Author Topic: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement  (Read 13708 times)

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Online skeeter

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2021, 11:44:59 AM »
Excellent @Mesaclone. I’m gonna consider your post the final word in this debate, which has gone on far far too long.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2021, 12:09:25 PM »
Make America Great Again is not an "empty" cause, which renders your point a bit moot. And now who's splitting hairs...Reagan's popular appeal was "incidentaL". Perhaps...and yet was instrumental to his achieving conservative goals. One could and should argue that Trump's popular appeal is likewise "incidental" and that its the "achieving of conservative goals...aka MAGA" that is at point. Securing the border...which was as secure as its ever been by 2020...is not a bumper sticker. Putting the interests of American businesses...corporate tax rate cuts and massive deregulation...is not a bumper sticker. Attaining energy independence...which we did...was not a bumper sticker. Looking forward...putting an end to atrocities like Critical Race Theory...is not a bumper sticker. Ensuring freedom of speech and an end to online partisan censorship...as Desantis is attempting in Florida and which Trump is the leading advocate...is not a bumper sticker.

I respect your opinion a great deal, roamer...which is why I continually try to argue the President's case and persuade you to at least a tolerance of president Trump. I realize its an uphill...perhaps hopeless struggle...but the conservative movement can't succeed if we are fragmented and at war with each other. And here's a truth you may find uncomfortable...in terms of policy...there's not an inch of space between Desantis, Hawley, Cotton...and President Trump. Despite that, this silly NT movement continues to ensure the Right remains fragmented and at war with itself. That makes...not just you...but all of us...useful idiots of the Left.

So my efforts to persuade you will continue against all odds...because you are needed in this fight. I believe in the same principles that you do...in fact I admire your tight hold on principle...but we cannot so narrowly define conservatism as to ensure we lose every political struggle. We cannot support only the "perfect" candidates, or we will have a handful of the perfect vs a mob of Leftists as our end result. Populism is about appeal...it reaches out and offers a vision of conservatism to those who otherwise would remain "in the cave, fearing the light"...populism is not in any way a counter to conservative thought, it is simply the promotion of that thought to a wider audience of voters.

Do you understand what conservative policies we can put in place when we lose elections?

And to be clear. No one...sure as hell not myself...is advocating we surrender ANY of our conservative principles. Period. What I'm advocating is quite the opposite...that populism is the means by which we educate the middle class as to what those principles are and why they matter.

If perfect existed .... it would be this post    pointing-up

Excellent @Mesaclone   Simply excellent.   Thank you for posting it.   :beer:
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2021, 12:13:15 PM »
Excellent @Mesaclone. I’m gonna consider your post the final word in this debate, which has gone on far far too long.

 :thumbsup:  Me, too @skeeter
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Offline DB

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2021, 12:48:58 PM »
Wow. "Make America Great Again" has very little actual meaning. It is not call to liberty or aiming at any specific goal. It means something different to each person that tries to apply it.

Who's definition of "great"? The left's definition of great is some imagined Utopia where everyone thinks like them. When? The 1850's, 1950's, 1960's, 1970's... It is wide open to anything you think fondly of...

There is no call to organize towards any specific action or goal in that slogan. How does one even evaluate if the goal has been achieved or not? Just feel good rhetoric empty of anything specific. Populism in a nutshell...




Offline corbe

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2021, 01:01:12 PM »
 :thumbsup:
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline christian

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2021, 01:03:28 PM »
 corbe:
With all due respect @christian The Election was rigged when 6 States shut down counting in the middle of the night to figure out how many votes they needed to manufacture. I find it highly improbable that 6M+ Conservatives sat home on their azz and didn't vote for Trump, the results would have been the same no matter what these 'Nevers' would have done.  IMHO

   The boogeyman called, I told him I wasn't at home.

christian:
You missed the point corbe.  It wasn't was it election fraud or NeverTrumpers.

Annihilate America believes truth is a crap sandwich,and not lock-stepping is very tiring, regardless of how tireless he is.  What an interesting posture, conflicted, but an interesting posture.
 :tongue2: :beer: :tongue2:
 It was election fraud and NeverTrumpers working in lockstep to force upon us what they did. 
Don't sell the NeverTrumpers short, they accomplished a lot, and they are hardcore lockstepping to this very day.  i'm not one to be easily deceived, i've seen so much of it over many decades.  The democrats haven't quit in their intolerance to Trump, neither have the NeverTrumpers, co-incidence?  i think not.  Birds of a feather.....
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 01:11:12 PM by christian »

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2021, 01:25:54 PM »
If perfect existed .... it would be this post    pointing-up

Excellent @Mesaclone   Simply excellent.   Thank you for posting it.   :beer:

You and Skeeter are too kind.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2021, 01:37:24 PM »
Make America Great Again is not an "empty" cause, which renders your point a bit moot.

Well, it wasn't the first time around... You know... Back in '80...

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And now who's splitting hairs...Reagan's popular appeal was "incidentaL". Perhaps...and yet was instrumental to his achieving conservative goals. One could and should argue that Trump's popular appeal is likewise "incidental" and that its the "achieving of conservative goals...aka MAGA" that is at point.

You misunderstand me. Reagan's popularity in politics was centered in his governance of California. He had the chops, and he earned it.  His wider popularity as a movie star is what I am saying is incidental... Exactly as is Tumpy's.

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Securing the border...which was as secure as its ever been by 2020...is not a bumper sticker. Putting the interests of American businesses...corporate tax rate cuts and massive deregulation...is not a bumper sticker. Attaining energy independence...which we did...was not a bumper sticker. Looking forward...putting an end to atrocities like Critical Race Theory...is not a bumper sticker. Ensuring freedom of speech and an end to online partisan censorship...as Desantis is attempting in Florida and which Trump is the leading advocate...is not a bumper sticker.

All hot air. All gone. Dubya did the same dang thing. That's why governing by EO means nothing and does not count. I know y'all can't stand it, but it is damnwell true. And not long ago that was what every Conservative knew. So quit ticking on your fingers the things he made temporary gains in... That's the candy from the clown at the front of the parade. Soon enough, you'll get a belly ache from that. Tell me the things we get to keep. That is what would make him different from the Moderate Wing presidents we have had since Reagan. And that is the performance I demand.

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I respect your opinion a great deal, roamer...

Despite our contention, I offer the same respect. You are pretty singularly the only inner-circle die-hard Tumpist that offers argument and some sort of half-assed defense. Well, that didn't come out to mean you are half-assed... That is not what I mean. You DO strive mightily and with fervor, and with intelligent, well meaning arguments. But they are the very same arguments as always. The very same attempts to color me the RINO, the very same attempts to justify an altered, hyphenated conservatism - Just the very same as the fanbois for Boosh, McCain't, and Romulus. It is the same old pragmatist/populist song. THAT is what is half-assed, and hard to defend.

I can and will tear that down, every time. But I respect your position, all the same. And you are always pretty easy to talk to, and I believe your intentions are good.

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which is why I continually try to argue the President's case and persuade you to at least a tolerance of president Trump. I realize its an uphill...perhaps hopeless struggle...

Absolutely hopeless. I have been seared by the nuclear blast of twenty trillion dollars going up in smoke. And a gazillion small businesses shuttered - Including mine. There ain't a single chance in hell you can put a red bow on that.

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but the conservative movement can't succeed if we are fragmented and at war with each other.

Yours is not a Conservative movement. See fiscal conservatism. See libertarianism. Then look at who is represented in the Conservative Coalition. ALL of them must be represented to call it a Conservative movement. First do no harm... Oops! Too late for that.

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And here's a truth you may find uncomfortable...in terms of policy...there's not an inch of space between Desantis, Hawley, Cotton...and President Trump. Despite that, this silly NT movement continues to ensure the Right remains fragmented and at war with itself. That makes...not just you...but all of us...useful idiots of the Left.

Doesn't make me uncomfortable in the least. Every RINO out there says the same thing in the silly season. That's why hawking policy is bullcrap. Show me the money.

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So my efforts to persuade you will continue against all odds...because you are needed in this fight. I believe in the same principles that you do...in fact I admire your tight hold on principle...but we cannot so narrowly define
conservatism as to ensure we lose every political struggle.

Quite the other way around. The minute you give in and compromise any principle thing, you have already lost, and there is no way I can support that. Any good that comes of it is offset by what was lost in the compromise - and chip by chip, those losses continue to erode away the foundations - To include your movement. In the grand total, liberalism won during the Tump administration. The ball went LEFT.

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We cannot support only the "perfect" candidates, or we will have a handful of the perfect vs a mob of Leftists as our end result. Populism is about appeal...it reaches out and offers a vision of conservatism to those who otherwise would remain "in the cave, fearing the light"...populism is not in any way a counter to conservative thought, it is simply the promotion of that thought to a wider audience of voters.

Pragmatism yet again. If only I would compromise...  *****rollingeyes*****
It is compromise that has brought us here. It is compromise that has filled the Republican ranks with RINOs. The stench of it makes me wretch.

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Do you understand what conservative policies we can put in place when we lose elections?

Not at the expense of other Conservatives and their policies. Carving off fiscal conservatism and libertarianism is exactly the same approach as is ALWAYS the argument toward compromise. Without those two, you are just another advocate of Big.gov... And I will not lend my endorsement to that. All or nothing pal... Because if you won't support all, you deserve nothing. Y'all are fond of this 'hang together or hang separately' bullcrap until I point out that y'all are the ones dividing off the Ficons and Civcons. It's y'all that are causing us to hang separately, not me.

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And to be clear. No one...sure as hell not myself...is advocating we surrender ANY of our conservative principles. Period. What I'm advocating is quite the opposite...that populism is the means by which we educate the middle class as to what those principles are and why they matter.

Don't you see? You already have.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 01:48:29 PM by roamer_1 »

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2021, 01:48:28 PM »
I really like what @sneakypete and @Mesaclone had to say here.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2021, 02:00:14 PM »
Utter nonsense.

Conservatives were never 'Chamber of Commerce'. nor 'country club'.

And Conservatism by its nature cannot be 'populist', and is only incidentally 'nationalist'

Tumpism is no more conservative than any other hyphenated 'conservatism' that came before.


Conservatism can't be populist?

What is "populism"?

Quote
populism
[ pop-yuh-liz-uhm ]SHOW IPA

noun
1 any of various, often antiestablishment or anti-intellectual political movements or philosophies that offer unorthodox solutions or policies and appeal to the common person rather than according with traditional party or partisan ideologies.
2 grass-roots democracy; working-class activism; egalitarianism.
3 representation or extolling of the common person, the working class, the underdog, etc.:
populism in the arts.

(initial capital letter) the political philosophy of the People's party.


Clearly conservatism doesn't fit the first definition, but it certainly is the second, which is more of a methods definition, and absolutely matches the third definition.

Of course, no Never Trumper Principled Conservative (TM) whiner is a conservative, and those people had the working man, anyway.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2021, 02:10:01 PM »
Yeah, you keep trying to rub RINOs off on me. I ain't never backed the RINOs, and I consider the Moderate Wing of the Republican party - You know, the 'Bush country club' to be every bit the enemy that the democrats are.

ALL Never Trumpers are RINOs.

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Ain't nobody here more blue collar than me. So that hyphenation doesn't work a lick. And populism is not conservatism, and never can be. In fact, populism is every bit as daft and unprincipled as the liberalism you claim to detest.

That may be, I haven't inspected your closet.   But conservatism is a working man populist movement, and has been since Reagan wrested the nomination from Bush Daddy.

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Right. ALWAYS a reason to put aside the very principles you claim to stand upon.

What's important is winning the war.   Not dying in a hill that can be taken later in the battle.

Why didn't the allies bomb the socialist extermination camps to break the industrial slaughterhouses?   

Seems like stopping mass murder would be the "principled" thing to do. 

They decided winning the war was more important ...and the killings stopped because the war was won.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2021, 02:17:17 PM »
I can't deny that you are an honest man. Hyperbolic...but honest. Curmudgeony. Grouchy. Scroogy. But honest =)

Read the article if you haven't...it makes clear that Trump is not the source of the MAGA movement, he is a byproduct. An important one, but like many others (Desantis, Noem, Paul, Cotton, Hawley, etcetera) he is riding the wave of populist conservatism....a term that simply means conservatism reaching out to motivate the middle class to engage in the political process. Not sure why you'd think that counter to conservatism...populism is a method that builds enthusiasm for a cause by speaking truth (with a bit of charisma if possible) to folks. It is not itself a philosophy. In this case, it is a method used to build support and enthusiasm for conservatism. There's just no way that should be seen as a bad thing. You seem to be applying anachronistic view of populism as a "befuddle the dumb masses with snake oil" sort of magic trick....that is not what we are seeing here with the MAGA movement.

Many aspects of conservatism also appeal to the more rational of the lower percentiles, too.   Many of them want jobs, not handouts.   Many of them are America-Firsters.   Many of them abhor the slaughter of babies.   They need to be reached and taught, then they're in.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2021, 02:19:27 PM »
------------------------------
Mesaclone, since you're a smart lad, why are you auditioning for a clown award?
Conservatism was articulated by the Ancients, among them Plato, as  a body of enduring principles dealing w/human nature, involving attitudes, behaviors, impulses and sentiments across Mankind.
It had absolutely nothing to do w/either politics or religion, as it was birthed by the Natural Law;
the latter being Man's guide for thousands of years as the Scholastics, Locke, Hume, Burke
as well as Babbitt and Kirk, in our time asserted, to name but a handful.
The ideas and thoughts of these wise Men gave Conservatism integrity down thru history;
yet in our time it's morphed into an errand boy for politicians/politics, which in my judgment,
is its death sentence!!!

Plato's Republic was a totalitarian's paradise.

Plato did not have the economic understanding the people of today have, if they're not socialists.

Plato's importance in Western Culture was his teaching of method, not of specific ideas.   Just like his mentor, Ben's friend, Socrates.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2021, 02:28:37 PM »
I can't deny that you are an honest man. Hyperbolic...but honest. Curmudgeony. Grouchy. Scroogy. But honest =)



No.

The established fact is that the election of 2020 was stolen from the Americans that voted for Trump.

Roamer denies this happened and requests evidence.

When presented with the evidence, Roamer says that it isn't evidence because it hasn't been presented in court.

He argues in circles on this matter and that is the mark of the thoroughly dishonest man.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2021, 02:31:19 PM »
The truth? Really? You called someone a liar that isn't. That makes you what?

Populism is just a different fickle mob that chases its own priorities. Populism has no foundation to build anything that actually stands for any meaningful amount of time. It is constantly shifting sand. Our constitution was based on fundamental unchanging principles - populism is an anathema to it.

What about populism based on Constitutional principles?

Or are you claiming the Constitution does not appeal to the majority of the people?
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Online Absalom

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2021, 02:32:02 PM »
You’ve got your wires crossed. I’m saying modern western religious belief and doctrine is deeply effected by Platonic thought. Not vice versa. Christian apologetics are rife with Platonic assumptions and thought. But my original reference was to Plato’s connection to religious perception generally...not to Christianity nor Judaism...ancient Athens was  the epicenter of religious thought at the time...and Plato’s concepts assume the existence of a prime mover of the universe.
-------------------------
Fair retort and well articulated; yet my perspective differs.
Indeed, Rulers such as Hammurabi, Cyrus and Sargon, while hardly Christians, did
foster a religious impulse within their cultures/societies in the Cradle of Civilization.
Yet I assert that the Ancient Greeks were motivated differently because of their perspectives.
For them, ideas were catalysts for their creativity/innovation and the latter were birthed by their
spirit of inquiry, which was uncovered thru Reason and its rules of Deductive and Inductive Logic.
In my judgement, this level of intellectual discipline uniquely distinguishes the Ancient Greeks
from each and every culture, society and civilization, for all eternity.
We certainly are not the greatest and the sooner we abandon out infatuation
w/politics and politicians, the sooner our nation/state will emerge from its long nightmare.




Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2021, 02:34:25 PM »
The tail wagging the dog. 'Mounting enthusiasm to advance a cause' is exactly bass ackwards... And leads to situations like we have now... A popularity for an empty cause driven entirely by the flatulence of populism itself. It has no success and requires none. There are no goals but those found upon bumper-stickers and meaningless catch phrases. Be careful what you wish for, because such a thing will turn and bite its master just as easy as anything else.

And Reagan's popular appeal was incidental. He was fully vetted and proven as governor of California. And he performed accordingly.

Demanding honest elections is now an "empty cause" - this is why Principled Conservatism (TM) is neither.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2021, 02:38:57 PM »
-------------------------
Fair retort and well articulated; yet my perspective differs.
Indeed, Rulers such as Hammurabi, Cyrus and Sargon, while hardly Christians, did
foster a religious impulse within their cultures/societies in the Cradle of Civilization.
Yet I assert that the Ancient Greeks were motivated differently because of their perspectives.
For them, ideas were catalysts for their creativity/innovation and the latter were birthed by their
spirit of inquiry, which was uncovered thru Reason and its rules of Deductive and Inductive Logic.
In my judgement, this level of intellectual discipline uniquely distinguishes the Ancient Greeks
from each and every culture, society and civilization, for all eternity.
We certainly are not the greatest and the sooner we abandon out infatuation
w/politics and politicians, the sooner our nation/state will emerge from its long nightmare.

Abandon politics?

Politics is humaty's greatest invention.   Not fire.   But like fire, politics can destroy as well as build.   The Rodents and the RINOs use politics to feed their greed, and hence to them it's a destructive tool.

The Americans need to use politics to build the necessary anti-Rodent coalition to heal the nation and eradicate the vermin infestation.

What happens when people don't have politics?   The human hand was evolved to build tools.   The human hand was also ideally evolved to be a fist.  People without the tools to build use their hands to fight.   It's our killer ape heritage.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline libertybele

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2021, 03:08:47 PM »
Abandon politics?

Politics is humaty's greatest invention.   Not fire.   But like fire, politics can destroy as well as build.   The Rodents and the RINOs use politics to feed their greed, and hence to them it's a destructive tool.

The Americans need to use politics to build the necessary anti-Rodent coalition to heal the nation and eradicate the vermin infestation.

What happens when people don't have politics?   The human hand was evolved to build tools.   The human hand was also ideally evolved to be a fist.  People without the tools to build use their hands to fight.   It's our killer ape heritage.

What happens when political parties don't adhere to the Constitution?  We're living it.
GOD Bless America, have mercy upon this country and stop the evil that has a stranglehold on our Republic from prevailing.

Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2021, 03:15:58 PM »
America First and foremost - I am an American.  I was born in America.  I was raised in America.  I live and work in America.  My family has served America in the Armed Forces.  I pay taxes to the American Government. I vote in American elections.  I have an American passort. 

American government is supposed to work for and advance the interests of its citizens - not the Globalists, not the Chamber of Commerce, not the World Trade Organization, not the World Bank, not the International Monetary Fund, not the United Nations, and not the Chinese Communist Party.
Reporting from the Automated Teller Machine of Limousine Liberal Dems, the People's Democratic Republic of Taxachusetts

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2021, 04:45:20 PM »
What happens when political parties don't adhere to the Constitution?  We're living it.

Yeah, and what's that got to do with the necessity of politics in human affairs?
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Online Absalom

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2021, 05:37:24 PM »
Plato's Republic was a totalitarian's paradise.
Plato did not have the economic understanding the people of today have, if they're not socialists.
Plato's importance in Western Culture was his teaching of method, not of specific ideas.   Just like his mentor, Ben's friend, Socrates.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Er.................are you auditioning for some sorta comedy stunt ????
Plato was:
* arguably the wisest Man ever created by the Almighty,
* the definer of the Psyche (Soul) of Man, some 400 years before Roman Catholicism was born,
* the identifier of Natural Law as the guidepost for Human Nature.
The Greek Assembly in Athens, was the model for the Roman Senate and all the
representative bodies formed by Man, up to the present, in particular, Parliaments.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2021, 05:42:04 PM »

-----------------------------------------------------------
Er.................are you auditioning for some sorta comedy stunt ????
Plato was:
* arguably the wisest Man ever created by the Almighty,
* the definer of the Psyche (Soul) of Man, some 400 years before Roman Catholicism was born,
* the identifier of Natural Law as the guidepost for Human Nature.
The Greek Assembly in Athens, was the model for the Roman Senate and all the
representative bodies formed by Man, up to the present, in particular, Parliaments.

And since his opinions were often not founded on empirical reality, his conclusions from 25 centuries ago are of limited value to the modern world.

His Republic would have been a freakin' totalitarian nightmare.   The Republic founded by James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, et al, was much more realistic and much more fascinating.

As a training for presenting rationale, fine.    Since his arguments lacked founding, one has to recognize him for what he was, an outstanding man of his time...but his time is past.   

Hint:  His culture refused to accept the related concepts of zero and infinity.  That severely limited the distances they could go conceptually.

And, yes, we all know that Athens is the recognized "birthplace" of democracy.   It's implementation had flaws.  Serious flaws.   Flaws that really haven't been fixed, like what do with their Brutuses and Pelosies.

And, of course, Plato had NOTHING to do with the development of Athenian democracy.   That Golden Age blossomed and faded before Plato was born.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 05:48:45 PM by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Online Absalom

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2021, 05:46:24 PM »
Abandon politics?
Politics is humaty's greatest invention.   Not fire.   But like fire, politics can destroy as well as build.   The Rodents and the RINOs use politics to feed their greed, and hence to them it's a destructive tool.
The Americans need to use politics to build the necessary anti-Rodent coalition to heal the nation and eradicate the vermin infestation.
What happens when people don't have politics?   The human hand was evolved to build tools.   The human hand was also ideally evolved to be a fist.  People without the tools to build use their hands to fight.   It's our killer ape heritage.
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Politics is the neurosis of those desperate for constant attention,
who consciously choose to be shallow and unenlightened.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 05:52:53 PM by Absalom »

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2021, 05:53:42 PM »
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Politics is the neurosis of those desperate for constant attention,
who consciously choose to be shallow and unenlightened.
are frauds and hustlers

You don't need to make the effort to understand what others write.   After all, what did I say, really, except that without politics there is no other recourse than war.

But, hey, that would require independent thought and a comprehension of human nature that Plato may or may not have held.

After all, Madison was a fraud and a liar to, right?

Look, human nature isn't all light and goodness, something Plato refused to recognize in his elitist's view of the perfect society.   Heck, Madison figured that the losing Presidential candidate would set aside his rivalry with the winner and be happy to be the Vice President.   No friction going to happen there, right?

The reality is that the unrestrained human is a vicious and violent beast.   What enables humans to live together in groups of more than one each is the ability to discuss matters and see that a peaceful resolution to a mutual problem is better than beating the tar out of the other guy.   This is almost certainly because men have to live with women, who are most annoying. 

So, politics was invented as a part of the natural evolution of the human species.

But you clearly believe politics is nothing but pure evil and we should abandon it and instead go straight to shooting each other when we want to, because...law...laws are the product of politics, and that includes the laws we have against shooting each other randomly.

But, hey, politics is all bad, right?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 06:13:52 PM by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.