believers; and through Christ The Son, communion with God The Father.  "Individual decisions that affect no one but the individual self" are essentially fiction in a Christian spiritual context, and even were they not fiction, abortion is not such a decision.

The Body of Christ can be neither complete nor even subject to His will when it tolerates the destruction of the mortal bodies of the most innocent and helpless, who, not yet having the opportunity to respond volitionally to God's will, represent His glory purely in their existence.

[/b]

Wow!

Just beautiful.

[Absalom]

Every person owns his/her body - the church does not, the government does not, own that body.  He/she can do what he/she wants with his/her body.  If the person wants to cut off his/her right toe, he/she can.  If a man wants to have surgery so he will not produce children, he can.  If a woman wants to abort a pregnancy, she can.  Others may think a man should not stop himself from having children, but those people do not own this man's body.  Others may think a woman should not have an abortion, but those people do not own this woman's body.
Church denominations make their own rules.  Baptist rules may be different than Methodists rules, Catholic rules may be different than Church-of-Christ rules.  So, all denominations make their own rules.  A Christian does not have to join any church to be a Christian.  Catholics/other denominations are going to be surprised in heaven when there are other denominations there along with those Christians who belong to no church.

-----------------------------
Multi-tens of thousands of years past, the Wise asked themselves 'What formed the bedrock
of their culture/society?'. Their answer; The Family Unit of Father, Mother and Children!
Their next question was: 'What are the Rules of Behavior necessary to sustain the Family Unit, encouraging it to survive/thrive?'. As a consequence Abortion, Homosexuality, Transgenderism,
among severely neurotic behaviors (which existed) were discouraged, forbidden and punished.
These Rules of Behavior were defined by the Natural Law which had
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO W/RELIGION OR ECONOMICS OR POLITICS!!!
Underlining these Rules was the understanding that while Rights existed, they were interlocked w/Responsibilities and this understanding governed Mankind for ageless millennia!
The break came from the French Enlightenment, the promoter of the nostrum that
LIBERTE'/Freedom w/o restraint, was the catalyst for the betterment of Mankind's condition.
Man has been paying for that fateful (if not fatal) transformation, as the history of the past
300 years affirms!!!

[roamer_1]

FWIW, as long as you stick with the 5 Solas you're on solid ground.

And I am pretty profoundly so... Which might seem an oddity coming from a Torah keeper... But I think you would find me fairly aligned on the principle things... I kinds dig principle things, you know.  But how I would present and secure those solas does not fit in the Reformed box... And that is whence I come - long, long ago... From Calvin and the Dutch Reformed... But I do not follow Calvin anymore... I follow Yeshua.

[roamer_1]

I'm Baptist

I could have predicted that. 

[roamer_1]

-----------------------------
Multi-tens of thousands of years past, the Wise asked themselves 'What formed the bedrock
of their culture/society?'. Their answer; The Family Unit of Father, Mother and Children!
Their next question was: 'What are the Rules of Behavior necessary to sustain the Family Unit, encouraging it to survive/thrive?'. As a consequence Abortion, Homosexuality, Transgenderism,
among severely neurotic behaviors (which existed) were discouraged, forbidden and punished.
These Rules of Behavior were defined by the Natural Law which had
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO W/RELIGION OR ECONOMICS OR POLITICS!!!
Underlining these Rules was the understanding that while Rights existed, they were interlocked w/Responsibilities and this understanding governed Mankind for ageless millennia!
The break came from the French Enlightenment, the promoter of the nostrum that
LIBERTE'/Freedom w/o restraint, was the catalyst for the betterment of Mankind's condition.
Man has been paying for that fateful (if not fatal) transformation, as the history of the past
300 years affirms!!!

In the end, society is formed for the protection of women and the rearing of children... That is inevitably what it is for. And when it ceases to do either, it is doomed to fail.

[Absalom]

I'm Baptist, and we are among the most individualistic of the Christian denominations.  The late Herschel Hobbes wrote that a "Baptist Distinctive" is the idea of "soul competence", meaning that each individual has an in-born capability to recognize right from wrong; when guided by the Holy Spirit this "soul competence" equips the believer to read and apply scripture in his or her own life, with no need for the intervening authority of an Ecclesiastical Magisterium.
Even from this tradition of individualistic polity, it is clear that The Church is not about individualism.  It is about Communion; communion with other believers; and through Christ The Son, communion with God The Father.  "Individual decisions that affect no one but the individual self" are essentially fiction in a Christian spiritual context, and even were they not fiction, abortion is not such a decision.
The Body of Christ can be neither complete nor even subject to His will when it tolerates the destruction of the mortal bodies of the most innocent and helpless, who, not yet having the opportunity to respond volitionally to God's will, represent His glory purely in their existence.

----------------------------------
A respectful observation.
Certainly Religion has its place in the front row of Rule Makers, yet
Natural Law, discerned from Human Nature thru Logic and Reason
in the early existence of Mankind, precedes all Religions.
The Ancients grasped this, among them the Wise Plato who defined
the Psyche (Soul) of Man some 400 years before Jesus Christ and the
formation of Roman Catholicism.