Author Topic: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement  (Read 13711 times)

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Offline Victoria33

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2021, 09:34:02 PM »
Yes...but can you convince those still within to come into the light?  That's essentially the very difficult task of every conservative  leader. As in the allegory, the cave dwellers can become quite dangerous.
@Mesaclone

Yes, I can, and have done it in politics, turned a county, with my husband, from Democrat to Republican, and my other areas of human life - been a problem solver all my life and that is longer than you have been alive.   :patriot:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 09:49:03 PM by Victoria33 »

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2021, 09:54:51 PM »
@Mesaclone

No, it really has little to do with my personal dislike of Tumpy. It has to do, almost exclusively with performance, past and present. I told you before, I vote record, not popularity, not promises from the stump. Not baby kissing and handshaking. None of that crap matters to me at all.

Record. Will he uphold the principles of the Conservative Coalition... That's it. Entirely.

So you ARE voting Trump then...obviously.
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2021, 09:56:11 PM »
@Mesaclone

Yes, I can, and have done it in politics, turned a county, with my husband, from Democrat to Republican, and my other areas of human life - been a problem solver all my life and that is longer than you have been alive.   :patriot:

Much respect.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Online Absalom

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2021, 10:26:26 PM »
Ah...reminds of the great painting by Raphael...you know...Aristotle and Plato walking side by side surrounded by the other greats. Natural law is of course the source of all as per Plato...but it is not disconnected from the religious and the political as you seem to suggest. If you are arguing that the philosophy of Plato is not intimately linked to all Western religious and moral thought...well...you need to go back and read the great works like Timaeus. Aristotle and his focus on facts and "what is" rather than what should be...you could maybe argue his philosophy is free of politics and belief...but even that's a reach. But you ARE right that Plato is the foundation of conservative thought...but arguing that it has "absolutely nothing to do with politics or religion" is ludicrous. Plato DEFINES the very meaning of politics and religion...Natural law is the source of philosophy but Plato did not deny its direct application to politics/religion. Rather, it was the pillar upon which his views on both was built.
Of course...not sure what you're trying to convey about THIS discussion...but its an interesting side discussion if nothing else.
--------------------------------
Let me try the reality of a timeline from history.
Wise Greeks, such as Plato, reflected/wrote some 400 years before Christ and Roman Catholicism.
Further Old Testament Judaism was restricted to the insular Jewish people of Judea, during
Classical Ancient Greece.
As such, the ideas & philosophy of Plato, Aristotle and their colleagues, was not influenced by
either religion, as one did not exist and the other was confined to a small city/state near Galilee.
Repeating, the essence of the ideas, among them principled conservatism; of these wise Greeks
was derived from the Natural Law, the benchmark for Mankind's attitudes, behaviors, impulses
and sentiments which defined Human Nature.
Given your sanctimonious pretentions, suggest you desist in calling anyone else ludicrous.

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2021, 11:34:04 PM »
So you ARE voting Trump then...obviously.

There must be some failure to communicate :

Obviously NOT.
Performance = NONE. Or nearly none.
Failure in fiscal Conservatism.
Failure in libertarianism.

I am LESS likely to vote for him now than when he started.
And I was utterly incapable of voting for him then.
On the record.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2021, 11:49:00 PM »
--------------------------------
Let me try the reality of a timeline from history.
Wise Greeks, such as Plato, reflected/wrote some 400 years before Christ and Roman Catholicism.
Further Old Testament Judaism was restricted to the insular Jewish people of Judea, during
Classical Ancient Greece.
As such, the ideas & philosophy of Plato, Aristotle and their colleagues, was not influenced by
either religion, as one did not exist and the other was confined to a small city/state near Galilee.
Repeating, the essence of the ideas, among them principled conservatism; of these wise Greeks
was derived from the Natural Law, the benchmark for Mankind's attitudes, behaviors, impulses
and sentiments which defined Human Nature.
Given your sanctimonious pretentions, suggest you desist in calling anyone else ludicrous.

You’ve got your wires crossed. I’m saying modern western religious belief and doctrine is deeply effected by Platonic thought. Not vice versa. Christian apologetics are rife with Platonic assumptions and thought. But my original reference was to Plato’s connection to religious perception generally...not to Christianity nor Judaism...ancient Athens was the epicenter of religious thought at the time...and Plato’s concepts assume the existence of a prime mover of the universe.
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Offline Killer Clouds

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2021, 12:15:29 AM »
@Killer Clouds

FYI

I know you are new here...One of the few rules we have here is we don't insult other members.
It wasn't an insult. It was a statement of facts.

Offline Killer Clouds

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2021, 12:17:19 AM »
@Killer Clouds
@roamer_1

Killer, watch your language, especially with roamer; he is the buddy of most here, you are not.
Facts are facts and the truth isn't always pretty.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2021, 01:43:44 AM »
I can't deny that you are an honest man. Hyperbolic...but honest. Curmudgeony. Grouchy. Scroogy. But honest =)

Read the article if you haven't...it makes clear that Trump is not the source of the MAGA movement, he is a byproduct. An important one, but like many others (Desantis, Noem, Paul, Cotton, Hawley, etcetera) he is riding the wave of populist conservatism....a term that simply means conservatism reaching out to motivate the middle class to engage in the political process. Not sure why you'd think that counter to conservatism...populism is a method that builds enthusiasm for a cause by speaking truth (with a bit of charisma if possible) to folks. It is not itself a philosophy. In this case, it is a method used to build support and enthusiasm for conservatism. There's just no way that should be seen as a bad thing. You seem to be applying anachronistic view of populism as a "befuddle the dumb masses with snake oil" sort of magic trick....that is not what we are seeing here with the MAGA movement.

@Mesaclone

VERY well stated!

Thank you!
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline christian

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2021, 02:00:29 AM »
As scripture says; you cannot serve two masters.  The President is the master of the nation for four years.  Those that say they hate Trump, and defer to Biden helped give Biden the Presidency, and yet swear they did no such thing.  Truth?  A long ways from those that deny their own handiwork, and words.
This is a time for deceivers that are quite persuasive, don't forget that, many have!  I used to go round and round with such on the Coulter site, no longer exists though.  Do not walk with such, else you fall in the ditch with them.
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Online DB

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2021, 02:23:47 AM »
Facts are facts and the truth isn't always pretty.

The truth? Really? You called someone a liar that isn't. That makes you what?

Populism is just a different fickle mob that chases its own priorities. Populism has no foundation to build anything that actually stands for any meaningful amount of time. It is constantly shifting sand. Our constitution was based on fundamental unchanging principles - populism is an anathema to it.

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2021, 02:28:39 AM »
As scripture says; you cannot serve two masters.  The President is the master of the nation for four years.  Those that say they hate Trump, and defer to Biden helped give Biden the Presidency, and yet swear they did no such thing.  Truth?  A long ways from those that deny their own handiwork, and words.
This is a time for deceivers that are quite persuasive, don't forget that, many have!  I used to go round and round with such on the Coulter site, no longer exists though.  Do not walk with such, else you fall in the ditch with them.
 :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

Yeah, bullcrap. The same old sh*t sandwich vs, turd burger argument. Old and tired. And false. When that is the choice, I will always wander down the street for a nice deli and leave y'all to pick each other's teeth.

No one has 'deferred' to Biteme just because they refuse to endorse your prince. Such thinking is exactly what keeps the Rinos in power.

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2021, 02:31:49 AM »
Facts are facts and the truth isn't always pretty.

You are not speaking truth. You are throwing sh*t. Though I don't find it surprising that you don't know the difference.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2021, 03:57:48 AM »
The truth? Really? You called someone a liar that isn't. That makes you what?

Populism is just a different fickle mob that chases its own priorities. Populism has no foundation to build anything that actually stands for any meaningful amount of time. It is constantly shifting sand. Our constitution was based on fundamental unchanging principles - populism is an anathema to it.

@DB

Truer words were never written. The problem is the population has been dumbed down and taught to think "Bleep YOU,ME first!" in all things,and the Constitution is based on  the concept that people care about something other than themselves and united to stand for right against wrong in a manner that serves the interests of the nation as well as self.

Being a nation of people dedicated to justice and fair play as well as self-sacrifice in order to protect and support the rights of others as the rights of self is and has been out of fashion for a while now. Selfish self-interest rules the day these days with too many.

We can all take note of this and decrying it is easy. Coming up with an answer to these problems is what is hard.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Victoria33

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2021, 09:24:17 AM »
@DB
Truer words were never written. The problem is the population has been dumbed down and taught to think "Bleep YOU,ME first!" in all things,and the Constitution is based on  the concept that people care about something other than themselves and united to stand for right against wrong in a manner that serves the interests of the nation as well as self.

Being a nation of people dedicated to justice and fair play as well as self-sacrifice in order to protect and support the rights of others as the rights of self is and has been out of fashion for a while now. Selfish self-interest rules the day these days with too many.
We can all take note of this and decrying it is easy. Coming up with an answer to these problems is what is hard.
@sneakypete

Good post, thank you sneaky.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2021, 09:24:26 AM »
@DB

Truer words were never written. The problem is the population has been dumbed down and taught to think "Bleep YOU,ME first!" in all things,and the Constitution is based on  the concept that people care about something other than themselves and united to stand for right against wrong in a manner that serves the interests of the nation as well as self.

Being a nation of people dedicated to justice and fair play as well as self-sacrifice in order to protect and support the rights of others as the rights of self is and has been out of fashion for a while now. Selfish self-interest rules the day these days with too many.

We can all take note of this and decrying it is easy. Coming up with an answer to these problems is what is hard.

Actually, it was the populism of men like Sam Adams that led us into and through the Revolution. Populism...like intellectualism...is not inherently good or bad, it is simply the mounting of enthusiasm to advance a cause. If that enthusiasm is directed to elevate a wise and considered course of policy. I would argue that Reagan was a populist, he inspired tremendous enthusiasm in the GOP base and directed it towards the achievement of wise policy. Populism, motivating the populace to fight for "the constitution's fundamental undying principles", is no vice. The Founding Father's...and Reagan....used populism in this way, as has Trump.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 09:25:47 AM by Mesaclone »
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Online skeeter

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2021, 09:35:46 AM »
@DB

Truer words were never written. The problem is the population has been dumbed down and taught to think "Bleep YOU,ME first!" in all things,and the Constitution is based on  the concept that people care about something other than themselves and united to stand for right against wrong in a manner that serves the interests of the nation as well as self.

Being a nation of people dedicated to justice and fair play as well as self-sacrifice in order to protect and support the rights of others as the rights of self is and has been out of fashion for a while now. Selfish self-interest rules the day these days with too many.

We can all take note of this and decrying it is easy. Coming up with an answer to these problems is what is hard.
:thumbsup:

Online skeeter

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2021, 09:40:58 AM »
Actually, it was the populism of men like Sam Adams that led us into and through the Revolution. Populism...like intellectualism...is not inherently good or bad, it is simply the mounting of enthusiasm to advance a cause.
Indeed. In fact learning about what happened in the early stages of the independence movement in New England is a little disconcerting to those like myself who's early understanding was limited to Johnny Tremain. Its populism was not pretty but necessary to move the process of seeking independence along.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 09:42:07 AM by skeeter »

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2021, 09:41:14 AM »
Actually, it was the populism of men like Sam Adams that led us into and through the Revolution. Populism...like intellectualism...is not inherently good or bad, it is simply the mounting of enthusiasm to advance a cause. If that enthusiasm is directed to elevate a wise and considered course of policy. I would argue that Reagan was a populist, he inspired tremendous enthusiasm in the GOP base and directed it towards the achievement of wise policy. Populism, motivating the populace to fight for "the constitution's fundamental undying principles", is no vice. The Founding Father's...and Reagan....used populism in this way, as has Trump.

The tail wagging the dog. 'Mounting enthusiasm to advance a cause' is exactly bass ackwards... And leads to situations like we have now... A popularity for an empty cause driven entirely by the flatulence of populism itself. It has no success and requires none. There are no goals but those found upon bumper-stickers and meaningless catch phrases. Be careful what you wish for, because such a thing will turn and bite its master just as easy as anything else.

And Reagan's popular appeal was incidental. He was fully vetted and proven as governor of California. And he performed accordingly.

Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2021, 09:47:25 AM »
@DB

Truer words were never written. The problem is the population has been dumbed down and taught to think "Bleep YOU,ME first!" in all things,and the Constitution is based on  the concept that people care about something other than themselves and united to stand for right against wrong in a manner that serves the interests of the nation as well as self.

Being a nation of people dedicated to justice and fair play as well as self-sacrifice in order to protect and support the rights of others as the rights of self is and has been out of fashion for a while now. Selfish self-interest rules the day these days with too many.

We can all take note of this and decrying it is easy. Coming up with an answer to these problems is what is hard.

Excellent in all points except the last. The answer to these problems is Conservatism in full measure. Return us to those expectations and the necessary repentance will surely follow.

Showing the way will never be found in those who compromise and provide for half measures... Because there is no clarion call in that. no distinction to be made. No line drawn where the borders of reality exist. No bright light to show the way.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2021, 10:40:05 AM »
It wasn't an insult. It was a statement of facts.

Enjoy your 3-day vacay, bro.
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I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline christian

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2021, 11:09:34 AM »
Clarity, it was NeverTrumpers that helped get Biden elected,pretending no Republican will be good enough,gives the election to Democrats.  As we have already see happen.  Supposedly Trump was the devil incarnate, but the democrats get a pass, means just how the last election turned out, democrats are guaranteed to win.  So now we have Biden ruling like a corrupt monarch, and as NeverTrumpers insisted and demanded, that is better than Trump in office.  Recognize when you buy into that, YOU also own it as taking part in it, and what you see now YOU own too!  The iniquity god owns you.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2021, 11:23:40 AM »
Clarity, it was NeverTrumpers that helped get Biden elected,pretending no Republican will be good enough,gives the election to Democrats.  As we have already see happen.  Supposedly Trump was the devil incarnate, but the democrats get a pass, means just how the last election turned out, democrats are guaranteed to win.  So now we have Biden ruling like a corrupt monarch, and as NeverTrumpers insisted and demanded, that is better than Trump in office.  Recognize when you buy into that, YOU also own it as taking part in it, and what you see now YOU own too!  The iniquity god owns you.
 :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

Your arguments toward Republican status quo are noted.
The same tired arguments that brought the Republicans a RINO dominance.

If there is no demand for excellence, for adherence to orthodoxy, for adherence to absolute lines drawn hard upon the ground, there will be no reform. Just another hyphenated 'conservatism' that does nothing.

Offline corbe

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2021, 11:24:02 AM »
   With all due respect @christian The Election was rigged when 6 States shut down counting in the middle of the night to figure out how many votes they needed to manufacture. I find it highly improbable that 6M+ Conservatives sat home on their azz and didn't vote for Trump, the results would have been the same no matter what these 'Nevers' would have done.  IMHO 

   The boogeyman called, I told him I wasn't at home.
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: David Marcus defines the New Right conservative movement
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2021, 11:32:15 AM »
The tail wagging the dog. 'Mounting enthusiasm to advance a cause' is exactly bass ackwards... And leads to situations like we have now... A popularity for an empty cause driven entirely by the flatulence of populism itself. It has no success and requires none. There are no goals but those found upon bumper-stickers and meaningless catch phrases. Be careful what you wish for, because such a thing will turn and bite its master just as easy as anything else.

And Reagan's popular appeal was incidental. He was fully vetted and proven as governor of California. And he performed accordingly.

Make America Great Again is not an "empty" cause, which renders your point a bit moot. And now who's splitting hairs...Reagan's popular appeal was "incidentaL". Perhaps...and yet was instrumental to his achieving conservative goals. One could and should argue that Trump's popular appeal is likewise "incidental" and that its the "achieving of conservative goals...aka MAGA" that is at point. Securing the border...which was as secure as its ever been by 2020...is not a bumper sticker. Putting the interests of American businesses...corporate tax rate cuts and massive deregulation...is not a bumper sticker. Attaining energy independence...which we did...was not a bumper sticker. Looking forward...putting an end to atrocities like Critical Race Theory...is not a bumper sticker. Ensuring freedom of speech and an end to online partisan censorship...as Desantis is attempting in Florida and which Trump is the leading advocate...is not a bumper sticker.

I respect your opinion a great deal, roamer...which is why I continually try to argue the President's case and persuade you to at least a tolerance of president Trump. I realize its an uphill...perhaps hopeless struggle...but the conservative movement can't succeed if we are fragmented and at war with each other. And here's a truth you may find uncomfortable...in terms of policy...there's not an inch of space between Desantis, Hawley, Cotton...and President Trump. Despite that, this silly NT movement continues to ensure the Right remains fragmented and at war with itself. That makes...not just you...but all of us...useful idiots of the Left.

So my efforts to persuade you will continue against all odds...because you are needed in this fight. I believe in the same principles that you do...in fact I admire your tight hold on principle...but we cannot so narrowly define conservatism as to ensure we lose every political struggle. We cannot support only the "perfect" candidates, or we will have a handful of the perfect vs a mob of Leftists as our end result. Populism is about appeal...it reaches out and offers a vision of conservatism to those who otherwise would remain "in the cave, fearing the light"...populism is not in any way a counter to conservative thought, it is simply the promotion of that thought to a wider audience of voters.

Do you understand what conservative policies we can put in place when we lose elections?

And to be clear. No one...sure as hell not myself...is advocating we surrender ANY of our conservative principles. Period. What I'm advocating is quite the opposite...that populism is the means by which we educate the middle class as to what those principles are and why they matter.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 11:36:01 AM by Mesaclone »
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