Author Topic: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?  (Read 11738 times)

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Offline libertybele

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2021, 11:18:03 pm »
Nothing will happen.

Not because there was anything at all legit about the election, because nothing was.

Nothing will happen because those who should do something lack the courage.

You are correct.  Those who could do something, did nothing; Pence and SCOTUS destroyed our Republic.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline skeeter

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2021, 11:30:11 pm »
You are correct.  Those who could do something, did nothing; Pence and SCOTUS destroyed our Republic.
One result that may come from any such audit conclusion could be the nation & world are finally forced to conclude the rat party, in a collusion of sorts with the GOP, is actually a kind of criminal enterprise not ordained by the people.

In which case DC will be forced to throw their usual pretenses to the wind and start ruling like Nicolas Maduro. Which they already kinda are.

Online roamer_1

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2021, 11:42:32 pm »
The Founders and authors of the Constitution neglected to put anything into the document to address the possibility of fraudulent elections.

Perhaps it just seemed unfathomable to them at the time that election fraud could occur on a widespread scale.

So... even if it can be "proven" that the election was stolen, and that an "underground election apparatus" to control elections was in fact constructed in 2020 (and might still be extant today), there's nothing that can be done about it. Other than to pursue charges against those who ran the apparatus at the local levels, and to try to take action that they won't be able to do more of the same next time around.

At some point it may fall to "the people" to handle matters and dismantle such apparati themselves.
Think, "Battle of Athens" scenarios...

There is some provision to challenge an election - But the bars are raised high on purpose. The way it is designed promotes finality, and I am alright with that - The reason being that every election would be challenged eternally otherwise.

As to the 'underground apparatus', I believe that has been functioning most of my life. There is a reason no Republican  worth his salt can be elected in the northeast. There is a reason why no Republican of measure can get elected in Chicago or LA or Seattle... Therein their shenanigans are perfected... But since around the Clinton election, I think that has been being imposed upon the federal elections as well - And they are figuring out how to take the game national.

And it is working. Largely because of collusion on the part of Republicans, but it is working.

Online roamer_1

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2021, 11:47:22 pm »
You are correct.  Those who could do something, did nothing; Pence and SCOTUS destroyed our Republic.

I disagree with the common thought on Pence's actions here... And largely agree with SCOTUS refusing to touch it. I think the precedence that would be set in both those cases would come back to bite you.

I don't think that is a matter of courage. I think what folks think is wrong...

Offline libertybele

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2021, 12:00:06 am »
I disagree with the common thought on Pence's actions here... And largely agree with SCOTUS refusing to touch it. I think the precedence that would be set in both those cases would come back to bite you.

I don't think that is a matter of courage. I think what folks think is wrong...

SCOTUS could have ruled that States must comply with Federal election law and their own State's election laws.  Several states didn't comply.  Though the courts ruled against the argument of Pence and the 12th Amendment giving Pence, not the states, sole discretion to determine which among competing slates of electors may be counted, it certainly should have been a consideration on his part as he still had the obligation as  President of the Senate to preside over the election -- if there were fraudulent votes (as it became increasingly obvious) he had a duty to throw out or not certify those votes.  This was not so much about trying to overturn an election, but to have some validity and verification of a fair election.

Pence certainly should have NOT determined the election, but he  certainly shouldn't have certified fraudulent votes.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 12:10:11 am by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Online roamer_1

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2021, 12:12:41 am »
SCOTUS could have ruled that States must comply with Federal election law and their own State's election laws.  Several states didn't comply.

I don't think it is that cut and dried. Without a deep perusal of state laws and precedence, it is hard telling what legally changes  functional state law in the face of contingencies and emergencies. I think it would take a whole herd of lawyers to determine that. And that is the advantage here... Because of the 'emergency' of the 'plandemic'  there is probably wiggle room in state law. It is horrible that such a thing would be used as an advantage... But there it is.

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Though the courts ruled against the 12th Amendment it was argued that the 12th Amendment gives Pence, not the states, sole discretion to determine which among competing slates of electors may be counted.

I find that idea to be dubious... And without some precedence in history, it seems to be plowing new ground. Not saying wrt legality, but I can assume that plowing new ground is always to be taken with a sideways glance.

Online roamer_1

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2021, 12:18:25 am »
Pence certainly should have NOT determined the election, but he  certainly shouldn't have certified fraudulent votes.

Missed this: At the time there was just a hue and cry with little evidence. Heck there ain't nothing proven even yet... Seems to be asking a lot, and that in a highly partisan and Pro-Tump manner... Favoring his own administration. I can see why he would not want to go there.

Online Elderberry

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2021, 12:23:43 am »
https://www.manufacturedhomepronews.com/masthead/leo-donofrio-writ-of-quo-warranto-legal-solution-to-election-fraud-potus-trump-vs-biden-path-to-stop-millions-of-jobs-vanishing-oligarchs-power-gra/

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Quo warranto is the exact legal process in our national history used to correct election fraud, error, or lawlessness. For example, in a case from 2003, New York’s highest court held that when a voting machine jammed, causing just 37 votes to be challenged, a writ of quo warranto was the proper procedure, stating:

“Challenges to the outcome of a general election based upon alleged voting machine malfunctions necessarily fall within the purview of quo warranto.”

Will Congress impeach themselves for that body having previously enacted a statute to contest election results? § 16-3545 states that Biden/Harris will be ousted from the Office of President if the evidence goes against them:

“Where a defendant in a quo warranto proceeding is found by the jury to have usurped, intruded into, or unlawfully held or exercised an office or franchise, the verdict shall be that he is guilty of the act or acts in question, and judgment shall be rendered that he be ousted and excluded therefrom and that the relator recover his costs.”


Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2021, 12:37:17 am »

We can hope for state legislatures pushing hard for serious election reforms.


Which they should have done the last time the GOP was in control of those states, but let's hope this last election was the kick in the butt they needed.

The Republic is lost.

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2021, 12:38:35 am »
SCOTUS could have ruled that States must comply with Federal election law and their own State's election laws.  Several states didn't comply.  Though the courts ruled against the argument of Pence and the 12th Amendment giving Pence, not the states, sole discretion to determine which among competing slates of electors may be counted, it certainly should have been a consideration on his part as he still had the obligation as  President of the Senate to preside over the election -- if there were fraudulent votes (as it became increasingly obvious) he had a duty to throw out or not certify those votes.  This was not so much about trying to overturn an election, but to have some validity and verification of a fair election.

Pence certainly should have NOT determined the election, but he  certainly shouldn't have certified fraudulent votes.

SCOTUS rejection of the Paxton case is one of the few issues on which @roamer_1 and I disagree, and even in our disagreement I acknowledge that he has a legitimate case.

The idea that Pence could have done anything other than what he did has always been absurd.  Not a single word in the Twelfth Amendment even remotely suggests that the President of the Senate has any authority to reject state-certified electoral votes.  The only action of the President of the Senate according to the 12 A is :

"The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;"

There is no Constitutional basis for determining that EVs are "fraudulent", even if we all agree they do not represent the truth.  The sole authority to determine that EVs are official and to be counted is the authority of the state to certify the EVs.  The President of the Senate does not certify anything; there is no such Constitutional authority other than the state.

And if Pence *could have* rejected EVs during the count, they why couldn't Kamala Harris do the exact same thing during the 2025 count?  All she would need would be a rump set of EVs sent up by the D state legislators in any state won by the R candidate.  We all agree that the Ds will shamelessly lie and cheat and the media will cover for them; what would stop her from rejecting enough R EVs to throw the election to the D candidate?
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Online mystery-ak

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2021, 12:43:22 am »
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And if Pence *could have* rejected EVs during the count, they why couldn't Kamala Harris do the exact same thing during the 2025 count?  All she would need would be a rump set of EVs sent up by the D state legislators in any state won by the R candidate.  We all agree that the Ds will shamelessly lie and cheat and the media will cover for them; what would stop her from rejecting enough R EVs to throw the election to the D candidate?

Don't put it past her or whoever the VP is then...The Dems of course will try to steal the 2022-2025 elections count on it.
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2021, 12:46:24 am »
Don't put it past her or whoever the VP is then...The Dems of course will try to steal the 2022-2025 elections count on it.

I don't put anything past them.  So why pave the way for them by asserting something that is flatly against the plain language of the 12th Amendment, and that openly invites abuse?
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Offline libertybele

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2021, 12:57:17 am »
SCOTUS rejection of the Paxton case is one of the few issues on which @roamer_1 and I disagree, and even in our disagreement I acknowledge that he has a legitimate case.

The idea that Pence could have done anything other than what he did has always been absurd.  Not a single word in the Twelfth Amendment even remotely suggests that the President of the Senate has any authority to reject state-certified electoral votes.  The only action of the President of the Senate according to the 12 A is :

"The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;"

There is no Constitutional basis for determining that EVs are "fraudulent", even if we all agree they do not represent the truth.  The sole authority to determine that EVs are official and to be counted is the authority of the state to certify the EVs.  The President of the Senate does not certify anything; there is no such Constitutional authority other than the state.

And if Pence *could have* rejected EVs during the count, they why couldn't Kamala Harris do the exact same thing during the 2025 count?  All she would need would be a rump set of EVs sent up by the D state legislators in any state won by the R candidate.  We all agree that the Ds will shamelessly lie and cheat and the media will cover for them; what would stop her from rejecting enough R EVs to throw the election to the D candidate?

Points very well made.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2021, 01:00:55 am »
Points very well made.

Thank you @libertybele .  I know you see this differently and I appreciate you fairly considering my position.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2021, 01:01:34 am »
Which they should have done the last time the GOP was in control of those states, but let's hope this last election was the kick in the butt they needed.

That's right.  :beer:

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2021, 01:05:18 am »
I don't put anything past them.  So why pave the way for them by asserting something that is flatly against the plain language of the 12th Amendment, and that openly invites abuse?

No I completely agree with you...I'm just saying after the 2020 election we now know the Dems will do anything to win..and I don't trust SCOTUS to get involved.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2021, 01:07:04 am »
SCOTUS rejection of the Paxton case is one of the few issues on which @roamer_1 and I disagree, and even in our disagreement I acknowledge that he has a legitimate case.

 :beer: :seeya:

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And if Pence *could have* rejected EVs during the count, they why couldn't Kamala Harris do the exact same thing during the 2025 count?  All she would need would be a rump set of EVs sent up by the D state legislators in any state won by the R candidate.  We all agree that the Ds will shamelessly lie and cheat and the media will cover for them; what would stop her from rejecting enough R EVs to throw the election to the D candidate?

Ahh... the old law of unintended consequences... And directly what I meant elsewhere and always about setting new precedents.

That is right, exactly.

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2021, 01:18:49 am »
No, not like that. That would be portrayed as a local crime... The 'got stolen' part precludes collusion. Even if they nailed down the fact that the stolen ballots were used fraudulently, that they were stolen assumes the property owners did not want their property stolen.

Gotta do better than that.

The truck crossed State lines.  It doesn't get any better than that, if I properly understand your previous post.  The whole kibosh you described was based on the crime not crossing State lines, and that one most certainly did.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2021, 01:28:37 am »
The truck crossed State lines.  It doesn't get any better than that, if I properly understand your previous post.  The whole kibosh you described was based on the crime not crossing State lines, and that one most certainly did.

Perhaps I am mistaken. I had it that the truck made it to town, and that the ballots were 'stolen' locally.

Doesn't matter, as the one receiving the 'stolen' goods will be the one hung with it, and unless that is a democrat of caliber, that is likely a precinct or county problem.

It is dang hard to prove interstate conspiracy. The collusion has to cross state lines. That's why the Kraken was so neat. That collusion surely crossed all state lines and tied them all together.

and if wishes were wings, a frogs ass wouldn't bump the ground.  :shrug:

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2021, 01:31:57 am »
It's already perfectly clear the election was stolen.

The Supreme Court has already decided to ignore it, and besides that, there's nothing the courts can do about it now.

The sheeple will continue to chew their cud and sacrifice their lambs for slaughter.

The media will cover it up and help to steal the next election.
You do not understand this country whatsoever.

The supreme court is not the final arbiter.

The states are, which formed the Supreme Court, Congress, and the Presidency by drawing up the US Constitution.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2021, 01:34:35 am »
@roamer_1 has it right.  There is no provision in the Constitution to call "mulligans" on an election; the EVs were certified and that's the end of it.  There are mechanisms for Biden to be removed from office, but there is no mechanism to put Trump back in and that will not happen.

However we might get more than local criminal prosecutions and state level reforms.  If it becomes clear that Trump won a fair count the Biden admin will be crippled and the D agenda will suffer, and I believe the mass of people would become more demanding of transparent, auditable election results.
Respectfully, that is not the point.

The federal elections are arranged by the states, who are the ones who made the Constitution.

They remain the final arbiter, not some federal administrator or court.
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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2021, 01:42:43 am »
Perhaps I am mistaken. I had it that the truck made it to town, and that the ballots were 'stolen' locally.

Doesn't matter, as the one receiving the 'stolen' goods will be the one hung with it, and unless that is a democrat of caliber, that is likely a precinct or county problem.

It is dang hard to prove interstate conspiracy. The collusion has to cross state lines. That's why the Kraken was so neat. That collusion surely crossed all state lines and tied them all together.

and if wishes were wings, a frogs ass wouldn't bump the ground.  :shrug:

The theft of the truck is irrelevant.  Pallets of completed ballots crossing State lines are relevant.  This implies that thousands of ballots were cast out-of-state, should at least have triggered a Federal investigation to see if they were indeed filled out and counted, and it did not. 

The Feds were too busy ensuring the steal in PA.

Side question:  Do you have any idea how many States send people to Phoenix to see how the Audit is being conducted.  So far, it's all five "swing states" and a growing number more.  People from Utah were here yesterday because Salt Lake City used Dominion machines. 
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Offline HoustonSam

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2021, 01:49:33 am »
Respectfully, that is not the point.

The federal elections are arranged by the states, who are the ones who made the Constitution.

They remain the final arbiter, not some federal administrator or court.

The thread topic is "What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?"  I don't see how an opinion on that question - the election will not be "overturned" - cannot be the point.

I think the states *were* the final arbiter in 2020; SCOTUS refused to entertain any challenge to PA so refrained from acting as an arbiter, and Pence refused to entertain the idea that he could de-certify what the states had certified so also refrained from acting as an arbiter. 

For clarity I'll re-state what I've stated above : I think SCOTUS was wrong because the states should expect each other to act in accord with the Constitution and the states have no other forum for that question to be resolved, and Pence was right because the Constitution gives him no authority to certify or de-certify any EVs.

I'm not sure where we are in disagreement here.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: What Happens if the Election Audits Go Trump's Way?
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2021, 01:50:19 am »
The theft of the truck is irrelevant.  Pallets of completed ballots crossing State lines are relevant.  This implies that thousands of ballots were cast out-of-state, should at least have triggered a Federal investigation to see if they were indeed filled out and counted, and it did not. 

The Feds were too busy ensuring the steal in PA.

I get what you are saying, but bet me money that a precinct captain takes the hit if there ever is one.

Quote
Side question:  Do you have any idea how many States send people to Phoenix to see how the Audit is being conducted.  So far, it's all five "swing states" and a growing number more.  People from Utah were here yesterday because Salt Lake City used Dominion machines.

Yeah, I am seeing that. I surely hope this whole deal don't piddle out and we find out there never was a was.
I am reserving my excitement until it turns into something of substance. I would LOVE for Dominion to be on the hook.