Author Topic: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement  (Read 13713 times)

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Offline libertybele

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #75 on: June 07, 2021, 05:56:54 PM »
Yeah, and what's that got to do with the necessity of politics in human affairs?

@Sled Dog obviously not a dang thing.   :pop41:
GOD Bless America, have mercy upon this country and stop the evil that has a stranglehold on our Republic from prevailing.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #76 on: June 07, 2021, 06:08:50 PM »
@Sled Dog obviously not a dang thing.   :pop41:

I was just trying to figure out where you were going, is all.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #77 on: June 07, 2021, 08:05:32 PM »

Conservatism can't be populist?

What is "populism"?

Clearly conservatism doesn't fit the first definition, but it certainly is the second, which is more of a methods definition, and absolutely matches the third definition.

Of course, no Never Trumper Principled Conservative (TM) whiner is a conservative, and those people had the working man, anyway.

No, it does not. Conservatism, as it touches American politics, is a coalition of factions formed lately in the right wing of the Republican party. That coalition of factions have prerequisite principles that are unmovable, and are part and parcel, the formative parts of the agreement between factions. Conservatism by definition is charged with preserving and fighting for those principles, and is nothing else.

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2021, 08:13:36 PM »
ALL Never Trumpers are RINOs.

RINO is 'Republican in Name Only' by the definition of the acronym - I am not a Republican (SPIT), ergo, it is impossible for me to be a RINO. And therefore, your statement is in error on its face.

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That may be, I haven't inspected your closet.   But conservatism is a working man populist movement, and has been since Reagan wrested the nomination from Bush Daddy.

No it is not. Many a 'working man' is a union wonk, and a five star Democrat.

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What's important is winning the war.   Not dying in a hill that can be taken later in the battle.

When you forget what you are fighting for, you have already lost.

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Why didn't the allies bomb the socialist extermination camps to break the industrial slaughterhouses?   
Seems like stopping mass murder would be the "principled" thing to do. 
They decided winning the war was more important ...and the killings stopped because the war was won.

They were wrong in that. and the two were never mutually exclusive. Not that scurrilous decisions are not commonplace - It is war, after all.

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2021, 08:25:33 PM »
No.

The established fact is that the election of 2020 was stolen from the Americans that voted for Trump.

No, that is not an established fact

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Roamer denies this happened and requests evidence.


No, I do not deny that it happened. In fact, I am on the record saying it probably DID happen.Though proving it DOES require evidence.

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When presented with the evidence, Roamer says that it isn't evidence because it hasn't been presented in court.

It isn't evidence in that it is of little use without being vetted and proven in court. Much of what was counted as evidence has been defamed. Dominion particularly. None of the rest of it holds any more verity than the Dominion shtick did.

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He argues in circles on this matter and that is the mark of the thoroughly dishonest man.

It is not circular, and it is not dishonest. It is a matter of fact. Established fact is what gets you the win. Until it is established fact - Proven by court or by audit, or some other such authority, it means nothing. It does nothing.

Till then, tub-thumping is all you've got. I am not interested in tub-thumping. Nor joining in with tub-thumping. It is wasted time and energy.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2021, 08:31:35 PM »
No, it does not. Conservatism, as it touches American politics, is a coalition of factions formed lately in the right wing of the Republican party. That coalition of factions have prerequisite principles that are unmovable, and are part and parcel, the formative parts of the agreement between factions. Conservatism by definition is charged with preserving and fighting for those principles, and is nothing else.

Uh....

...no.

Conservative by definition has no definition.   Or haven't you noticed you can't define it, claim to be one and still deny the election of 2020 was stolen?
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #81 on: June 07, 2021, 08:34:09 PM »
No, that is not an established fact

Yes, it is.

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No, I do not deny that it happened. In fact, I am on the record saying it probably DID happen.Though proving it DOES require evidence.

Yes, you do.

When presented with the evidence you demand, you declare that it isn't evidence that no evidence has been presented.

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It isn't evidence in that it is of little use without being vetted and proven in court. Much of what was counted as evidence has been defamed. Dominion particularly. None of the rest of it holds any more verity than the Dominion shtick did.

See what I mean?

Don't worry, everyone else does.

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It is not circular, and it is not dishonest. It is a matter of fact. Established fact is what gets you the win. Until it is established fact - Proven by court or by audit, or some other such authority, it means nothing. It does nothing.

It is both.

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Till then, tub-thumping is all you've got. I am not interested in tub-thumping. Nor joining in with tub-thumping. It is wasted time and energy.

Yes, your circularity is so tiresome I'm not going to challenge it, I'm just going to point it out.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Absalom

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #82 on: June 07, 2021, 08:35:04 PM »
You don't need to make the effort to understand what others write.   After all, what did I say, really, except that without politics there is no other recourse than war.
But, hey, that would require independent thought and a comprehension of human nature that Plato may or may not have held.
After all, Madison was a fraud and a liar to, right?
Look, human nature isn't all light and goodness, something Plato refused to recognize in his elitist's view of the perfect society.   Heck, Madison figured that the losing Presidential candidate would set aside his rivalry with the winner and be happy to be the Vice President.   No friction going to happen there, right?
The reality is that the unrestrained human is a vicious and violent beast.   What enables humans to live together in groups of more than one each is the ability to discuss matters and see that a peaceful resolution to a mutual problem is better than beating the tar out of the other guy.   This is almost certainly because men have to live with women, who are most annoying. 
So, politics was invented as a part of the natural evolution of the human species.
But you clearly believe politics is nothing but pure evil and we should abandon it and instead go straight to shooting each other when we want to, because...law...laws are the product of politics, and that includes the laws we have against shooting each other randomly.
But, hey, politics is all bad, right?
-------------------------------
Sled, it's an opinion forum, so you're certainly entitled.
However making politics the contra of war is more than a stretch,
as it elevates and glorifies the vast majority of those far below noble.
As for Madison, along w/Jefferson and Monroe, they were three of our first five.
Now let's classify the last five, into our Curley, Larry and Moe; so you choose
from Bush, Clinton, Obama, Trump, Biden and box them, then compare them
to Madison and his colleagues.
Sled, at founding we were where we were, because of the likes of Madison.
Now we are where we are because of Curley, Larry and Moe.
Best of intentions aside; Politics/Politicians surely ain't the answer to our morass.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 09:02:13 PM by Absalom »

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #83 on: June 07, 2021, 08:41:38 PM »
Abandon politics?

Politics is humaty's greatest invention.   Not fire.   But like fire, politics can destroy as well as build.   The Rodents and the RINOs use politics to feed their greed, and hence to them it's a destructive tool.

The Americans need to use politics to build the necessary anti-Rodent coalition to heal the nation and eradicate the vermin infestation.

What happens when people don't have politics?   The human hand was evolved to build tools.   The human hand was also ideally evolved to be a fist.  People without the tools to build use their hands to fight.   It's our killer ape heritage.

Wrong - Politics is the main mover and shaker in war. Even wars thought to be religious in nature were really nothing more than politics. Perhaps it is a fine line to you, but America needs no more politics. It needs, desperately, statesmanship.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2021, 08:42:20 PM »
RINO is 'Republican in Name Only' by the definition of the acronym - I am not a Republican (SPIT), ergo, it is impossible for me to be a RINO. And therefore, your statement is in error on its face.

Fair enough.   When I use the term Never Trumper, I am referring to that non-Rodent wing of the American left who hate America.   All Never Trumpers fit THAT definition, since Rodents are by definition in their own class of Never America and not per se Never Trumpers.    That some of the Never Trumpers aren't official members of the GOP doesn't make them anything special.   They still hate America, as evidenced by their lack of support for the most conservative president since Reagan.

They want Allah, or some other weird God, to occupy the White House before they are satisfied, apparently.   

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No it is not. Many a 'working man' is a union wonk, and a five star Democrat.

Those are just the stupid ones.  Just because they're stupid doesn't mean they shouldn't be conservatives, since only the conservative ideology serves their best interests.

EVERYONE that votes Rodent is a moron, even the dead ones.

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When you forget what you are fighting for, you have already lost.

Then you've lost.

I know what I'm fighting for.

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They were wrong in that. and the two were never mutually exclusive. Not that scurrilous decisions are not commonplace - It is war, after all.

What was scurrilous about it? 

What was wrong in using war materiel to prosecute the war to it's completion, since the purpose of any side in fighting a war is supposed to be to minimize their own casualties.   Every bomb dropped on a non-military target was a bomb not used to protect the lives of Allied troops on the battlefield.

I never said I disagreed with the decision to not destroy the death camps, I just pointed it out as an example.   The jews of Germany allowed themselves to be victimized, the jews of the other countries, were victimized by the National Socialists and often their own governments, like Poland and France.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 08:54:22 PM by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #85 on: June 07, 2021, 08:43:50 PM »
Wrong - Politics is the main mover and shaker in war. Even wars thought to be religious in nature were really nothing more than politics. Perhaps it is a fine line to you, but America needs no more politics. It needs, desperately, statesmanship.

Yes, I understand that Never Trumpers have no clue about real human nature.   

But getting people to volunteer confirmation is always a good thing to get.

Wars are the failure of politics.

Diplomacy is, after all, the politics between nations.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2021, 08:44:37 PM »
Never mind me, I'm just eating  :2popcorn:
December 11, 2020:  "Government of the people, by the people and for the people has finally perished from the Earth."
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline libertybele

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2021, 08:46:18 PM »
GOD Bless America, have mercy upon this country and stop the evil that has a stranglehold on our Republic from prevailing.

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #88 on: June 07, 2021, 08:47:36 PM »
Uh....

...no.

Conservative by definition has no definition.   

False.

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Or haven't you noticed you can't define it,

I just DID define it. It is what it is.

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claim to be one and still deny the election of 2020 was stolen?

I made no such claim. In fact I am on the record right here in this thread claiming otherwise.
What I deny is that you have any useful and effective proof thereof.

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #89 on: June 07, 2021, 08:58:22 PM »
Yes, it is.
No, in fact, it is not, if for no other reason than that the information you are going on has not been vetted.

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Yes, you do.

No I do not. All the way back to the day after the election I stood on the ground that it had probably been stolen, but that proving it would be the hard part. That has been my position all the way along. And it remains the truth.

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When presented with the evidence you demand, you declare that it isn't evidence that no evidence has been presented.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE PRESENTED. There is no finding of fact. Wait till an audit proves it. THEN you have something. Prove it in court, THEN you have something. THEN you have something you can do.

All you have right now is theory ginned up by the right facing press... And utterly worthless for anything.

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Yes, your circularity is so tiresome I'm not going to challenge it, I'm just going to point it out.

It is not circular. It is the bare fact of it. You can whine, and cry, and throw dirt in the air all you want, but that's all you've got until an audit, or court finding, or other such authority establishes a proven, vetted fact.

Till then, it is useless hot air.

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #90 on: June 07, 2021, 09:04:39 PM »
Wars are the failure of politics.

Diplomacy is, after all, the politics between nations.

No, war is the failure of statesmanship. Diplomacy is also statesmanship. We need entirely less politicians, replaced by actual statesmen. Men who function according to principle and not according to the tattletale in the wind. Men who guard liberty with truth, and not men driven by greed, fame, and populism.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2021, 09:04:59 PM »
-------------------------------
Sled, it's an opinion forum, so certainty you're entitled.
However making politics the contra of war is more than a stretch,
as it elevates and glorifies the vast majority of those far below noble.
As for Madison, along w/Jefferson and Monroe, they were three of our first five.
Now let's classify the last five, our Curley, Larry and Moe; so you choose from
Bush, Clinton, Obama, Trump, Bidenxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxhold

Well, this is what happens when people own dictionaries.

They get to learn what words mean.  Politics is the art of talking to get people to do what you want without resorting to violence.   The threat of violence is a traditional tool in politics.   The execution of the threat is what happens when the poltiicking breaks down and mutual intransigence occurs.

I can't help it you have emotions that cloud your understanding of basic vocabulary.

What can I do to help you?

politic - 1 wise; prudent and sagacious in devising and pursuing measures; shrewd; diplomatic; 2 prudently or artfully contrived; well-devised;adapted to it's end; expedient, as a plan, action, remark, etc. 3 crafty, unscrupulous, cunning, artful, "I have been politic with my friend, smooth with my enemies" = Shakespeare.
The Webster's New Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language, ca. 1973.

I know it's a good dictionary because it's got 3000 pages, and not on any of those pages can be found the word "transsexual".  Plus, it's old and smells good.

Does that help?   It's a much better resource than that skimpy site dictionary.com, and it only cost me $1.75.   

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2021, 09:09:47 PM »
No, war is the failure of statesmanship. Diplomacy is also statesmanship. We need entirely less politicians, replaced by actual statesmen. Men who function according to principle and not according to the tattletale in the wind. Men who guard liberty with truth, and not men driven by greed, fame, and populism.

Statesmen are experts at....this is a really tricky concept, so you'll have to work at it...politics.

You do know that, don't you?

You also know that swapping synonyms out in a definition only alter the meaning slightly in most cases.   Calling a pool of blood incarnadine instead of simply red adds to the poetry, not the essential meaning.

As for guarding liberty with the truth, the only people I see doing that are those honest people actually admitting the election of 2020 was stolen.  Thank you for making your stance on the defense of liberty clear.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #93 on: June 07, 2021, 09:22:28 PM »
No, in fact, it is not, if for no other reason than that the information you are going on has not been vetted.

Yes, in fact, it is.

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No I do not. All the way back to the day after the election I stood on the ground that it had probably been stolen, but that proving it would be the hard part. That has been my position all the way along. And it remains the truth.

Wasn't hard to prove, as it was proven.

The Constitution is not a difficult document to find on-line.   The relevant clause can be found therein.  There were insufficient Biden electors chosen according to the requirements of the Constitution.

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THERE IS NO EVIDENCE PRESENTED. There is no finding of fact. Wait till an audit proves it. THEN you have something. Prove it in court, THEN you have something. THEN you have something you can do.

Yes, we presented evidence to you, starting with the Constitution.   The Constitution is not a difficult document to find on-line.  The relevant clause can be found there in.  There were insufficient Biden electors chosen according to the requirements of the Constitution.

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All you have right now is theory ginned up by the right facing press... And utterly worthless for anything.

What I have is the facts of the election and the Constitution.  The Constitution is not a difficult document to find on-line.  The relevant clause can be found there in.  There were insufficient Biden electors chosen according to the requirements of the Constitution.

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It is not circular. It is the bare fact of it. You can whine, and cry, and throw dirt in the air all you want, but that's all you've got until an audit, or court finding, or other such authority establishes a proven, vetted fact.

Again, you've been presented with facts, you reject the facts and insist no facts were presented.   Thus repeating the Reince Preibus Cycle.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2021, 09:24:41 PM »
False.

He says my claim that he has no definition of the word "conservative" is false.

He provides no definition of the word "conservative" to validate his refutation.

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I just DID define it. It is what it is.

Conservatism is God?  When asked who He was, He said "I yam what I yam".   Oh.  Wait, that was Pop-Eye.

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I made no such claim. In fact I am on the record right here in this thread claiming otherwise.
What I deny is that you have any useful and effective proof thereof.

The Constitution is not a difficult document to find on-line.  The relevant clause can be found there in.  There were insufficient Biden electors chosen according to the requirements of the Constitution.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sighlass

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2021, 10:20:26 PM »
The only thing worse than lying to others is lying to yourself. You're a very good liar.

Just wow.... you either don't know Roamer very well or have something stuck up your behind so far you can't see straight. Roamer and I don't mesh 100% of the time, but only because I tend to bend a little more the morality angle and he towards economics. We always seem to end up at the same juncture eventually. But his waiver on conservatism, is not something most here would dare claim unless trying to play the court jester.
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Offline Sighlass

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2021, 10:27:51 PM »
As scripture says; you cannot serve two masters.  The President is the master of the nation for four years. Those that say they hate Trump, and defer to Biden helped give Biden the Presidency, and yet swear they did no such thing.  Truth?  A long ways from those that deny their own handiwork, and words.

Another "just wow" moment.... I am not to serve two masters, true... but anyone that goes by the name " @christian " should know whom that Master is... and it ain't a person on Earth. I don't care if the late Billy Graham ran for President and won, I wouldn't dare call him Master, cause he is fallible. 
Older men are to be temperate, dignified, self controlled, and sound in faith, love and perseverance. - Titus 2:2

Offline Sighlass

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #97 on: June 07, 2021, 10:40:25 PM »
ALL Never Trumpers are RINOs.

The wows just keep a coming....

Nope, not all never-trumpers are RINOs .... The press (MSM) sure focuses on a lot of them now days, but those usually are not principled politicians... They actually tend to be actual Rino's for the most part... but not all, some are just butt hurt because Trump treated them like dirt when they didn't kiss his ring. Why, because Trump has the grace of a bull in a china shop, his demure is "grab em by the ***** and his morals are about as steady as his marriages were.. (same as his NY values he crowed about).  What was Trump, a freaking populace that changed views about as often as most of us change our undergarments. To some Trump's character endeared them to him, perhaps because they weren't perfect either and they tired of politics being played by the books. Heck, I am far from perfect, but I can't see voting for someone just because it might make me look more perfect. I want someone that knows they ain't God in the flesh, because only such a person knows the right direction to look for answers worth following.
Older men are to be temperate, dignified, self controlled, and sound in faith, love and perseverance. - Titus 2:2

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #98 on: June 07, 2021, 10:43:16 PM »
Yes, we presented evidence to you, starting with the Constitution.   The Constitution is not a difficult document to find on-line.  The relevant clause can be found there in.  There were insufficient Biden electors chosen according to the requirements of the Constitution.


NO... According to YOU, not according to the Constitution.

On point is the Constitution assigning the sole authority to state legislatures wrt the appointment of electors.
State legislatures are the sole authority.
So what the state legislatures write is how it works.

Well, no one has presented to me the whole of the body of law as written by those various states wrt not only elections, but also contingencies both to elections and generally, where those states may have assigned their authority however they did.... What happens when there are contingencies? What happens in emergencies?

Nobody knows. All we have right now is you bellowing around, and five separate state legislatures, each of which certified their elections as having been conducted according to their laws and their say-so.  Get this now: The SOLE AUTHORITY APPROVED and CERTIFIED that they are alright with how their elections were conducted.

Now, silly me, but I though the Constitution made those state legislatures the sole authority and arbiter of how they conduct elections.... And with no evidence to the contrary, and with their (ALL FIVE SEPARATELY) certifications made, you are telling me that somewhere in the Constitution YOU are the sole authority and arbiter of all of those elections.

You've got nothing. You have an unproven theory provoked by general election laws with no real idea beyond that as to how those legislatures may have otherwise empowered various agents by law or by precedent. It is nowhere near as cut-and-dried as you ordain at the top of your voice.

That's a big complicated monkey-knot, relying on the whole body of law in five states... Your knee-jerk reckoning notwithstanding. That is why I will wait for the establishment of fact.

Offline Sighlass

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #99 on: June 07, 2021, 10:47:44 PM »
Actually, it was the populism of men like Sam Adams that led us into and through the Revolution. Populism...like intellectualism...is not inherently good or bad, it is simply the mounting of enthusiasm to advance a cause. If that enthusiasm is directed to elevate a wise and considered course of policy. I would argue that Reagan was a populist, he inspired tremendous enthusiasm in the GOP base and directed it towards the achievement of wise policy. Populism, motivating the populace to fight for "the constitution's fundamental undying principles", is no vice. The Founding Father's...and Reagan....used populism in this way, as has Trump.

In the first primary, we saw an issue that pitted populism vs solid conservatism.... One person went full hog to support ethanol while one didn't because best thing for the country. One was a solid conservative view, one was pandering for votes because the state had a lot of corn growers.
Older men are to be temperate, dignified, self controlled, and sound in faith, love and perseverance. - Titus 2:2