Author Topic: Colorado officials observe gray wolf pups for the first time in about 80 years  (Read 1927 times)

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Offline libertybele

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Colorado officials observe gray wolf pups for the first time in about 80 years

Spotting cute pups is worth celebrating any day, but in Colorado it's historic.
For the first time since the 1940s, a litter of gray wolves has been seen in Colorado.
Officials began tracking two adult wolves named "John" and "Jane" earlier this year. Fast-forward a few months, Colorado Parks and Wildlife staff saw "John" and "Jane" with three pups in Jackson County, about 150 miles northwest of Denver.

The gray wolves were eradicated by hunting and poisoning in the 1940s, but a ballot initiative to reintroduce the wolves onto the Western Slope of Colorado passed late last year. The measure requires the state to restore and manage gray wolves in the state by the end of 2023.

Colorado Gov. Jared Polis emphasized the importance of the initiative to help the gray wolf population in the state.

"We welcome this historic den and the new wolf family to Colorado," Polis said Wednesday. "With voter passage last year of the initiative to require re-introduction of the wolf by the end of 2023, these pups will have plenty of potential mates when they grow up to start their own families."...........

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/13/us/gray-wolves-colorado-trnd/index.html
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline roamer_1

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Colorado officials observe gray wolf pups for the first time in about 80 years

Spotting cute pups is worth celebrating any day, but in Colorado it's historic.
For the first time since the 1940s, a litter of gray wolves has been seen in Colorado.
Officials began tracking two adult wolves named "John" and "Jane" earlier this year. Fast-forward a few months, Colorado Parks and Wildlife staff saw "John" and "Jane" with three pups in Jackson County, about 150 miles northwest of Denver.

The gray wolves were eradicated by hunting and poisoning in the 1940s, but a ballot initiative to reintroduce the wolves onto the Western Slope of Colorado passed late last year. The measure requires the state to restore and manage gray wolves in the state by the end of 2023.

Colorado Gov. Jared Polis emphasized the importance of the initiative to help the gray wolf population in the state.

"We welcome this historic den and the new wolf family to Colorado," Polis said Wednesday. "With voter passage last year of the initiative to require re-introduction of the wolf by the end of 2023, these pups will have plenty of potential mates when they grow up to start their own families."...........

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/13/us/gray-wolves-colorado-trnd/index.html

I bet that's pretty well bullcrap. If it is like here (which it is) Rocky Mountain Timber Wolves were still around big time... just way back in the woods. Now we have those dreadful McKenzie River Gray Wolves, and my beloved timber wolves are doomed.

Online Smokin Joe

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I bet that's pretty well bullcrap. If it is like here (which it is) Rocky Mountain Timber Wolves were still around big time... just way back in the woods. Now we have those dreadful McKenzie River Gray Wolves, and my beloved timber wolves are doomed.
Nothing like introducing invasive species to compete with what they claim to be saving...

There is a reason those critters were thinned out.

I reckon people are going to have to learn about that all over again.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Sled Dog

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I bet that's pretty well bullcrap. If it is like here (which it is) Rocky Mountain Timber Wolves were still around big time... just way back in the woods. Now we have those dreadful McKenzie River Gray Wolves, and my beloved timber wolves are doomed.

Well, that depends on if the gray wolf, this species they're "re-introducing" was part of the local ecosystem in the first place, doesn't it?

I don't usually trust these stories, but, assuming the species they're putting in was the species that was killed off, wouldn't your local timber wolfs just have to make the re-adjustment back to historical norms like they did before?

Or are you saying the species they're installing is not the species that was killed off?
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline skeeter

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Well, that depends on if the gray wolf, this species they're "re-introducing" was part of the local ecosystem in the first place, doesn't it?

I don't usually trust these stories, but, assuming the species they're putting in was the species that was killed off, wouldn't your local timber wolfs just have to make the re-adjustment back to historical norms like they did before?

Or are you saying the species they're installing is not the species that was killed off?
being a Californian you may appreciate this SD - a member of an animal rescue group here told me they recently trapped a grey(?) wolf in Monterey County which had been previously tagged in Washington. That’s one wide ranging beast.

Offline Sled Dog

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Nothing like introducing invasive species to compete with what they claim to be saving...

There is a reason those critters were thinned out.

I reckon people are going to have to learn about that all over again.

Are they an invasive species or are they being restored to their historical range?

You said they were "thinned out".

That implies that the species was removed from it's range and is being returned.

If a species is being returned to it's range, then it's not an invasive species.

Want to know what invasive species exist in Colorado?   I can name five off the top of my head.

Humans
Dogs
Cats
Sheep
Cattle  (not "bison")

the wolves, the coyotes, they evolved for that habitat and were deemed "vermin" by people wanting to make money with their own invasive species.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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being a Californian you may appreciate this SD - a member of an animal rescue group here told me they recently trapped a grey(?) wolf in Monterey County which had been previously tagged in Washington. That’s one wide ranging beast.

I'm not a Californian.   I just live here.   If anything, I hie from Central New York.   

But, yeah, a wolf that's been kicked out of his family tends to wander until he finds a home for himself.

Freakin' Siberian huskies will roam, too, if they escape.   They can do forty miles in a day.  This one girl I have, she is not a dog to take turns.   She gets on a heading and plows straight through.  If she'd gotten loose in her youth, she'd have been found in the next county, easy.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 03:45:35 pm by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline skeeter

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I'm not a Californian.   I just live here.
if that’s the standard then there’re only a very very few of us here.
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But, yeah, a wolf that's been kicked out of his family tends to wander until he finds a home for himself.
I suppose so. In addition to traveling 500 miles this particular wolf had to cross a multitude of rivers, busy roads & highways as well as two or three mountain ranges & a couple of canals. That’s pretty impressive.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 03:52:35 pm by skeeter »

Offline roamer_1

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Well, that depends on if the gray wolf, this species they're "re-introducing" was part of the local ecosystem in the first place, doesn't it?

It wasn't...  After the fact they admitted and recognized the gray wolf sub-species that IS here (or was). The Northern Rocky Mountain Timber Wolf is way different from the McKenzie River marauders they set loose up here... Lighter, tawny, lanky and long in the leg, small family groups instead of monster packs... I tracked em half my life. When I say they are beloved by me, I mean that. I know these animals and they know me.

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I don't usually trust these stories, but, assuming the species they're putting in was the specie
s that was killed off, wouldn't your local timber wolfs just have to make the re-adjustment back to historical norms like they did before?

They were not endangered here - In fact they are MORE endangered now, as the McKenzies subsume them. They will soon be gone.

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Or are you saying the species they're installing is not the species that was killed off?

It wasn't 'killed off'. That's bullcrap. They had wide territories and were way back out of the way, but they were doing fine.

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The Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf Recovery Plan was first approved in 1980, though it was then revised later on in 1987. The plan required a certain population of northern Rocky Mountain wolves to reside in the area inside and around Yellowstone, which included at least ten breeding pairs, and for the population to remain stable for at least three consecutive years.[13][14] However, the northern Rocky Mountain wolf was not, at the time of the initial drafting, recognized as a legitimate subspecies, so the wolves involved in the plan were instead the Mackenzie Valley wolf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Rocky_Mountain_wolf

It is NOT the same wolf.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 05:05:02 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline roamer_1

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Nothing like introducing invasive species to compete with what they claim to be saving...

There is a reason those critters were thinned out.

I reckon people are going to have to learn about that all over again.

Yeah, with monsters this time. Irremotus doesn't run down whole herds and rip em to shreds just for fun.
But these McKenzies sure do.

Sonsabiches.

Offline roamer_1

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Are they an invasive species or are they being restored to their historical range?

You said they were "thinned out".

That implies that the species was removed from it's range and is being returned.

If a species is being returned to it's range, then it's not an invasive species.

Want to know what invasive species exist in Colorado?   I can name five off the top of my head.

Humans
Dogs
Cats
Sheep
Cattle  (not "bison")

the wolves, the coyotes, they evolved for that habitat and were deemed "vermin" by people wanting to make money with their own invasive species.

You don't know a damn thing you are talking about.

You like em so much, turn em loose in YOUR back yard... Along with GRIZ that belong all the way down the Rockies, across the western plains, and certainly down there in Cali...

THEN maybe you'll know to leave us the hell alone.

Offline Sled Dog

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if that’s the standard then there’re only a very very few of us here.

My mental image of the typical "Californian" is Adam Schiff.

 888high58888

The rest of us are Americans.

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I suppose so. In addition to traveling 500 miles this particular wolf had to cross a multitude of rivers, busy roads & highways as well as two or three mountain ranges & a couple of canals. That’s pretty impressive.

All the canids are impressive species.    My personal non-dog favorite is the African wild dogs.   I like the markings.   I'm sure they'd make terrible pets, but they look pretty nice.   Like if a pinto horse was turned into a dog.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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You don't know a damn thing you are talking about.

You like em so much, turn em loose in YOUR back yard... Along with GRIZ that belong all the way down the Rockies, across the western plains, and certainly down there in Cali...

THEN maybe you'll know to leave us the hell alone.

Well, that does answer the questions, doesn't it?

The first response is a personal attack, which will be ignored by all and sundry, for "reasons".

The second take-away is that, no, the gray wolves are being restored to range that was once theirs.  If they were an invasive species, you'd have admitted that.   Like how the Rodents don't want an audit into how they stole the election, you don't want to say the species is native, because that puts your whining about them in a more natural, and unfavorable, light.

And I've no problem with wolves.   There's mountain lions in the national forests around here.  And if two species of wolves compete for a territory, the stronger species (or the luckier one) will succeed.  This is called nature.   You claim to love nature and love living in your Ted Kaczynski hideaway, but you seem offended when men are trying to put nature back to the way nature is supposed to be. 

You need to make up your mind on the answer to a key question:

Do you love living nature, or is your real preference that for living in a managed public park?   Nature has things in it people don't like.   That why we murder them.


Anyway, I asked  you a  simple and polite question with no malice and you decided to go emo on us.

Nice job.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 05:34:38 pm by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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It wasn't...  After the fact they admitted and recognized the gray wolf sub-species that IS here (or was). The Northern Rocky Mountain Timber Wolf is way different from the McKenzie River marauders they set loose up here... Lighter, tawny, lanky and long in the leg, small family groups instead of monster packs... I tracked em half my life. When I say they are beloved by me, I mean that. I know these animals and they know me.

So you're claiming, after your emotional outburst, that the species being introduced is not the species originally native to the region.

That's fine, then.   I mean, it's fine that your argument has merit.    Like I said, I don't trust environmentalists, not at all

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They were not endangered here - In fact they are MORE endangered now, as the McKenzies subsume them. They will soon be gone.

It wasn't 'killed off'. That's bullcrap. They had wide territories and were way back out of the way, but they were doing fine.

I'm pretty sure I meant in the region they're being introduced/re-introduced into.   Otherwise they would have used the word "extinct", and when the word "extinct" is used, there's a general rule that the species cannot be re-introduced anywhere.   For some reason.

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It is NOT the same wolf.

Okay.   That is what I asked.

Thank you.

Just calm down already.  I am the most rational person you know.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline roamer_1

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Well, that does answer the questions, doesn't it?

The first response is a personal attack, which will be ignored by all and sundry, for "reasons".

Actually it was the second response, and a direct rejoinder to your ignorant accusations.

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The second take-away is that, no, the gray wolves are being restored to range that was once theirs.  If they were an invasive species, you'd have admitted that.   Like how the Rodents don't want an audit into how they stole the election, you don't want to say the species is native, because that puts your whining about them in a more natural, and unfavorable, light.


It IS invasive. It is NOT the same wolf as was already here, and already doing fine. Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about.

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And I've no problem with wolves.   There's mountain lions in the national forests around here.  And if two species of wolves compete for a territory, the stronger species (or the luckier one) will succeed.  This is called nature.   You claim to love nature and love living in your Ted Kaczynski hideaway, but you seem offended when men are trying to put nature back to the way nature is supposed to be. 

Riiight. We got all these ignorant folks fifteen hundred miles away telling us what to do. There are supposed to be wolves in Cali. There are supposed to be griz in Cali. Howabout you worry about 're-introduction' down there by you and see how YOU like it. YOU are the one with out wolves. You are the one without griz. I bet you'd have a time finding a bison down there. ALL of them belong there. So mind your own business howabout?

LOL! Cougars. Y'all don't know from cougars. All that stuff is STILL HERE big time, and yet you, who live where they have been denuded are getting all high and mighty with me.

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You need to make up your mind on the answer to a key question:

Do you love living nature, or is your real preference that for living in a managed public park?   Nature has things in it people don't like.   That why we murder them.


They WERE NOT murdered. That's what set me off. 

They were here all along. And it would be you that lives in managed public parks.
It don't get no more wild than where I am. Thousands of miles of raw untouched Taiga, stretching all the way up to the Northern Territories and Alaska. There are thousands of square miles right here that have never seen a fence, never seen a saw, and hell, never seen a road.

And wolves were doing just fine.

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Anyway, I asked  you a  simple and polite question with no malice and you decided to go emo on us.

Nice job.

Well, yeah... Calling me a murderer is polite. sure.

Offline libertybele

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I'm not familiar so much with wolves, we have panthers and coyotes and now bears are coming...crocs, pythons, iguana, monitor lizards ... all are becoming invasive right now.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline roamer_1

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I'm pretty sure I meant in the region they're being introduced/re-introduced into.   Otherwise they would have used the word "extinct", and when the word "extinct" is used, there's a general rule that the species cannot be re-introduced anywhere.   For some reason.


They were NOT extinct. They are all over MT, ID, WY and southern Alberta for sure. That they would range down through UT and CO would be no surprise.

And nobody walks the tall timber. Dam few get off of sidewalks. and dam few of them get out to the end of the gravel, and dam few of them get up the two-track, and dam few of them go out on a major wilderness trail

And NOBODY goes off trail very far. You get off trail up some deer chase for a half a day, and you will see no one. I have been up there for months and never seen a soul.

So who the hell is saying what's extinct?

Offline Sled Dog

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Actually it was the second response, and a direct rejoinder to your ignorant accusations.

Didn't make accusations.   You really need to visit an entomological proctologist to get that bug outta your butt.

I was requesting clarification of the terms being used to promote further useful discussion.   

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It IS invasive. It is NOT the same wolf as was already here, and already doing fine. Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about.

I knew enough to ask, and any unbiased person reading my postings would recognize the difference between asking questions and making assertions.

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Riiight. We got all these ignorant folks fifteen hundred miles away telling us what to do. There are supposed to be wolves in Cali. There are supposed to be griz in Cali. Howabout you worry about 're-introduction' down there by you and see how YOU like it. YOU are the one with out wolves. You are the one without griz. I bet you'd have a time finding a bison down there. ALL of them belong there. So mind your own business howabout?

I've no problem with wolves being restored to California, and just because I live in the Los Angeles desert where wolves would be uncomfortable.   Coyotes thrive here, the climate is a little harsh for the northern wolves.   But as I also said, we have mountain lions, and hell, bring them back.   As soon as they allow hikers their Second Amendment rights again.   No sane person wants to challenge a mountain lion with a stick or a pocket knife.

Put a little excitement back on those boring "scenic" trails, eh?

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LOL! Cougars. Y'all don't know from cougars. All that stuff is STILL HERE big time, and yet you, who live where they have been denuded are getting all high and mighty with me.

Nope.  All I was doing was asking some pertinent questions at the beginning of the thread.

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They WERE NOT murdered. That's what set me off. 

You have a problem with the English language?   

The species homo sapiens is famous for being the most efficient and most thorough killers in all of Earth's history, without any doubt about it.   Never in global history has a animal species been responsible for what may become a mass extinction.   

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They were here all along. And it would be you that lives in managed public parks.

So...the gray wolves are both an invasive species AND they were there all along?   

Explain how they can be both.
 :2popcorn:

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It don't get no more wild than where I am.

It's going to.  They're either going to be introducing an invasive species or restoring a species that was wrongly removed ("denuded") from your area, to make it more wild.

And you're complaining about it.   

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Thousands of miles of raw untouched Taiga, stretching all the way up to the Northern Territories and Alaska. There are thousands of square miles right here that have never seen a fence, never seen a saw, and hell, never seen a road.

I've seen wild areas like that.   Thousands of miles of wilderness, not a fence in sight, massive carnivorous beasties, unforgettable beauty.

Then I sold my sailboat to buy a real house.  But the wilderness is still out there, just three miles away.  The biggest ocean in the world.   I hope the shark populations come back up.   

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And wolves were doing just fine.

It's not for the wolves they want to restore the wolves, it's to improve the balance of the ecosystem.   Animal populations need predation to keep them on their toes.   

That's why people have wars.

To keep from getting bored.

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Well, yeah... Calling me a murderer is polite. sure.

No such comment was directed at you personally.  It's what we all are, its our heritage.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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They were NOT extinct. They are all over MT, ID, WY and southern Alberta for sure. That they would range down through UT and CO would be no surprise.

And nobody walks the tall timber. Dam few get off of sidewalks. and dam few of them get out to the end of the gravel, and dam few of them get up the two-track, and dam few of them go out on a major wilderness trail

And NOBODY goes off trail very far. You get off trail up some deer chase for a half a day, and you will see no one. I have been up there for months and never seen a soul.

So who the hell is saying what's extinct?


I was amplifying the correct use of words.   
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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I'm not familiar so much with wolves, we have panthers and coyotes and now bears are coming...crocs, pythons, iguana, monitor lizards ... all are becoming invasive right now.

Florida?

The pythons are going to win their battle with the alligators.

Damn those people and their exotic pets.

The natural habitat of the coyote extends all across north America, except maybe the extreme Artic.  From Nova Scotia to San Diego, Alaska to Florida.   Very impressive survivor.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline roamer_1

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I've no problem with wolves being restored to California, and just because I live in the Los Angeles desert where wolves would be uncomfortable.   Coyotes thrive here, the climate is a little harsh for the northern wolves.   But as I also said, we have mountain lions, and hell, bring them back.   As soon as they allow hikers their Second Amendment rights again.   No sane person wants to challenge a mountain lion with a stick or a pocket knife.

Put a little excitement back on those boring "scenic" trails, eh?

Wolves were there.

As to excitement on the trail, That'd be moose, more than any other, and griz after that.

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The species homo sapiens is famous for being the most efficient and most thorough killers in all of Earth's history, without any doubt about it.   Never in global history has a animal species been responsible for what may become a mass extinction.

As much nonsense as the claim that man is an invasive species in Colorado. There is nothing of measure that is extinct here. Do we kill predators that mess with livestock, hell yeah. Do we hunt and trap? YEP. And all that stuff we been killing and hunting and trapping is still here getting killed and hunted and trapped to this very day.

This is a common affectation of modernity and folks that don't get out of the cities. Generally rural folks live in harmony with nature. Generally, the forest is more healthy in the areas outlying rural farms and homesteads because rural folks thin things out - WAY better than the deep forest, where the protection that man provides is absent.

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So...the gray wolves are both an invasive species AND they were there all along?   

Explain how they can be both.
 :2popcorn:

Your DOG is a subspecies of Lupus. Everything canine is a gray wolf. Both the McKenzie and the Timber are sub-species. There is no gray wolf proper. There are varieties of gray wolf, and they are not all the same.

McKenzie River wolves come out of a big landscape with long wide valleys and are huge to compensate for the land that bred them. The timber wolf is made for the forests that bred them. The timber wolf is elusive and runs in small packs. The McKenzie is a bruiser, bold, and runs in big packs.

You would know what I mean standing in the carnage with 12/15 elk ripped to shreds and left to rot - Just the hamstrings and the throats tore out, and the lower gut ripped open, and nothing fed on at all.

A timber just would not behave that way. And that is not good predation. That is frenzied killing and waste. Not the same critter.

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It's going to.  They're either going to be introducing an invasive species or restoring a species that was wrongly removed ("denuded") from your area, to make it more wild.

And you're complaining about it.

Going to? It's already been done. I can see the results.

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It's not for the wolves they want to restore the wolves, it's to improve the balance of the ecosystem.   Animal populations need predation to keep them on their toes. 

Yeah, like when they introduced the micinea shrimp here  and destroyed the kokanee that they were supposedly introducing the shrimp to help. You used to be able to walk across the rivers on the backs of the salmon, and now they're nearly gone... Because some dumass thought them shrimp would help things.

Because science.  *****rollingeyes*****

This is the same sort of thing. Monster wolves that are wiping out whole herds of elk and mule deer... What will be next is declaring elk and muleys endangered and then we can't survive because we can't subsist. Watch and see.

Stand in the middle of that slaughter with me and preach. And know that a timber wolf would cull that herd, taking what it needs. Not decimating the herd for sh*ts and giggles.

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No such comment was directed at you personally.  It's what we all are, its our heritage.

Again - ignorance.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 07:12:44 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline skeeter

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My mental image of the typical "Californian" is Adam Schiff.

 888high58888

The rest of us are Americans.


PS: Adam Schiff is from Massachusetts.

Offline Sled Dog

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Wolves were there.

As to excitement on the trail, That'd be moose, more than any other, and griz after that.

Ah...mooses.

Went camping in Yellowstone in 1980.   We hiked up a trail, not more than a couple miles from the road, and crossed a stream.   We'd seen a moose about ten minutes before.  "Cool!".  Then, right there, in a little clearing on the side of the trail, just barely big enough to make a moose comfortable to lie down, there he was, not three feet from us.   Just watching us.   THAT was very interesting.   At least he didn't get up and chase us.

We decided to camp back by the stream, where the water was.   Woke up with a moose twenty feet away having breakfast.   That guy was totally used to people.

Then again, it wasn't mating season.

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As much nonsense as the claim that man is an invasive species in Colorado.

An invasive species is a species that is introduced into a ecology it did not previously occupy.  Until the Clovis people came to North America, none of the Americas were human occupied, EVER.   Or until the asians came over from the other way, if you subscribe to that theory.   

By definition, Man is an invasive species throughout all of Europe, Asia, Australia, North and South America, and Antarctica.   And we've changed the environment everywhere we go, except Anarctica, but only because there's not very many of us there.

It's what humans do.

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There is nothing of measure that is extinct here. Do we kill predators that mess with livestock, hell yeah. Do we hunt and trap? YEP. And all that stuff we been killing and hunting and trapping is still here getting killed and hunted and trapped to this very day.

Uh-huh.  Everyone knows this.   Some people are being sloppy with the word "eradicated" but I believe, without checking the OP again, that it's the article's fault there.

Nothing wrong with protecting livestock.   So long as the rancher doesn't indulge his natural urges and tries to eradicate the native species who are merely doing what they evolved to do.   Maybe the rancher can spend some of his money and install better fencing?

If he's too cheap for that, maybe the state should simply re-imburse him for the minor cost of the occasional dead (insert euphemism for Democrat voter here)?   

Just add an extra nickel to the cost of a hunting/fishing license.   Those license fees go towards preserving the environment anyway.

Or continue treating the state like a protected park and don't let the wild things grow.

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This is a common affectation of modernity and folks that don't get out of the cities. Generally rural folks live in harmony with nature. Generally, the forest is more healthy in the areas outlying rural farms and homesteads because rural folks thin things out - WAY better than the deep forest, where the protection that man provides is absent.

Harmony = killing off species that come between the rancher and his money.

Got it!   888high58888

Thanks.

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Your DOG is a subspecies of Lupus. Everything canine is a gray wolf. Both the McKenzie and the Timber are sub-species. There is no gray wolf proper. There are varieties of gray wolf, and they are not all the same.

Yup.  The word is "dogs", plural, and they're all huskies.   And they all have this annoying urge to chase ...everything that's an animal.   Fortunately they ignore cares and they like small children.

And yes, the definition of "species" is that one species is morphologically different from the others, though sometimes it's hard to tell, like with parrots.   The standard Amazon Orange Wing Parrot has three orange flight feathers on his wing, the Trinidad Orange Wing has four.   Not gonna tell that at a glance if they're together.

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McKenzie River wolves come out of a big landscape with long wide valleys and are huge to compensate for the land that bred them. The timber wolf is made for the forests that bred them. The timber wolf is elusive and runs in small packs. The McKenzie is a bruiser, bold, and runs in big packs.

You would know what I mean standing in the carnage with 12/15 elk ripped to shreds and left to rot - Just the hamstrings and the throats tore out, and the lower gut ripped open, and nothing fed on at all.

Ah, the arrogance, assuming he's such a poor writer that others can't understand what he's trying to say.   When he's actually writing so well I can understand him just fine. 

I get it that the Real McKenzies are a kick-ass wolf band.   They're also a really hot punk rock band.

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A timber just would not behave that way. And that is not good predation. That is frenzied killing and waste. Not the same critter.

And if the McKenzie is not native to the region, I agree with you entirely.

You've said they are not native and I have no reason to dispute this.     So if what you say is the case, then those wolves should not be introduced.

It's really as simple as that.



Going to? It's already been done. I can see the results.

Yeah, like when they introduced the micinea shrimp here  and destroyed the kokanee that they were supposedly introducing the shrimp to help. You used to be able to walk across the rivers on the backs of the salmon, and now they're nearly gone... Because some dumass thought them shrimp would help things.

Because science.  *****rollingeyes*****

This is the same sort of thing. Monster wolves that are wiping out whole herds of elk and mule deer... What will be next is declaring elk and muleys endangered and then we can't survive because we can't subsist. Watch and see.

Stand in the middle of that slaughter with me and preach. And know that a timber wolf would cull that herd, taking what it needs. Not decimating the herd for sh*ts and giggles.

Again - ignorance.
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Yawn.

You should try to read what I write instead of preaching against what I didn't say.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline roamer_1

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We decided to camp back by the stream, where the water was.   Woke up with a moose twenty feet away having breakfast.   That guy was totally used to people.

Then again, it wasn't mating season.

Neither of which matters a whit. All that matters is when that docile moose gets a wild hair and decides he hates you... Through no apparent action or intent on your part. Just because... moose. Then he will move heaven and earth to wreck you, and he will never forget. Moose are not dangerous because of their size, but rather, because of their crazy unpredictable wild hairs.

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An invasive species is a species that is introduced into a ecology it did not previously occupy.  Until the Clovis people came to North America, none of the Americas were human occupied, EVER.   Or until the asians came over from the other way, if you subscribe to that theory.   

I subscribe to neither. Nor should I, as both have long been disproved. Modern man goes back in the Americas as far back as anywhere. So you'll find me a diffusionist of sorts with a world-wide distribution going back as far as time... And with trade routes to match. There are Sumerian artifacts in Central and South America, for Pete's sake.

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By definition, Man is an invasive species throughout all of Europe, Asia, Australia, North and South America, and Antarctica.   And we've changed the environment everywhere we go, except Anarctica, but only because there's not very many of us there.

It's what humans do.

Rejected. You will find humans everywhere all the way along - Likely, I will suppose, in Antarctica too. The OOPARTS that prove it remain largely ignored by academia since their existence overturns the narrative. But there they are.

And if Man is present everywhere as far back as he goes, then there is no place he invaded... except to take from those who came before.

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Nothing wrong with protecting livestock.   So long as the rancher doesn't indulge his natural urges and tries to eradicate the native species who are merely doing what they evolved to do.   Maybe the rancher can spend some of his money and install better fencing?

If he's too cheap for that, maybe the state should simply re-imburse him for the minor cost of the occasional dead (insert euphemism for Democrat voter here)?   

Just add an extra nickel to the cost of a hunting/fishing license.   Those license fees go towards preserving the environment anyway.

Again, your ignorance of rural economy is profound.

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Or continue treating the state like a protected park and don't let the wild things grow.

As is your knowledge of the wilderness economy.

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Harmony = killing off species that come between the rancher and his money.

Again, you don't have a single clue what you are saying, and are as offensive in the saying as if you had authority...


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Yawn.

You should try to read what I write instead of preaching against what I didn't say.

I just did. Sommore.

Offline Sled Dog

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Neither of which matters a whit. All that matters is when that docile moose gets a wild hair and decides he hates you... Through no apparent action or intent on your part. Just because... moose. Then he will move heaven and earth to wreck you, and he will never forget. Moose are not dangerous because of their size, but rather, because of their crazy unpredictable wild hairs.

Yeah.

You REALLY need to learn how to read what people are saying.

What was the last line I wrote there that you quoted?

Hmmm?

What could I have possibly have meant by that.  Oh, gee.
 
Look, pal.  You are not impressive.   I don't care if you want to live in a highly regulated park and want to pretend that it's real wild nature out there.   Not my problem really.   Your bragging about your life choices is as fascinating to me as those made by Kapernick or Rich Simmons or anyone else.    What is interesting is the level of dishonesty you engage in to prop up your ego.     That says a lot about a man.

So, whatever.   I attempted to engage you in a rational discussion.  You failed.   I wasn't really surprised by the outcome.  I already had you on the correct pegs.

Enjoy the pretty addition to your environment.    I told you that you weren't going to be allowed to hide in your little hideaway, didn't I?  That they'd find you no matter what?   

They're letting the dogs out.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.