2 police officers threatened and assaulted Army officer during an illegal stop, lawsuit claims: Vide

[sneakypete]

Once the driver refused to comply with the officers commands...he was guilty of obstruction.  From that point on he determined how that entire stoop went.

@txradioguy

So,if the cop had told him to strip naked to insure he wasn't concealing a weapon,and to stand on his head to prevent him from attacking anyone,that would be peachy-keen with you?

It seems you are either a cop,or have been a cop in the past. Everyone else understands cops aren't our masters,and have no authority to treat us like criminals unless they caught us committing a crime.

Yeah,it is technically a "crime" to drive a vehicle that doesn't have a license tag displayed.

So is rape,murder,arson,etc,etc,etc. Are all these offenses equal in your opinion,or do the "perps" deserve to be treated different if they are only SUSPECTED of committing a traffic offense and refused to be dominated by an out of control power freak with a badge?

The choice that 2LT made determined how that stop was going to go.

No,the choice Officer Asshat made to act like a bully control freak of one of the most minor "offenses" in the book,one that was a wrong assumption on top of that,is what excalated the incident.

ALL he had to do was ask the driver why he didn't wasn't displaying a license tag,which would have resulted in something like "Huh? I have a tag. It's on the back window.",and they would have then disovered a tag that had came loose and fell from the glass.

Big freaking deal. End of drama,a trip to the local conveninece store for some scotch tape,and the problem would have been fixed and both gone home with smiles on their faces.

Did Officer asshat do that? Nope! He started treating it like a felony arrest stop on a known violent felon.

Or do you not believe in personal responsibility for your own actions anymore?

Do you believe cops should be held responsible for their actions?

If my kids or even myself had acted like that 2LT had...I'd have no room to complain about what happened next.  Because the conscious decisions I would have made to ignore the officers commands would have led to the end result.

 You are going to have to excuse me on that one. I have a VERY hard time believing it,given the evidence on display,and the fact that even the cops Chief thought he was out of line far enough to be fired.

After all,who knows more about the mindset and the attitude of Officer Authora-Tay,his Chief,or you?
 

[sneakypete]

Couldn't see the tag...refused to stop when first lit up.

Can't blame them one bit for having guns drawn at first till they knew what they were dealing with.  Especially with what's been happening lately. Two cops run over in DC and one shot in the head on a routine traffic stop in rural NM.

@txradioguy

Out of how many tens of thousands of stops made by cops every day that lead to nothing more than a ticket issued for a minor violation?

[txradioguy]

I got here without a cigarette lighter @txradioguy

 

The most abused Mod vehicle in the TBR Motor Pool. 

[txradioguy]

@txradioguy

Out of how many tens of thousands of stops made by cops every day that lead to nothing more than a ticket issued for a minor violation?

@sneakypete you just made my point for me.

The percentages catch up with everyone at some point. 

No matter how many normal interactions a cop has with the public...at some point there will be an incident that goes sideways.

Just like no matter how many lifeguards you have at a beach...at some point the law of averages will catch up and someone will drown.

[verga]

@sneakypete you just made my point for me.

The percentages catch up with everyone at some point. 

No matter how many normal interactions a cop has with the public...at some point there will be an incident that goes sideways.

Just like no matter how many lifeguards you have at a beach...at some point the law of averages will catch up and someone will drown.

Between the cops my uncle worked with up north and the various ones I have worked with as School resource officers almost everyone has had an incident that went "Sideways". My uncle ended up permanently disabled due to his.

[sneakypete]

Still contradicting yourself  "Those orders were lawful and routine for a traffic stop." in your previous post. The Lt was being DETAINED,

@verga

Really? WHEN did the cop tell him that he was under arrest,and what the charges were? I somehow seemed to miss that.

Tinted windows (So they can't see into the vehicle,)

"Tinted windows"?

The HORRORS!

Maybe you should take that up with the auto manufacterer,not the customer that bought their produce. Send Officer Cartman to Detroit to arrest the Chairman of the Board for whatever corporation made the SUV.

They can't see how many people are in the vehicle or if they are armed.

Maybe that officer should have put on his "Big Girl Panties" before starting his shift?

Or maybe,if he is THAT afraid of doing his job,he should be looking for another one.

Which,he is in fact doing right now. Unfortunately,it will probably be another job in LE,even though he has proved beyond a doubt to not be able to handle.

And don't say that doesn't happen.I know for a fact it does,and chances are,so do you. I was helping a friend run his rifle range once while people were qualifying to buy a arsonnel rebuilt Garand from the NRA,and there were a bunch of cops there that I,and the range owner knew. They were all making fun of this one idiot that seemed to be having trouble doing stuff like keeping his muzzle downrange,and told us that this guy had already been fired from at least three LE agencies,and was out putting in applications in new cities.

It happens all the time. Sure,he is destined to screw up again,get fired for abuse of power again,and once again cause some city to face a lawsuit,but by then the damage will have been done.

I also attended the graduation ceremony for new cops in a medium-sized city because a woman friend of mine had just graduated and invited me. I was stunned to hear the judge holding the ceremony tell the new cops outright to "not worry about violating the rights of a criminal because if the case went before him,they were "golden".

It was all I could do to sit still and not jump up screaming "fascist bastard!",but I didn't want to cause my friend any trouble.



No visible license plate, so they don't know if the vehicle is stolen.

The flip side of that is they didn't have even the tiniest bit of evidence to suspect it WAS stolen.

And don't try to use that "no license on display" lame line of shit to defend the undefendable. Traffic cops probably run into that problem a couple of times a week,every week. Anybody who has ever had one of those paper temporary "license tags" glued to their back window know the glue sucks,and in a day or two the wind will be blowing it off.

Blame the state for not issuing the cardboard tags that bolt to the bumper for this,not the consumer.

He continued to leave the car running after being told 5-6 times to turn it off. Instead he used that time to set up his cell phone to record the incident. He did not have BOTH  hands out the window until being told over 10 times (He only had his left arm out. and He had a FIREARM within reach of his right hand. If I am in that situation your DAMN right I am approaching with my sidearm out.

Excuses,excuses,excuses.
 

[sneakypete]

You have the right to continue to a safe well lit area even after being lit up. And I'm not going to reach down to unhook my seatbelt with two cops shouting and pointing their guns at me. The cops escalated the situation unnecessarily.

@skeeter

Same here. When I get stopped,I roll down my window before the cop gets out of his patrol car,and then sit still with both hands wrapped around the top of the steering wheel.

When the cop asks for my drivers license and registration,I ask for permission to disconnect my shoulder harness so I can reach for it.

The only times I have ever had trouble with cops at a traffic stop were the two times I didn't stop in the road,but drove to the next public driveway and pulled off into the parking lot to cut my ignition off,roll down the window,and wait for the cop to come to the window. They both seemed to be pissed at me not stopping immediately,and were still pissed when I told them only a fool would stop in a traffic lane because it was unsafe,and they can not require me to do anything unsafe.

BTW,I can't be the only one old enough to remember when cops would thank you for pulling off of the road into somewhere safe before stopping?

When did this "stop on the road with the patrol car blocking traffic" insanity start,and WHY has it been so widely accepted? Anyone know?

[DB]

Where is that a "right" exactly?  They were telling him to take his seat belt off and exit the vehicle.  He refused.

No they didn't.  They escalated the scenario because of the refusal of the driver to comply with lawful orders.

Again...decisions made by the 2LT led to this.  OR have we totally abandoned the concept of taking responsibility for our own actions?

They certainly looked like lawful orders to me and he certainly wasn't cooperating with them. What the hell do people expect to happen when they act like that??? The more he resisted the more force was going to be applied.

[sneakypete]

Where is that a "right" exactly?  They were telling him to take his seat belt off and exit the vehicle.  He refused.

@txradioguy

He was clearly wrong about that one. As for a fear of being beaten by the cops goes,when was the last time anyone remembers cops beating an Army officer in uniform over a traffic violation?

AND....,he was already stopped in a shopping center parking lot where there were witnesses if something illegal did happen.

He threw away any chance of winning a lawsuit when he did that.


 

[sneakypete]

What is simple is that the victim was not informed of the probable cause for the stop.   Since it was a simple traffic stop, the cops had no business trying to haul the victim out of the vehicle.


@Sled Dog

True dat! He did himself no favors by refusing,though. You do NOT win roadside arguments with a cop. You cooperate within reason (as long as it doesn't put you in danger),and file a lawsuit or formal complaint later.

Yeah,the asshat cop was wrong,but that doesn't mean you need to get into a "I can outwrong you!" contest with him in a freaking parking lot.

Just because he doesn't have enough common sense to pour urine out of a boot,it doesn't mean you have to top him.

 
What was done was an assault.   Refusing to comply with an unlawful order, to exit the vehicle, is not a crime.   The cops failed to follow procedure.  It's that simple.


 All true,but once again,this is NOT an argument you are going to win in a parking lot. Make your argument in court,where it will count and their will be negative consequences for his actions.

Arguing with a cop during a traffic stop is akin to beating your head against a wall to make it stop hurting.




 

[txradioguy]

Where is that a "right" exactly?  They were telling him to take his seat belt off and exit the vehicle.  He refused.

@txradioguy

He was clearly wrong about that one. As for a fear of being beaten by the cops goes,when was the last time anyone remembers cops beating an Army officer in uniform over a traffic violation?

AND....,he was already stopped in a shopping center parking lot where there were witnesses if something illegal did happen.

He threw away any chance of winning a lawsuit when he did that.

IMHO he didn't have any reasonable "fear" of being beaten.  IF he claims that than it's clear...again...IMHO...that he's sold his soul to the woke brigade.

I agree about the lawsuit.  But I'm guessing he'll win due to skin color.  And because of the whole "different spanks for different ranks" he'll not have a thing done to him by his chain of command in the Virginia National Guard.

[txradioguy]

They certainly looked like lawful orders to me and he certainly wasn't cooperating with them. What the hell do people expect to happen when they act like that??? The more he resisted the more force was going to be applied.

@DB agree completely.

[sneakypete]

The cliff notes version is that the Fourth Amendment sets limits on what the police can do.

These clowns exceeded that.

When they violated his Fourth Amendment protections, they violated YOUR Fourth Amendment protections.

You should try to care more about these cases and recognize them for the threats they are.   Don't automatically side with the cops on these issues, make the effort to understand what happened.

What happened here is that the cops got excited and over-reacted.

 
@Sled Dog

All true,but once again,the place to make these arguments is in open court,in front of a judge.

Name the last time ANYONE won an arguement with a cop based on Constitutional law
in a parking lot.

The place to do this is in court,where you can get the charges kicked,and might even win some money in a law suit.

Name the last time anyone won a parking lot argument with a cop,and ended up with a bag of cash,in addition to getting the bad cop fired, to boot.

[skeeter]

@skeeter

Same here. When I get stopped,I roll down my window before the cop gets out of his patrol car,and then sit still with both hands wrapped around the top of the steering wheel.

When the cop asks for my drivers license and registration,I ask for permission to disconnect my shoulder harness so I can reach for it.

The only times I have ever had trouble with cops at a traffic stop were the two times I didn't stop in the road,but drove to the next public driveway and pulled off into the parking lot to cut my ignition off,roll down the window,and wait for the cop to come to the window. They both seemed to be pissed at me not stopping immediately,and were still pissed when I told them only a fool would stop in a traffic lane because it was unsafe,and they can not require me to do anything unsafe.

BTW,I can't be the only one old enough to remember when cops would thank you for pulling off of the road into somewhere safe before stopping?

When did this "stop on the road with the patrol car blocking traffic" insanity start,and WHY has it been so widely accepted? Anyone know?

Not saying the Lt couldn't have handled the situation better, but I expect our police to be a little more psychologically savvy.

Surely they could've tried something more subtle than 'I'll blow you away, get out the car', especially after they had determined the guy was no threat.

[sneakypete]

All they had to do was explain that they wanted to check license and registration and insurance because they didn't see the temporary tags.   

Things would have gone good for everyone, then.

 

@Sled Dog

Seems like such a simple thing to do,doesn't it?

[Sled Dog]

I provided FACTS, I can see where an anti cop hater such as yourself would not find those useful. I asked you to tell me the EXACt location of the plates and the exact numbers and letters on them. Still waiting. I explained that being detained meant he was required to comply with requests from the officers. I explained and the (His own) video showed his failure to put his hands out. He was also in possession of a firearm with in reach of his right hand. So in fact it is you that have provided nothing useful. welcome to my ignore list loser.

So did I.

The fact of the matter is that the cops immediately whipped out their guns for no valid reason whatsoever.

The cops did not know he had a firearm available when the stop was made, so their immediate resort to weapons was unnecessary.

They were just chicken-poop cops.

[Sled Dog]

@Sled Dog

Seems like such a simple thing to do,doesn't it?

Yeah, I'm not seeing why the cop exited his patrol car and immediately pulled his weapon.

People can get shot when amateurs act like that.

[Sled Dog]

@Sled Dog

All true,but once again,the place to make these arguments is in open court,in front of a judge.

Name the last time ANYONE won an arguement with a cop based on Constitutional law
in a parking lot.

The place to do this is in court,where you can get the charges kicked,and might even win some money in a law suit.

Name the last time anyone won a parking lot argument with a cop,and ended up with a bag of cash,in addition to getting the bad cop fired, to boot.

I've seen a few videos where the victim stands on his rights to know probable cause in which the cop gives up and leaves.

It's not impossible, especially when the encounter is being recorded by the victim and the assailant knows it.

[Sled Dog]

What is simple is that the victim was not informed of the probable cause for the stop.   Since it was a simple traffic stop, the cops had no business trying to haul the victim out of the vehicle.


@Sled Dog

True dat! He did himself no favors by refusing,though. You do NOT win roadside arguments with a cop. You cooperate within reason (as long as it doesn't put you in danger),and file a lawsuit or formal complaint later.

Yeah,the asshat cop was wrong,but that doesn't mean you need to get into a "I can outwrong you!" contest with him in a freaking parking lot.

Just because he doesn't have enough common sense to pour urine out of a boot,it doesn't mean you have to top him.

 
What was done was an assault.   Refusing to comply with an unlawful order, to exit the vehicle, is not a crime.   The cops failed to follow procedure.  It's that simple.


 All true,but once again,this is NOT an argument you are going to win in a parking lot. Make your argument in court,where it will count and their will be negative consequences for his actions.

Arguing with a cop during a traffic stop is akin to beating your head against a wall to make it stop hurting.

The victim has the right to refuse to comply with unlawful orders.

Threatening him with death if he refuses to exit the vehicle, with absolutely no justification behind the threat, is certainly an unlawful act.

I notice the victim won the battle, the attacker lost his job.   Too bad he won't be charged with felony assault with a deadly weapon, as would happen to any non-cop pointing a gun at someone without cause.

[sneakypete]

I've seen a few videos where the victim stands on his rights to know probable cause in which the cop gives up and leaves.

It's not impossible, especially when the encounter is being recorded by the victim and the assailant knows it.

@Sled Dog

All true,but that doesn't do a single damn thing to stop that sort of police conduct. The ONLY way to stop it is to take the SOB to court and win a lawsuit against him/her and the agency that employs them.

It ain't real to the county or city managers until it starts to cost them money and negative publicity.

[sneakypete]

I notice the victim won the battle, the attacker lost his job.   Too bad he won't be charged with felony assault with a deadly weapon, as would happen to any non-cop pointing a gun at someone without cause.

@Sled Dog

All of which MAY have happened if the Lt had kept his cool,let the fool continue to step on his penis,and then filed a law suit.

That is the ONLY way this sort of thing will stop happening.

[verga]

Still contradicting yourself  "Those orders were lawful and routine for a traffic stop." in your previous post. The Lt was being DETAINED,

@verga

Really? WHEN did the cop tell him that he was under arrest,and what the charges were? I somehow seemed to miss that.

Tinted windows (So they can't see into the vehicle,)

"Tinted windows"?

The HORRORS!

Maybe you should take that up with the auto manufacterer,not the customer that bought their produce. Send Officer Cartman to Detroit to arrest the Chairman of the Board for whatever corporation made the SUV.

They can't see how many people are in the vehicle or if they are armed.

Maybe that officer should have put on his "Big Girl Panties" before starting his shift?

Or maybe,if he is THAT afraid of doing his job,he should be looking for another one.

Which,he is in fact doing right now. Unfortunately,it will probably be another job in LE,even though he has proved beyond a doubt to not be able to handle.

And don't say that doesn't happen.I know for a fact it does,and chances are,so do you. I was helping a friend run his rifle range once while people were qualifying to buy a arsonnel rebuilt Garand from the NRA,and there were a bunch of cops there that I,and the range owner knew. They were all making fun of this one idiot that seemed to be having trouble doing stuff like keeping his muzzle downrange,and told us that this guy had already been fired from at least three LE agencies,and was out putting in applications in new cities.

It happens all the time. Sure,he is destined to screw up again,get fired for abuse of power again,and once again cause some city to face a lawsuit,but by then the damage will have been done.

I also attended the graduation ceremony for new cops in a medium-sized city because a woman friend of mine had just graduated and invited me. I was stunned to hear the judge holding the ceremony tell the new cops outright to "not worry about violating the rights of a criminal because if the case went before him,they were "golden".

It was all I could do to sit still and not jump up screaming "fascist bastard!",but I didn't want to cause my friend any trouble.



No visible license plate, so they don't know if the vehicle is stolen.

The flip side of that is they didn't have even the tiniest bit of evidence to suspect it WAS stolen.

And don't try to use that "no license on display" lame line of shit to defend the undefendable. Traffic cops probably run into that problem a couple of times a week,every week. Anybody who has ever had one of those paper temporary "license tags" glued to their back window know the glue sucks,and in a day or two the wind will be blowing it off.

Blame the state for not issuing the cardboard tags that bolt to the bumper for this,not the consumer.

He continued to leave the car running after being told 5-6 times to turn it off. Instead he used that time to set up his cell phone to record the incident. He did not have BOTH  hands out the window until being told over 10 times (He only had his left arm out. and He had a FIREARM within reach of his right hand. If I am in that situation your DAMN right I am approaching with my sidearm out.

Excuses,excuses,excuses.

If you watched the video, the officer tells him he is under arrest then tells him that he is being detained.  This is when he has holstered his sidearm and before he is pepper sprayed.  As for everything else, we agree on a good many points, but on this you are dead wrong. The Lt knew what he was doing and was setting himself up to be a martyr.

[Sled Dog]

@sneakypete you just made my point for me.

The percentages catch up with everyone at some point. 

No matter how many normal interactions a cop has with the public...at some point there will be an incident that goes sideways.

Just like no matter how many lifeguards you have at a beach...at some point the law of averages will catch up and someone will drown.

So that means, despite the assurances of the Fourth Amendment, that every cop is perfectly justified in threatening lethal force against every citizen interaction?

I don't think so.

If they can't handle the job, they need to find a new one.    Possibly lap dancing or something similar that's more suitable to their true natures.

[Smokin Joe]

Again...the driver refused to comply with simple commands from the officer.  You would think a commissioned officer in the military...especially a lowly 2LT would understand complying with commands you're being given.

Had he simply done what the officer said the first time he asked...we wouldn't know who this weekend warrior was...nor would we care.

And it's really kinda sad to see people on here who consider themselves Conservative continue disparage the officers and the rule of law.  You're letting your own personal bad experience with law enforcement cloud your common sense and judgement.

Are there bad cops?  Of course...but it's not these two.  And given the ay police are under attack from every corner these days you can' blame them for being tense in this situation...especially given how the driver refused to stop and then refused to comply with the officers.  That right there ramps up the tension.

And IMHO you can't get mad at the cops for enforcing the laws passed by the city/county/state.  They merely enforce them.  Don't like the laws...vote people in that will change the laws...or get elected to a city council yourself and be the change.

And I can tell you for a fact...that had that idiot 2LT behaved in the same manner on ANY military installation...the Military Police officers that pulled him over wouldn't have acted any differently.

If he had done what the officer said, he'd likely be dead.

Consider, the door is locked. Power windows, and to open them the engine or at least ignition has to be on.

By the time the window is down, the police have weapons drawn. Stick your hands out, as they want, and then they want him to open the door. At that point they have him bracketed, weapons drawn, and are obviously agitated.

Had the driver brought his hand back inside the vehicle to unlock the door, it is likely he would have been shot. The driver was complying with the first command to put his hands out the window, and got maced for not bringing his hands back inside to unlock the door (still beats a bullet). Conflicting commands and confronted by officers with weapons drawn.

The officer tried, numerous times, to open the locked door, even reaching into the vehicle for the lock or to attempt to unlatch or unlock it and getting increasingly agitated because the door was locked. Again, the other officer had his weapon drawn, in compliance with seat belt laws, the driver had his seat belt on and the door locked, and could not open the door or get out without removing a hand from view. With the level of agitation on the part of the police, removing a hand from view would likely have resulted in serious injury or death to the driver.

The Lt. repeatedly asked what this was about, and even was told that he would be informed in a moment, but was given no answer during the initial body cam video. Had he been given an answer, dialogue would have been initiated and the situation could have been defused. That opportunity was not presented. Frankly I saw the "This is messed up" comments not as resistance so much as disbelief. If the Lt didn't have a chip on his shoulder before, he will going forward unless he is the sort of man who will attribute the problem to individuals and not the profession they represent.

IMHO, the situation could have been handled better by the officers.

[Smokin Joe]

If you watched the video, the officer tells him he is under arrest then tells him that he is being detained.  This is when he has holstered his sidearm and before he is pepper sprayed.  As for everything else, we agree on a good many points, but on this you are dead wrong. The Lt knew what he was doing and was setting himself up to be a martyr.

"Detained" and not arrested? One just takes less paperwork, but resist being "detained" and you will be arrested on a charge of "resisting"...but not an arrest? Sorry,but bullshit. Either you are free to go or you are not. It's just weasel words. Call it what it is: held without charges.

The Lt. repeatedly asked what the stop was about. Not once did I hear a word of explanation.

So the officer holstered his weapon and maced the Lt. Was that really necessary? The other officer had him under his gun. How many 13/15/17 round mags does it take to put down some guy sitting in the car?