Author Topic: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts  (Read 11556 times)

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Offline DB

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #175 on: May 14, 2021, 04:29:52 pm »
At one time the plan was to have a universal battery pack that was super easy to exchange. That way a "gas station" would have already charged batteries ready to go. So you pull in, exchange the battery, pay and go on your way. And then your old battery is recharged prepping it for another exchange at that station. No car owner owns a specific battery. All the batteries are part of pool across the country. Lots of issues... But that was the idea at one time...

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #176 on: May 14, 2021, 04:43:10 pm »
Sure.

And I suppose that a trailer could tow a generator big enough to power the car - or come close - But that generator would need a fuel source onboard (and frequent replenishment), defeating the purpose of an electric car.

As to the trailer battery,
CERTAINLY, according to the size of the batt in the vid upthread, Multiple instances of that could be towed along on a trailer behind, resulting in a remarkably extended distance.

Of course there is an economic aspect as well.  Those auxiliary batteries have got to be really expensive, as the discussion of my own battery situation somewhere upthread demonstrated.  Thousands, perhaps 10's of thousands of Biden Dollars.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #177 on: May 14, 2021, 04:46:45 pm »
At one time the plan was to have a universal battery pack that was super easy to exchange. That way a "gas station" would have already charged batteries ready to go. So you pull in, exchange the battery, pay and go on your way. And then your old battery is recharged prepping it for another exchange at that station. No car owner owns a specific battery. All the batteries are part of pool across the country. Lots of issues... But that was the idea at one time...

It's a plan with merit, the only problem being the number of batteries in the pool would necessarily be much larger than the number of cars.  Because they're made of rare earth minerals like Lithium the demand would likely be too high to be practical.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Online Elderberry

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #178 on: May 14, 2021, 04:55:24 pm »
It's a plan with merit, the only problem being the number of batteries in the pool would necessarily be much larger than the number of cars.  Because they're made of rare earth minerals like Lithium the demand would likely be too high to be practical.

I know you were thinking of the demand by the car owners.

I think a larger demand would be from the thieves.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #179 on: May 14, 2021, 05:02:58 pm »
Of course there is an economic aspect as well.  Those auxiliary batteries have got to be really expensive, as the discussion of my own battery situation somewhere upthread demonstrated.  Thousands, perhaps 10's of thousands of Biden Dollars.

Probably less than you think at the production level - And nothing says the form-factor need remain the same.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #180 on: May 14, 2021, 05:04:22 pm »
I know you were thinking of the demand by the car owners.

I think a larger demand would be from the thieves.

Just as it is with catalytic converters that have a lot of Platinum in them.  And that's why they are so expensive to replace if you ruin them with leaded gasoline.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #181 on: May 14, 2021, 05:08:18 pm »
Probably less than you think at the production level - And nothing says the form-factor need remain the same.

True, but the cost of the materials to manufacture the batteries remains very high.  We're still talking thousands of dollars at best, a cost that's difficult for the average motorist to carry.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #182 on: May 14, 2021, 05:12:58 pm »
Just as it is with catalytic converters that have a lot of Platinum in them.  And that's why they are so expensive to replace if you ruin them with leaded gasoline.

Yeah. Probably best to cut them off.  happy77

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #183 on: May 14, 2021, 05:15:10 pm »
True, but the cost of the materials to manufacture the batteries remains very high.  We're still talking thousands of dollars at best, a cost that's difficult for the average motorist to carry.

I would not think of the average car owner to buy them. I see that being in the realm of fleet managers - Go down to U-Haul and rent your 'brick on wheels' if you are planning a journey.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 05:16:19 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline thackney

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #184 on: May 14, 2021, 05:21:01 pm »
I will leave @sneakypete to speak for himself.

I reject the idea that a towed platform can generate anywhere near the power of the vehicle towing. There has to be a diminished return... And normally that is large.

My point is  that used within a reasonable parameter, the idea is sound. Certainly a drag that is but a pittance (a horse or two) is within the realm of 'doable' and acceptable (loss).

I do not mean to propose anything more.

@roamer_1

I started this sidetrack discussion with the idea of a generator trailer that ran on fuel, for the very occasional use.  No point for folks like you and I, but for those that lifestyle let them choose an all electric car as their only vehicle.

That person would be able to go rent the generator trailer for their once a year vacation trip allowing them to drive their short range vehicle a much longer range.  It would take fuel.  It would not be efficient.  Cars would have to be designed differently to allow this continuous hook up and charger.

Reality is, more likely to just go rent a ICE car.

We got further sidetracked from there.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #185 on: May 14, 2021, 05:30:44 pm »

We got further sidetracked from there.

Which always happens when Topics go longer than 50-75 Replies.   :shrug:

For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #186 on: May 14, 2021, 05:32:11 pm »
Yeah. Probably best to cut them off.  happy77

I can get away with that, now that I live in a County not under the burden of vehicle smog controls.   :tongue2:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #187 on: May 14, 2021, 05:42:06 pm »
@roamer_1

I started this sidetrack discussion with the idea of a generator trailer that ran on fuel, for the very occasional use.  No point for folks like you and I, but for those that lifestyle let them choose an all electric car as their only vehicle.

That person would be able to go rent the generator trailer for their once a year vacation trip allowing them to drive their short range vehicle a much longer range.  It would take fuel.  It would not be efficient.  Cars would have to be designed differently to allow this continuous hook up and charger.

Reality is, more likely to just go rent a ICE car.

We got further sidetracked from there.

Yeah I know. Funny how it goes. But it is a fun topic. And a bit attractive to me in a smaller way - Not only because of the solar stuff I am knee deep in right now (electricity is not my main gig), but also because of a conversion I am doing to a Schwinn Meridian - A three wheel trike... I am putting a front hub electric motor on it and a 1500w battery. So I am catching the rudmentaries of this very thing right now, in a much smaller way.

I am digging this electric bike thing. I could be getting between a 10 and 15 mile range on something that needs no license, goes somewhere around 20 mph, and I will be in it under a grand.

I can see me making one for myself if this project goes OK. Just for popping into town. Of course, I will have to throw that basket on the back away, and cut down a garden trailer bed to mount back there, with custom fenders built onto that... but it is a neat thing. Fun to mess with.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #188 on: May 14, 2021, 05:43:48 pm »
I can get away with that, now that I live in a County not under the burden of vehicle smog controls.   :tongue2:

#metoo  :tongue2:

 :silly: :cool:

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #189 on: May 14, 2021, 05:44:58 pm »
Yeah I know. Funny how it goes. But it is a fun topic. And a bit attractive to me in a smaller way - Not only because of the solar stuff I am knee deep in right now (electricity is not my main gig), but also because of a conversion I am doing to a Schwinn Meridian - A three wheel trike... I am putting a front hub electric motor on it and a 1500w battery. So I am catching the rudmentaries of this very thing right now, in a much smaller way.

I am digging this electric bike thing. I could be getting between a 10 and 15 mile range on something that needs no license, goes somewhere around 20 mph, and I will be in it under a grand.

I can see me making one for myself if this project goes OK. Just for popping into town. Of course, I will have to throw that basket on the back away, and cut down a garden trailer bed to mount back there, with custom fenders built onto that... but it is a neat thing. Fun to mess with.

You must really be a country boy....no mention of chrome bumpers. rrthree
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #190 on: May 14, 2021, 05:50:17 pm »
You must really be a country boy....no mention of chrome bumpers. rrthree

yeah. Satin black and 250lbs... The black is easier to touch up after boonie bashing, and doesn't show the blood as much when you paste a furry woodland creature all over the front of it.

My favorite color is camo. Then satin black. Then maybe chrome.  happy77

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #191 on: May 14, 2021, 06:17:02 pm »
yeah. Satin black and 250lbs... The black is easier to touch up after boonie bashing, and doesn't show the blood as much when you paste a furry woodland creature all over the front of it.

My favorite color is camo. Then satin black. Then maybe chrome.  happy77

I'd paint it camo with big red splotches all over the front.  As a bonus, it makes a good ride for driving through OBLM protests. happy77
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #192 on: May 14, 2021, 06:19:16 pm »
I'd paint it camo with big red splotches all over the front.  As a bonus, it makes a good ride for driving through OBLM protests. happy77

LOL! That's right. I dunno about the BLM thing. They showed up here for a few hours and went on home. Seems we ain't the polite hospitable sort.   :shrug: :whistle:

Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #193 on: May 14, 2021, 07:10:05 pm »
@HoustonSam

Absolutely correct Sam, the engineer understands but struggles to communicate with others.

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Offline Joe Wooten

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #194 on: May 14, 2021, 07:15:30 pm »
Which always happens when Topics go longer than 50-75 Replies.   :shrug:



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Online Bigun

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #195 on: May 14, 2021, 08:43:30 pm »
But @sneakypete, if you connect the wheels on that powerless hand cart to a generator and push the cart down the hill, the cart will roll more slowly to the bottom.  Whatever energy you put into the hand cart by pushing it to the top of the hill is the only energy available to do anything while it's rolling back down the hill.  If you divert some of that energy into running a generator then less of the energy will go into the handcart's forward motion.  If the generator is large enough the cart won't roll at all, it will stay still on the slope of the hill.

The bottom line is that you can't create energy, you can only convert it from one form to another; every time you convert it some of it goes astray.  If you want to get energy out of a moving vehicle by powering a generator with the vehicle's turning wheels, you can only get the energy to run the generator from the vehicle's engine, and the generator will create less energy than the engine puts into it.  In your example case that engine is gravity.

A lot of folks have tried to beat this one for a long time, but it's like Supply and Demand in economics or gravity.  It is what it is, and we can't beat it.

And many folks have a hard time grasping that FACT but it is true never-the-less. 

That is the very reason that NO electric water heater, furnace, or stove can ever be as energy efficient as the gas version of the same appliance.
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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #196 on: May 14, 2021, 08:44:37 pm »
Needs a scoop of good vanilla ice cream!!

Or a generous slice of sharp cheddar cheese!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #197 on: May 14, 2021, 10:08:12 pm »
Cyber wrote:
"I took a test drive with an EV1 (back before they cancelled all the leases and crushed the cars), and they had a feature that used a generator from the wheels when you took your foot off the "gas" pedal as you approached a traffic signal.  It slowed the car down without using the brakes, and pushed more charge into the battery.  It was to help extend the range.  I assume modern electrics have this feature."

The Prius has this feature. It can use the car's motors to "re-generate" power during braking and recharge the batteries.

"Regenerative" or "dynamic" braking has been a feature of railroad locomotives since the early years of the 20th century.

By switching the traction motors into generators, electric locomotives could "put power back into the wire" on downgrades through regeneration.

Diesel engines used dynamic braking, in which the motors also acted "as generators", but the generated power (no wire overhead) was "burned off" by way of resistance grids.

The dynamic could hold back the weight of a freight train on a downgrade, sometimes without even having to use the train air brakes at all.

With passenger trains, there's something called "blended brake" where dynamic and air is used together to slow the train rapidly. This is done automatically, the engineer doesn't have to control them separately.

Offline Idiot

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #198 on: May 15, 2021, 01:49:08 am »
@roamer_1

I started this sidetrack discussion with the idea of a generator trailer that ran on fuel, for the very occasional use.  No point for folks like you and I, but for those that lifestyle let them choose an all electric car as their only vehicle.

That person would be able to go rent the generator trailer for their once a year vacation trip allowing them to drive their short range vehicle a much longer range.  It would take fuel.  It would not be efficient.  Cars would have to be designed differently to allow this continuous hook up and charger.

Reality is, more likely to just go rent a ICE car.

We got further sidetracked from there.
Anytime you deal with an engineer...this is what happens...lolol...KIDDING!  I dealt with a reservoir engineer earlier in the week this is about what happened...lol.

Offline thackney

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Re: Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027, study predicts
« Reply #199 on: May 15, 2021, 02:07:41 am »
Anytime you deal with an engineer...this is what happens...lolol...KIDDING!  I dealt with a reservoir engineer earlier in the week this is about what happened...lol.

In every significant project, there comes a time when you need to shoot the engineer and finish the work.

I tell my project team I am on the job to give everyone else someone to blame.
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