Author Topic: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers  (Read 28604 times)

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Offline skeeter

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #800 on: March 20, 2021, 08:37:58 pm »
That's fine. But the point is to WIN. For Conservatism.

Where is that?
Given your definition of winning, conservatives don’t win till Judgment Day.

Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #801 on: March 20, 2021, 08:45:40 pm »
Given your definition of winning, conservatives don’t win till Judgment Day.

My definition of winning is moving the ball to the right... Winning decisively on an issue, any issue at all.

The point I am making is that this is why the Right never wins. And yeah, never will.

I stand on the Conservative standard.
I DEMAND performance. I seek out others who will perform.
I am not satisfied eternally with less.

Reagan has been stretched  to mean nothing... 'well, be satisfied with 80%' someone opined up above...
I would be bowled over to see 20%... Y'all got NOTHING... AGAIN.

Y'all got to set your sights higher and demand some actual long-lasting wins.
Or yeah. Never till judgement day.
And that's by any standard that actually wins.

Offline Absalom

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #802 on: March 20, 2021, 08:45:46 pm »

Let's see what conservative stances are on a few issues.
Pro Life, Pro 2nd Amendment, Pro fiscal responsibility, anti Big Government, anti book burning, pro free speech, pro States rights, and a bunch of other issues.
Every supporter of each of these stands will claim very loudly if necessary that their select one of these items ties to every other issue. Hence, all positive achievements by a given President can be ignored if he does not meet a subjective interpretation of how he stands on that one thing.
This is why just about every Republican feels justified in trashing every other Republican. 
No wonder everybody's pissed off. Why every crab in a bucket will pull back any one crab
attempting to escape.
---------------------------
Principled Conservatism is a body of enduring precepts governing the attitudes, behaviors,
impulses and sentiments of Man, involving his nature, which is derived from the Natural Law.
It is completely and utterly divorced from economics, politics and religion; each of which it
predates by thousands of years.
These thoughts encapsulate the ideas of Sargon of Akkad, Hammurabi of Babylon,
the Egyptians, Greeks such as Pericles and Plato, Romans such as Aurelius and Cicero,
the Scholastics, the wise of the Renaissance and later the likes of Locke, Hume and Burke.
We moderns, bloated w/pretention and sanctimony, promote the horse manure that
"we are the greatest" which gives us leeway to re-define conservatism to suit our
prejudices and the consequences are predictable; brainless argumentation delivered
at the decibel level of an H-Bomb.
And then the promoters of "modern conservatism" bleat that nobody pays them any mind.
What a shock?????

Offline skeeter

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #803 on: March 20, 2021, 08:49:28 pm »
My definition of winning is moving the ball to the right... Winning decisively on an issue, any issue at all.

The point I am making is that this is why the Right never wins. And yeah, never will.

I stand on the Conservative standard.
I DEMAND performance. I seek out others who will perform.
I am not satisfied eternally with less.

Reagan has been stretched  to mean nothing... 'well, be satisfied with 80%' someone opined up above...
I would be bowled over to see 20%... Y'all got NOTHING... AGAIN.

Y'all got to set your sights higher and demand some actual long-lasting wins.
Or yeah. Never till judgement day.
And that's by any standard that actually wins.
Oh I DEMAND alright. I just refuse to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. And I’ll continue to place blame where it rightfully belongs.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 08:50:23 pm by skeeter »

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #804 on: March 20, 2021, 08:50:34 pm »
Oh you damn betcha.

The survival of conservatism in America hangs by a thread...and you do nothing because the rest of us aren't pure enough.

There's just nothing smart OR principled about such a stand...its simply self serving and short sighted. Holding to principles is not a YOU thing...its an all of us here thing. But this is a political philosophy, not a religious doctrine...we can have differences without considering each other apostates and heretics. Trump was, no doubt, imperfect in his conservatism...he was also unnecessarily abrasive and condescending at times. Reagan too, had his flaws...he often saw the good in his opponents when it wasn't there...for example.

So...yes Trump fell short as most men do...of the perfect conservative standard...but the son of a bitch fought to get everything conservative he could into legislation. And when that couldn't be done, he used Exec orders as much as was feasible. He governed conservatively...plain and simple...and just as conservatively as Reagan.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #805 on: March 20, 2021, 09:02:16 pm »
No, that would be the RINO's and NT's who failed to support him....that's who "handed this country over to America's enemies". It was people like YOU who betrayed us all and lifted up the Left to its current position...we went into battle against these folks and you either ignored the call, to duty, hid from the fight, and/or deserted us in the heat of battle to sustain your own self serving sense of "purity". The gall you have to come here and blame Trump, your fellow conservatives, and the MAGA movement is absolutely astounding. Physician...heal thyself.
Just who do you think was the group who 'settled' for the fraud? It wasn't anyone who loves America. BTW, pull your head out and look around, because the people you are calling "RINOs" are the mainstream GOP, its leaders, and all the folks who have dutifully held their positions as an ineffective minority, replete with excuses for not using power when it was handed to them on a silver platter. They had the power to stop all the current EO horse manure with legislation during the first couple of years of Trump's Administration, they knew full well anything that would benefit the country would have been signed in a New York second, but they sat on their thumbs. Why was that?

They are Swamp critters, same as the Democrats.

So before you upbraid the rest of us for "not supporting" yadda yadda yadda, you'd best better clean those perfidious bastards out of the Party, otherwise, there is no more reason to support it than the Communists across the aisle. Neither one is doing anyone outside their little Beltway empire a damned bit of good, unless, of course the kickbacks are happening.

The Congressional GOP had the power to DEMAND the stolen states be investigated fully, and to DEMAND that charges be pressed or results be cleaned up and they did bugger-all but meekly acquiesce.

It didn't matter how many votes Trump got.

Wrap your skull around that, because they were being shifted over to Biden and compensated for by algorithms in the tabulation machines, and once the 'gap closing' spikes were in place, the rest of the result was guaranteed.

That those obvious and coordinated thefts were accepted is where the real stink rises, and it isn't from Democrats or NTs, or what you call "RINOs", it's from people well within the GOP power structure who got just the result they wanted.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #806 on: March 20, 2021, 09:04:30 pm »
Oh I DEMAND alright. I just refuse to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. And I’ll continue to place blame where it rightfully belongs.

Another meaningless trope.

Never win... Never get anything. STFU and pull the lever... Because Democrats...
That's what it means.

Online Bigun

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #807 on: March 20, 2021, 09:11:13 pm »
You widen your criticism from Trump to include the GOP and then the rat congress to suit your argument. I have nothing good to say about the GOP nor the rat congress yet as president Trump did pretty damn well.

 :yowsa: Despite the headwinds he was fighting every hour of every day. And I never voted for him until this year @skeeter
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #808 on: March 20, 2021, 09:15:15 pm »
Just who do you think was the group who 'settled' for the fraud? It wasn't anyone who loves America. BTW, pull your head out and look around, because the people you are calling "RINOs" are the mainstream GOP, its leaders, and all the folks who have dutifully held their positions as an ineffective minority, replete with excuses for not using power when it was handed to them on a silver platter. They had the power to stop all the current EO horse manure with legislation during the first couple of years of Trump's Administration, they knew full well anything that would benefit the country would have been signed in a New York second, but they sat on their thumbs. Why was that?

They are Swamp critters, same as the Democrats.

So before you upbraid the rest of us for "not supporting" yadda yadda yadda, you'd best better clean those perfidious bastards out of the Party, otherwise, there is no more reason to support it than the Communists across the aisle. Neither one is doing anyone outside their little Beltway empire a damned bit of good, unless, of course the kickbacks are happening.

The Congressional GOP had the power to DEMAND the stolen states be investigated fully, and to DEMAND that charges be pressed or results be cleaned up and they did bugger-all but meekly acquiesce.

It didn't matter how many votes Trump got.

Wrap your skull around that, because they were being shifted over to Biden and compensated for by algorithms in the tabulation machines, and once the 'gap closing' spikes were in place, the rest of the result was guaranteed.

That those obvious and coordinated thefts were accepted is where the real stink rises, and it isn't from Democrats or NTs, or what you call "RINOs", it's from people well within the GOP power structure who got just the result they wanted.

Funny you say all this...as its the MAGA folks that ARE fighting to clean the RINO's out of the party. Primary challenges are already be set up and people like Cheney are under fire from the MAGA movement. The NT's on the other hand are either RINO's themselves...or "take my ball and go to the 3rd party" types who do nothing but weaken the fight to fix the GOP. Yes, its a long and frustrating fight and the RINO battle will go on and on...but while some find it easier to quit that fight, the rest of us continue to battle against the very folks YOU are decrying. All talk...no do from the purists all too often.

As for the fraud, I'm all about calling that out. But that's not the topic at hand.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Online Bigun

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #809 on: March 20, 2021, 09:17:26 pm »
I believe I was making exactly that point, in a backhanded way.

Flub one issue, as measured by subjective means, and none of the rest matter one wit.  Even the theft of a National election does not move that observer.

If I ever run for a higher office, I will not be sharing my adventures here.

You should (run for a higher office) The experience is HIGHLY educational whether or not you choose to share what you learn with anyone.

@Cyber Liberty
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #810 on: March 20, 2021, 09:19:27 pm »
You should (run for a higher office) The experience is HIGHLY educational whether or not you choose to share what you learn with anyone.

@Cyber Liberty

I'm the County 1st Vice Chairman right now....I will likely go higher, but I have no interest in being a State Legislator.  Living in Phoenix for 3-4 months per year is a bit of a deal breaker...
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #811 on: March 20, 2021, 09:26:46 pm »
The survival of conservatism in America hangs by a thread...and you do nothing because the rest of us aren't pure enough.


No it doesn't. What is, IS, whether it is noticed or not. And the bill WILL come due, no matter who is in power.

And you can lay off the purity shtick. You should know by now it's moderate wing nonsense.

Quote
There's just nothing smart OR principled about such a stand...its simply self serving and short sighted. Holding to principles is not a YOU thing...its an all of us here thing. But this is a political philosophy, not a religious doctrine...we can have differences without considering each other apostates and heretics. Trump was, no doubt, imperfect in his conservatism...he was also unnecessarily abrasive and condescending at times. Reagan too, had his flaws...he often saw the good in his opponents when it wasn't there...for example.

So...yes Trump fell short as most men do...of the perfect conservative standard...but the son of a bitch fought to get everything conservative he could into legislation. And when that couldn't be done, he used Exec orders as much as was feasible. He governed conservatively...plain and simple...and just as conservatively as Reagan.

Well no, Conservatism as it touches politics is defined in Goldwater and Reagan. There is no differing in that. That is what it IS. So either you are a Goldwater Conservative, a Reagan Conservative, or a member of one or more if the three (four) factional groups. There isn't any other thing. All the rest of it is weaseling.

And I really don't care that Tumpy fell short. I figured he would. But that ain't the point of it. He gave me NOTHING to take home. Not a damn thing. Just like all the rest of the hyphenated 'conservatives'.
And no, I don't think he governed conservatively at all. And I think history will agree with me on that.

Sure and you could sat he was more conservative than a lot of em since Reagan, but that is a damn low bar. Soo....

I think y'all have settled for so long your expectations reflect it. maybe that's the thing.

I got pissed at those low expectations. That's why I left your party. And that's why I likely will not be back.
If Tumpy's the best you got... and if you consider this success...  **nononono*

It ain't Tumpy - I poke fun and all because it's so ludicrous.
It is an astonishment to me that y'all build all this around a man. almost humorous.
Maybe that's why y'all keep knocking Reagan down. I don't give a sh*t.
In the end even Reagan don't matter.

It's the principle things that matter - That's ALL that matters.
You can be content with so very little - But I am not. Put up or shut up. It is so desperate now that no half measure will do.

Online bigheadfred

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #812 on: March 20, 2021, 10:15:53 pm »
$20 Trillion is a made up number. It is twice that.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline skeeter

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #813 on: March 20, 2021, 11:00:06 pm »
Another meaningless trope.

Never win... Never get anything. STFU and pull the lever... Because Democrats...
That's what it means.
Sez you.

That is all.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #814 on: March 20, 2021, 11:08:38 pm »
Bullshit, he is not.  Knock it off.  Calling people "Democrats" on TBR is considered a personal attack.

@Mod1

That might be true of you or I,but how do you know it to be true for the poster under discussion?

Ever heard the phrase,"If it looks like a duck,walks like a duck,and quacks like a duck,it's a freaking duck!"?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 11:10:43 pm by sneakypete »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Online DB

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #815 on: March 20, 2021, 11:18:17 pm »
I dunno - a burgeoning economy, energy independence, a rebuilt military, rising wages, enhanced prestige overseas. I'd say if it weren't for the Covid Trump's administration would've compared very favorably to Reagan's.

Ya but...

Trump had a major part in the Covid response.

The "burgeoning economy" is going to be swallowed by inflation due to the massive devaluing of the dollar. That energy independence was a blink of the eye. The military is not rebuilt. It is more woke/PC than ever.

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #816 on: March 20, 2021, 11:37:35 pm »
Anyone know who I can leave this thread?
I am just a Technicolor Dream Cat riding this kaleidoscope of life.

Offline skeeter

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #817 on: March 21, 2021, 12:06:44 am »
Ya but...

Trump had a major part in the Covid response.

The "burgeoning economy" is going to be swallowed by inflation due to the massive devaluing of the dollar. That energy independence was a blink of the eye. The military is not rebuilt. It is more woke/PC than ever.
It is just not rational to blame Trump for those things.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #818 on: March 21, 2021, 12:12:33 am »
Thanks for that.

For the record, I do not think you anything other than a true conservative and an honest man. It is only your method that I reproach, never your integrity nor your positions on policy. That may not be worth much to you, but there it is.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Offline skeeter

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #819 on: March 21, 2021, 12:14:45 am »
For the record, I do not think you anything other than a true conservative and an honest man. It is only your method that I reproach, never your integrity nor your positions on policy. That may not be worth much to you, but there it is.
Well said @Mesaclone 

Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #820 on: March 21, 2021, 01:35:49 am »
Anyone know who I can leave this thread?

@Wingnut

I wish I knew what to tell you. There are a couple of threads I get pings to every day because I once made the mistake of responding to a post on it.

The only solution I have been able to come up with it to just open the thread and then close it.

Not  a good solution,but the best *I* could come up with.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Online Cyber Liberty

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #821 on: March 21, 2021, 01:37:47 am »
@Mod1

That might be true of you or I,but how do you know it to be true for the poster under discussion?

Ever heard the phrase,"If it looks like a duck,walks like a duck,and quacks like a duck,it's a freaking duck!"?

If the duck under discussion insists on quacking like a duck, he's toast.  We will not tolerate that shit.  The Mod has spoken.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Online Hoodat

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #822 on: March 21, 2021, 01:48:30 am »
You either live within your means, or you spend lavishly and push the bill onto your children, grandchildren, and so on.  One of these options is Conservative.  The other is not.  Ask yourself which one you choose to support.  No excuses.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

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Online DB

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #823 on: March 21, 2021, 03:50:21 am »
It is just not rational to blame Trump for those things.

What did Trump do to protect the constitution and stop the lock downs?

What significant spending bill did Trump veto to block even some of the wild spending in congress?

And if Trump was or is the answer in the future and he was not able to do anything about these things then why is he the answer at all?

It is well past time to move on regarding Trump.

Offline Killer Clouds

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #824 on: March 21, 2021, 04:24:27 am »
What did Trump do to protect the constitution and stop the lock downs?

What significant spending bill did Trump veto to block even some of the wild spending in congress?

And if Trump was or is the answer in the future and he was not able to do anything about these things then why is he the answer at all?

It is well past time to move on regarding Trump.
Your choice in 2024 will be Trump or Harris.