Author Topic: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers  (Read 28736 times)

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #375 on: March 12, 2021, 05:55:10 pm »
I understand the Rodents needed 60 Senators to vote to pass the bill, and they only had 59 plus one fraudulent pervert.

Under reconciliation, they only need a simple majority since debate can be thwarted without a cloture vote.  However, the tradeoff is that amendment process cannot be blocked, and amendments have to be read out loud in full on the Senate floor by the person submitting them.

Again, how long do you think it would take for one Senator to read a 20,000 page amendment?  Take that number, multiply by 40, and then repeat the process again for the second round of amendments.  Republicans can block any reconciliation bill through this process.  Their failure to do so shows they are either pathetically lazy and unworthy of our votes or that they are collaborators and unworthy of our votes.


I also understand that tax bills must originate in the House.   MessiahCare originated in the Senate.

Even more reason the Republicans should have tried to block it.  But they didn't.


I understand that the Constitution does not permit the federal government to create health coverage.

Even more reason the Republicans should have tried to block it.  But they didn't.


If you're going to go on and on about rules, you should start with the big rules, not the little ones.

Republican Senators took a solemn oath to uphold and defend those big rules against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  They failed to even put up a fight.  They are collaborators through and through.


And, of course, there's that little thing about "my body, my choice".  The Rodents decided people don't have the freedom to choose what to do with the insurance coverage on their bodies.  They are property, obviously, not sovereign citizens.

And the Republicans didn't lift a finger to stop it, nor have they lifted a finger since.  Each and every year since, the GOP has upheld this with full funding.  And for four of those years, Trump's signature can be found at the bottom.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

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Offline Hoodat

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #376 on: March 12, 2021, 05:57:09 pm »
If no one can define what a "republican" is how in the hell can they label anyone a RINO?

I wasn't aware that there was a distinction between the two.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #377 on: March 12, 2021, 07:05:13 pm »
If no one can define what a "republican" is how in the hell can they label anyone a RINO?

"RINO" has long been a bone of contention with me @Bigun   The term is tossed at republicans who are not conservative enough so they are "Republican in Name Only".  Hopefully, the jackass who coined this has been drummed out of politics.

The term assumes something that just isn't so .... it assumes the Republican Party is a Conservative Party when it is not and never has been.  Republicans have long been the center-right elitists -- socially liberal. with an emphasis on banking and big business, of which the military-industrial complex is one. 

Think Rockefellers, Bushes, Cheneys, Buckleys and there your have your examples of the center-right elitist, aka Republican.

Folks seem to think eight short years with Reagan signaled a conservative takeover of the Republican Party (even though he was more of a populist/nationalist).  It did no such thing.  Republicans had no use for conservatives and even less use for populists, and this continues unabated to this very day. 

Non-conservatives are not "RINOs" --- they are the ruling legacy of the Party.  In truth, conservatives are a minority within a minority national political party.  But if Trump's vision for the Republican Party prevails, this could end.

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #378 on: March 12, 2021, 08:14:28 pm »
Under reconciliation, they only need a simple majority since debate can be thwarted without a cloture vote.  However, the tradeoff is that amendment process cannot be blocked, and amendments have to be read out loud in full on the Senate floor by the person submitting them.

Again, how long do you think it would take for one Senator to read a 20,000 page amendment?  Take that number, multiply by 40, and then repeat the process again for the second round of amendments.  Republicans can block any reconciliation bill through this process.  Their failure to do so shows they are either pathetically lazy and unworthy of our votes or that they are collaborators and unworthy of our votes.


Even more reason the Republicans should have tried to block it.  But they didn't.


Even more reason the Republicans should have tried to block it.  But they didn't.


Republican Senators took a solemn oath to uphold and defend those big rules against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  They failed to even put up a fight.  They are collaborators through and through.


And the Republicans didn't lift a finger to stop it, nor have they lifted a finger since.  Each and every year since, the GOP has upheld this with full funding.  And for four of those years, Trump's signature can be found at the bottom.

You are simply incorrect. The reading of amendments can be removed at any moment via a rules change motion from the majority leader.... and confirmation of that change via a 51-50 vote. If you think we can hold this off using procedural measures you’re dreaming....the majority can set and reset any procedure they want with a simple majority vote.

It all comes down to Manchin. If he sticks to his position on the filibuster...we’re good. If he caved...disaster...perhaps even the fall of the Republic given the nature of HR1.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 08:16:58 pm by Mesaclone »
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Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #379 on: March 12, 2021, 08:19:04 pm »
"RINO" has long been a bone of contention with me @Bigun   The term is tossed at republicans who are not conservative enough so they are "Republican in Name Only".  Hopefully, the jackass who coined this has been drummed out of politics.

The term assumes something that just isn't so .... it assumes the Republican Party is a Conservative Party when it is not and never has been.  Republicans have long been the center-right elitists -- socially liberal. with an emphasis on banking and big business, of which the military-industrial complex is one. 

~I rest my case~

Quote
In truth, conservatives are a minority within a minority national political party. 

In fact, not true.

The Christian Right alone can generate a 60m vote bloc - who knows for sure, as it has not voted as a bloc in some time. That's the biggest thumping bloc there is.

Conservatives are no minority. They are just disenfranchised. Because they keep on believing promises  and not demanding success.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #380 on: March 12, 2021, 08:43:04 pm »
You are simply incorrect. The reading of amendments can be removed at any moment via a rules change motion from the majority leader.... and confirmation of that change via a 51-50 vote. If you think we can hold this off using procedural measures you’re dreaming....the majority can set and reset any procedure they want with a simple majority vote.

Not with reconciliation.  To change those rules requires 67 Senators.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #381 on: March 12, 2021, 09:48:10 pm »
Not with reconciliation.  To change those rules requires 67 Senators.

They can drop the 60 vote rule entirely with 51 votes...then change the floor rules regarding the reading of amendments with 51 as well. Remember....these are only rules. There is no rule that cannot be changed with 51 votes in the Senate. The constitution required majority votes on legislation....everything else in terms of getting to a vote is a rule that can be changed with 51 as well.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #382 on: March 12, 2021, 09:50:49 pm »
They can drop the 60 vote rule entirely with 51 votes...then change the floor rules regarding the reading of amendments with 51 as well. Remember....these are only rules. There is no rule that cannot be changed with 51 votes in the Senate. The constitution required majority votes on legislation....everything else in terms of getting to a vote is a rule that can be changed with 51 as well.

There is no 60-vote rule with reconciliation.  The 60-vote rule is for cloture.  Reconciliation has no cloture because reconciliation has no debate.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #383 on: March 12, 2021, 11:51:06 pm »
I wasn't aware that there was a distinction between the two.

A Republican is an American.

A RINO is a creature claiming to be a Republican who acts like any other Rodent.

Rodents are creatures which have befouled America since it's inception and who are now openly fascist and proud of their hatred for America.

RINOs are usually easy to spot.   They pretend to be Republicans, but not only claim Trump lost the election but insist it's his fault.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #384 on: March 12, 2021, 11:52:57 pm »
That leaves at most five Republicans in the US Senate.  Forty-five RINOs, 48 Democrats, and 2 hardline Communists.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #385 on: March 12, 2021, 11:58:33 pm »
@Sled Dog

I don't "murder babies",and neither does anyone else that I know. Murder is a legal term. Even abortion doctors don't "murder" babies. They just kill them.

Must be nice to quibble while the tiny corpses are flushed down the drain or chopped into parts for the resale market and the rest of the little people are sent to the crematoria.

They're people.

They're innocent people.

Thye're innocent people who are killed for profit.

That make it not only murder, but first degree murder.

But I understand how the diseased minds don't want to admit that they're supporting the mass murder of millions upon millions of tiny babies while the murderers rake in huge profits.

I'm glad I don't share your burden of guilt.

I can still be honest about my relationship with my dictionary.

And I see you're using the lying tactic of pretending that the murders being performed are "for the health of the incubator", when that is demonstrably untrue. 

And in the rare, VERY RARE, cases where it's necessary to terminate a pregnancy for maternal health reasons, then it truly is a self-defense reason.

But that's almost never necessary and almost all pre-natal baby-murders are done for issues of convenience to the incubators and the hacks that do the deed for them are not doctors since they have violated the Hippocratic Oath.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 12:01:56 am by Sled Dog »
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #386 on: March 13, 2021, 12:03:00 am »
Can anyone provide me with the bonefied definition of "Republican"?  You know, the one everybody agrees upon.

They have to be registered members of the Republican Party.

That wasn't difficult.

The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Sled Dog

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #387 on: March 13, 2021, 12:05:39 am »
If no one can define what a "republican" is how in the hell can they label anyone a RINO?

A RINO is a Republican who betrays America to curry favor from Rodents.

Doesn't mean they're not "repbulicans".  It means they're disgusting vile beasties who should be rounded up and de-horned because they make the Chinese happy.
The GOP is not the party leadership.  The GOP is the party MEMBERSHIP.   The members need to kick the leaders out if they leaders are going the wrong way.  No coddling allowed.

Offline Lincolncollector

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #388 on: March 13, 2021, 12:34:01 am »
Do you want to know what a RINO is? Google "Lowell Weiker," former senator and governor of Connecticut. He is a classic.

Online bigheadfred

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #389 on: March 13, 2021, 12:54:12 am »

I take you all seriously. Don't get me wrong, but...You all make me LOL.

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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #390 on: March 13, 2021, 01:19:58 am »
There is no 60-vote rule with reconciliation.  The 60-vote rule is for cloture.  Reconciliation has no cloture because reconciliation has no debate.

Right. And reconciliation is only a once per year use (technically 3 in certain circumstances but in actuality one). But as I said...that’s just a rule. Likewise, reading amendments word for word without limit outside of reconciliation...is just a rule. As such it can be overridden via a motion from the majority leader and brought to an end with a 51-50 vote...as is the case with ANY rule in the Senate.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #391 on: March 13, 2021, 02:29:53 am »
Must be nice to quibble while the tiny corpses are flushed down the drain or chopped into parts for the resale market and the rest of the little people are sent to the crematoria.

They're people.

They're innocent people.

Thye're innocent people who are killed for profit.

That make it not only murder, but first degree murder.

But I understand how the diseased minds don't want to admit that they're supporting the mass murder of millions upon millions of tiny babies while the murderers rake in huge profits.

Quote
I'm glad I don't share your burden of guilt.

@Sled Dog

You poor bay-bay! And here I am,guilt-free. Never took any part in any abortion in my life ,and did my best to stop the ONE abortion I knew was  going to happen before it happened.

Even offered to marry the girl and be named as the father on the birth certificate to save her embarrassment if she decided to have the baby.

I have nothing to apologize OR feel sorry for,so don't be holding any pity parties for me.
 
Quote
And I see you're using the lying tactic of pretending that the murders being performed are "for the health of the incubator", when that is demonstrably untrue. 

I tell you true when I say I do NOT lie. You need to back away from that.

Quote
And in the rare, VERY RARE, cases where it's necessary to terminate a pregnancy for maternal health reasons, then it truly is a self-defense reason.

But that's almost never necessary and almost all pre-natal baby-murders are done for issues of convenience to the incubators and the hacks that do the deed for them are not doctors since they have violated the Hippocratic Oath.

See,even YOU admit there are exceptions.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Hoodat

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #392 on: March 13, 2021, 02:40:17 am »
Right. And reconciliation is only a once per year use (technically 3 in certain circumstances but in actuality one). But as I said...that’s just a rule. Likewise, reading amendments word for word without limit outside of reconciliation...is just a rule. As such it can be overridden via a motion from the majority leader and brought to an end with a 51-50 vote...as is the case with ANY rule in the Senate.

Rule XXII - Precedence of motion

. . . ’ And if that question shall be decided in the affirmative
by three-fifths of the Senators duly chosen and sworn—except on
a measure or motion to amend the Senate rules, in which case the
necessary affirmative vote shall be two-thirds of the Senators
present and voting
. . .

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-113sdoc18/pdf/CDOC-113sdoc18.pdf#page=22
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #393 on: March 13, 2021, 03:03:17 am »
Must be nice to quibble while the tiny corpses are flushed down the drain or chopped into parts for the resale market and the rest of the little people are sent to the crematoria.

They're people.

They're innocent people.

Thye're innocent people who are killed for profit.

That make it not only murder, but first degree murder.

But I understand how the diseased minds don't want to admit that they're supporting the mass murder of millions upon millions of tiny babies while the murderers rake in huge profits.

I'm glad I don't share your burden of guilt.

I can still be honest about my relationship with my dictionary.

And I see you're using the lying tactic of pretending that the murders being performed are "for the health of the incubator", when that is demonstrably untrue. 

And in the rare, VERY RARE, cases where it's necessary to terminate a pregnancy for maternal health reasons, then it truly is a self-defense reason.

But that's almost never necessary and almost all pre-natal baby-murders are done for issues of convenience to the incubators and the hacks that do the deed for them are not doctors since they have violated the Hippocratic Oath.
QFT  Well said.
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Online roamer_1

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #394 on: March 13, 2021, 03:04:57 am »
Must be nice to quibble while the tiny corpses are flushed down the drain or chopped into parts for the resale market and the rest of the little people are sent to the crematoria.

They're people.

They're innocent people.

Thye're innocent people who are killed for profit.

That make it not only murder, but first degree murder.

But I understand how the diseased minds don't want to admit that they're supporting the mass murder of millions upon millions of tiny babies while the murderers rake in huge profits.

I'm glad I don't share your burden of guilt.

I can still be honest about my relationship with my dictionary.

And I see you're using the lying tactic of pretending that the murders being performed are "for the health of the incubator", when that is demonstrably untrue. 

And in the rare, VERY RARE, cases where it's necessary to terminate a pregnancy for maternal health reasons, then it truly is a self-defense reason.

But that's almost never necessary and almost all pre-natal baby-murders are done for issues of convenience to the incubators and the hacks that do the deed for them are not doctors since they have violated the Hippocratic Oath.

That's right. All of it.  :beer:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #395 on: March 13, 2021, 03:05:01 am »
I take you all seriously. Don't get me wrong, but...You all make me LOL.

I am an enemy of the state.
As is anyone who thinks. Why do you think they round up the "intellectuals" first?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online bigheadfred

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #396 on: March 13, 2021, 03:07:52 am »
As is anyone who thinks. Why do you think they round up the "intellectuals" first?

I am too square to round me up.
 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #397 on: March 13, 2021, 03:39:58 am »
A Republican is an American.

A RINO is a creature claiming to be a Republican who acts like any other Rodent.

Rodents are creatures which have befouled America since it's inception and who are now openly fascist and proud of their hatred for America.

RINOs are usually easy to spot.   They pretend to be Republicans, but not only claim Trump lost the election but insist it's his fault.
I'm going to disagree, here, and ask only that you let me explain.

What everyone, under the assumption that the GOP is the Conservative Party, has forgotten, is that the only way the GOP is "conservative" comes from being a bit more conservative than the Democrats, not from getting enough Conservative Merit Badges to become an Eagle Scout.

What y'all (and, admittedly, I, too) have been calling "RINOs" are actually the patent model for the brand. The Party ushered itself into power by military conquest of the Sovereign States which did not vote for it, against their will to dissolve the compact, and proceeded to pursue that conquest to the great economic benefit of the Mercantile and Banking groups in the North, who mercilessly looted the remains.

It's why I have never attended a Lincoln Day party; my ancestors would rototill their graves.

All of that, however, is completely independent of Conservatism, the Constitution (which was trod upon mercilessly during the War and afterwards), and is only an opposition position taken in order to maintain power in the decades long back and forth for those reins of power and finance, done in spite of, contravention to, and to the ultimate destruction of the Constitution. This is the path we have been on since the GOP eschewed its last Conservative candidate for President, just as happy to let LBJ steal that election, but even that is the inevitable result of decades where lip service to Conservatism is only a route to maintaining power, with minor dribbles tossed to the rubes and ever tightening chokeholds on the rights and prosperity of he American People.

Personal Liberty is a necessary casualty in that pursuit, and despite the lip service paid to conservative ideology and the Constitution, to fiscal sanity, to real military strength instead of sweetheart contracts let as a bone to toss the voters back home and not out of real advancement in armament, and inevitably jobs on K street or kickbacks and perks none of the voters could dream of.

Those people don't live a life anything like what ordinary folks do, where delivery drivers can no longer deduct mileage or the cost of keeping a vehicle running, not even the fuel to make their job happen, but the Congress and Federal Employees can. It's a two tiered world, baby, and ordinary folks are on the bottom rung, I don't care how good you are, how hard you work, or even how well regarded you are in your profession, ordinary people don't matter as much as a pimple on their ass, and you're being treated that way.

THAT is why I don't donate to campaigns, National Committees, or even respond to the "polls" which only care if the return envelope contains a donation, not one whit what you think. I don't even open that crap any more, just chuck it.

The only time the constituents matter is during the run-up to casting ballots, sucking money out of the suckers for a campaign (with no cheap motels on the itinerary, only joints with a few stars), living out of a bus for the cameras that most people can't dream of affording, or they'd live in a nicer house. Stand on the stump and tell us another one. Fertilized has a decided greening effect, but that 'green' is going into their pockets.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.

But here's the fun part:

Both sides fit that description. Both sides want your money, your liberty, YOU as a bond servant to the banking cartel that lends the wholly created and unbacked "money" they piss away to get more lucre for themselves, to enhance the perks and to raise their "class" another notch above the ordinary people on the hook for their lifestyles. Twenty five thousand dollar freezers full of $13/pint ice cream when most of America is happy to buy the cheap stuff on sale as a treat and shove it in the top of the fridge. It's just one more emphasis that YOU, Mr. and Mrs. America, are NOT them, and they are your rulers.

Marie Antoinette should have had it so good.

No, the ones being held out as true Republicans while the others are called RINOs is just completely backwards.
It's the RINOs who are true to form, and the Conservative exceptions who are not.

I agree the pejorative "RINO" is crap, but only because we've been using it all wrong.
At this point, it should not be a pejorative, at least if you are a Conservative, because the GOP, by and large isn't Conservative except in lip service a few weeks before an election.
And like the frog that gave the scorpion a ride across the wash, we shouldn't be surprised when we get stung.
It's a scorpion, after all, just doing what scorpions do.
As is the GOP.

Now, I noticed this some time back, even though I have used the term RINO to refer to non-Conservative members of the GOP, but it really isn't fair to expect the GOP to change its stripes and become the Conservative Party we wish we had.  They (The Republican Party) never really were, except in comparison to the Democrats, who just keep sliding down the slippery slope to Marxism on their path of playing 'victims for votes'. We've long expressed our disgust for the concept of moral relativity, but there it is, writ large, with political power, (if the GOP will use it something they have failed at miserably, and by all appearances, intentionally).

People like Ronald Reagan (who, while not completely Conservative, is about as close as we have hit in the post WWII years) are the fliers in the pattern, it is the the group that is off target, at least for those of us who really love the Constitution, the concept of a Constitutionally limited Federal Government, and Liberty.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 03:47:17 am by Smokin Joe »
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #398 on: March 13, 2021, 04:45:33 am »
Rule XXII - Precedence of motion

. . . ’ And if that question shall be decided in the affirmative
by three-fifths of the Senators duly chosen and sworn—except on
a measure or motion to amend the Senate rules, in which case the
necessary affirmative vote shall be two-thirds of the Senators
present and voting
. . .

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-113sdoc18/pdf/CDOC-113sdoc18.pdf#page=22

You’ve cited the rule of how amendments are currently voted upon under normal rules of order. That rule can be changed with a 51-50 vote just as the filibuster can be changed with a 51-50 vote. In other words, the very rule you are citing here is changed to (b) a majority of the Senators present and voting ...

Put simply, rule XXII can be removed entirely and itself replaced via a simple majority vote.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2021, 04:47:31 am by Mesaclone »
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers
« Reply #399 on: March 13, 2021, 05:34:18 am »
You’ve cited the rule of how amendments are currently voted upon under normal rules of order.

No, I cited how Senate rules can be changed.  Again, a measure or motion to amend the Senate rules requires the vote of  two-thirds of the Senators present and voting.


That rule can be changed with a 51-50 vote just as the filibuster can be changed with a 51-50 vote.

No. The filibuster rule cannot be "changed' with only 51 votes.  However, it can be discarded altogether with 51 votes by deeming it "unconstitutional" which is what the Dems would have to do to eliminate it.

This tactic cannot be employed when it comes to Senate rules, because to do so would be a declaration that the Senate making its own rules violates the Constitution and would nullify this bill, Obamacare, and any other bill passed under reconciliation.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-