Secession Is A Radical Solution That Sadly Doesn’t Seem So Radical Any More

[goatprairie]

@Sled Dog
@sneakypete
@Smokin Joe
@Bigun
@libertybele
@IsailedawayfromFR

I hate I came to this so late.  There are good arguments made by all.  But ultimately this thread needs to not die.   There is an existential issue being discussed here and the drumbeat will only grow louder.

Here’s the thing:
Those in favor of secession are right: if the Constitutional government is operating extra-Constitutionally, why should they be bound by the same construct?

And another more important point:
Whether secession is  explicitly or implicitly allowed or disallowed is irrelevant. Any states or people remaining after a secession will be faced with the choice of allowing those states to leave or fight to make them stay. In today’s climate, I’m not so sure which way that debate would go.

As has been alluded here, our rebellion against England was against the law of the time.  If the states remaining after a secession decide that is unconstitutional, then it shall be so, and by default: unconstitutional and illegal. The seceding states no longer have a say in that matter.

Now, lets presume for the moment they deem it so.

It will not be easy.  It will be horrifically bloody. There will be tumult to every facet of our way of life.  Families will be split apart and untold numbers will die. The outcome is completely unknown as are the unintended consequences.

And it is wholly necessary.

I would infinitely prefer an amicable divorce. The decision to make it a murder/suicide is on those who might decide they would rather force, at the point of a gun, others to stay where they no longer wish to be.

You have the right to rebel against an unjust government. However, states don't have the right to secede from the Union.

[goatprairie]

There is a point where, no matter the price of the ticket, the show ain't worth it. So get up and leave. People throw around the texture and meaning of the Constitution. Too suit.

If states want out it is because their citizens want out. Dissolve a mass part of the Fed Gov and we wouldn't feel the need to leave.

Start with * and his Ho.

How are states that are split 50-50 blue and red going to secede without a violent struggle? Do really think the fed. gov. is simply going to sit it out and let some people declare themselves an independent country?
You people simply aren't thinking about the practical matters of these things.

[bigheadfred]

How are states that are split 50-50 blue and red going to secede without a violent struggle? Do really think the fed. gov. is simply going to sit it out and let some people declare themselves an independent country?
You people simply aren't thinking about the practical matters of these things.

Look at the map. A surgical strike with my neutron bombs destroys the effed up enclaves or infestations.

It is too late for that.  Though. It is time to out selfish each other.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

How about you show me the document that says Texas can secede from the Union whenever it feels like it. You can't, because it doesn't exist.

No answer on the other comments, so you throw in a brick.

Go back and reread the thread.  I already said Texas had no special privilege via a document to secede.  It doesn't need one.

Freedom demands citizens of a state have the right to decide their own fate when the pact upon which it agreed has been broken by the other side.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

How are states that are split 50-50 blue and red going to secede without a violent struggle? Do really think the fed. gov. is simply going to sit it out and let some people declare themselves an independent country?
You people simply aren't thinking about the practical matters of these things.

Yeah, am glad the Founders decided to go a different way that they way you think as this country would have never happened.  There were plenty of crown loyalists that attempted to stop that Revolution.  And they and the mightiest military in the world at that time failed to stop freedom from happening.

[Sled Dog]

No answer on the other comments, so you throw in a brick.

Go back and reread the thread.  I already said Texas had no special privilege via a document to secede.  It doesn't need one.

Freedom demands citizens of a state have the right to decide their own fate when the pact upon which it agreed has been broken by the other side.

They do have that right.

What they don't have a right to do is impose their decision to run away on the other citizens of the state who don't want to go.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

They do have that right.

What they don't have a right to do is impose their decision to run away on the other citizens of the state who don't want to go.

You go ahead and keep peddling that as you have yet to convince anybody here from what I can see that freedom from tyranny is not a right endemic to all men.

And it is laughable that you believe if any one person in a state believes a state should stay, that the state is not permitted to leave.

Tyranny by the smallest minority one can imagine.

[sneakypete]

You go ahead and keep peddling that as you have yet to convince anybody here from what I can see that freedom from tyranny is not a right endemic to all men.

And it is laughable that you believe if any one person in a state believes a state should stay, that the state is not permitted to leave.

Tyranny by the smallest minority one can imagine.

@IsailedawayfromFR @Sled Dog

I must have missed that part. If it were true,we would all be slaves.

AFAIK,we all STILL have the right to move out of the state we live in if we no longer like living there. Or even the nation,if we can find another nation less oppressive that will have us.

[Sled Dog]

You go ahead and keep peddling that as you have yet to convince anybody here from what I can see that freedom from tyranny is not a right endemic to all men.

And it is laughable that you believe if any one person in a state believes a state should stay, that the state is not permitted to leave.

Tyranny by the smallest minority one can imagine.

No one is denied their right to emigrate.

Do you understand that?  It's really a complex idea.  For some.

No one has the right to force others to emigrate with them.

Do you understand that?  It's even more complex, since it says "you can move if you want do, but you can't force anyone to go with you."

Deep stuff, this.

It's no wonder certain groups of people miss it completely.

It's part of "you don't have the right".

[Bigun]

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Now show me the language in the constitution which prohibits a state from withdrawing from the union.  I've searched hard but cannot seem to find it.  Perhaps it is in a penumbra. I admit to having difficulty in reading those.

[goatprairie]

Yeah, am glad the Founders decided to go a different way that they way you think as this country would have never happened.  There were plenty of crown loyalists that attempted to stop that Revolution.  And they and the mightiest military in the world at that time failed to stop freedom from happening.

You always have the right to rebellion. Which is basically what the American CW was. States don't have the right to secede. See the difference? I guess not.

[goatprairie]

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Now show me the language in the constitution which prohibits a state from withdrawing from the union.  I've searched hard but cannot seem to find it.  Perhaps it is in a penumbra. I admit to having difficulty in reading those.

I've read that explanation for the right of secession many times. It takes a special kind of logic to twist that into the right of a state to leave the Union.
I still haven't gotten an answer as to how a state that was created by the fed. gov. after the original thirteen can be considered some sort of independent/sovereign entity  and allowed to leave the Union any time it felt like it.
Do you realize what that would mean? It would mean that at any time when a certain state got a majority or whatever was needed to qualify for secession, they could do so.
So you're living in a state that you like, but a majority of state legislators decide that things are so awful, they're leaving. They're now a separate country.
I echo the words of South Carolinian pro-Unionist lawyer James Petigru who remarked when South Carolina seceded in 1860 that "South Carolina was too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum."

[sneakypete]

No one has the right to force others to emigrate with them.

Do you understand that?  It's even more complex, since it says "you can move if you want do, but you can't force anyone to go with you."

Sure they do. Mothers and fathers have the right to force their children to leave with them. Well,maybe not the "right" according to their tribal leader/Shaman/CMMFIC,but they certainly have the moral right.
 
[/quote]

Mankind has been forcing people to stay against their wills since the dawn of mankind.

These same people have also been encouraging them to leave by their actions as tribal leaders.

They are the fathers of revolution.

A tale dating back all the way to the dawn of time.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

You always have the right to rebellion. Which is basically what the American CW was. States don't have the right to secede. See the difference? I guess not.

History remains a weak topic for you doesn't it?

There was no Civil War here.  The South never tried to overthrow the federal government, which is what a civil war is.  It was 100% about freedom against an aggressor who tried to impose tyranny upon sovereign states.

And you missed the part badly on the point that entry by a state is made to join a voluntary union, not one where one is forever a slave. 

[Bigun]

History remains a weak topic for you doesn't it?

There was no Civil War here.  The South never tried to overthrow the federal government, which is what a civil war is.  It was 100% about freedom against an aggressor who tried to impose tyranny upon sovereign states.

And you missed the part badly on the point that entry by a state is made to join a voluntary union, not one where one is forever a slave.

  Exactly right!

[Elderberry]

Dailymail.com By Rachel Sharp 11 March 2021

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9351315/Residents-wealthy-Atlanta-community-push-police-force-amid-crime-wave.html

Atlanta's richest neighborhood Buckhead pushes for SECESSION and its own police force as city-wide crime explosion sees murders soar 80%: Footage emerges of rifle-wielding robbers attack wealthy resident on their doorsteps

•   The Buckhead Exploratory Committee, made up of residents of the city's richest neighborhood of Buckhead, are looking to break away from the city
•   The move comes in the wake of a surge in violent crime that has left people 'genuinely concerned for their safety,' they said
•   In January, one woman was thrown to the ground on her driveway and had a gun held to her head before robbers made off with her purse and cellphone
•   Home surveillance footage shows a man sprinting to reach the safety of his home as a car pulled up outside with a man touting a rifle
•   In December, a seven-year-old girl was shot dead while Christmas shopping
•   Crime data from Atlanta Police Department shows robberies increased 40 percent in the period running January 1 to February 20 compared to last year
•   Aggravated assaults also increased 35 percent, auto theft 63 percent and larceny from auto theft 32 percent
•   Across the city as a whole, homicides were up 80 percent compared to the same period last year, shootings 32 percent and robberies 17 percent
•   Research shows crime rose in most US cities last year, with homicides up in 29 of 34 cities surveyed

Residents in a wealthy Atlanta community are trying to create their own police force as part of a push for secession as the city is rocked by a crime wave with murders up 80 percent so far this year.

The Buckhead Exploratory Committee, made up of residents of the city's richest neighborhood of Buckhead, are looking to break away from the city in the wake of a surge in violent crime that has left people 'genuinely concerned for their safety.'

In recent months, home surveillance footage captured the moment a man sprinted to reach the safety of his home as a car pulled up with a man brandishing a rifle.

[Sled Dog]

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Now show me the language in the constitution which prohibits a state from withdrawing from the union.  I've searched hard but cannot seem to find it.  Perhaps it is in a penumbra. I admit to having difficulty in reading those.

Ah, geez, again?

Article I, Section 8, Clause 15:
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Wow.  Looks like the power to suppress insurrections is one of the enumerated powers of Congress, and hence the Tenth Amendment does not apply.

[Sled Dog]

History remains a weak topic for you doesn't it?

There was no Civil War here.  The South never tried to overthrow the federal government, which is what a civil war is.  It was 100% about freedom against an aggressor who tried to impose tyranny upon sovereign states.

And you missed the part badly on the point that entry by a state is made to join a voluntary union, not one where one is forever a slave.

Yeah.  There was a civil war.

Everyone was very polite and everything.  Always saying "After you"  "Oh, no, my dear Alfonse, after you."  "No no, I insist, after you".  And they'd stick out their pinkies when drinking whiskey and everything.

You guys really hate the realities of history, don't you?

You call it "Northern Aggression" when it was the secesh that fired the first shots...unprovoked first shots, at that.

Then you pretend it wasn't a civil war, possibly because they weren't polite to each other?   Whatever.

When you people descend to this retarded insanity everyone else knows your case is totally lost.

The Constitution is not on your side.

History is not on your side.

The future is not on your side.

Must be damned rough, I do say.

[Sled Dog]

Do you understand that?  It's even more complex, since it says "you can move if you want do, but you can't force anyone to go with you."

Sure they do. Mothers and fathers have the right to force their children to leave with them. Well,maybe not the "right" according to their tribal leader/Shaman/CMMFIC,but they certainly have the moral right.

Seriously?

You're equating parental responsibility with someone's insane freaking NEIGHBORS demanding that everyone in the whole state be divorced from the Constitution just because they're both unhappy and ignorant?

That's the argument you're pulling out at the very end?

Who made them everyone else's Karen?

[Elderberry]

Conservative meeting over Texas secession draws protestors

Sports.yahoo.com Weatherford Democrat, Texas 3/7/2021

https://sports.yahoo.com/conservative-meeting-over-texas-secession-045900152.html

A meeting of the Parker County Conservatives drew several left-wing activists and a slight police presence Friday night in Weatherford.

Conservatives were gathered for their monthly meeting at the Doss Center, where the topics centered around two House bills regarding provisions for "re-asserting Texas sovereignty" and "fighting back against the impending attack on our freedom," according to a meeting agenda sent out prior.

Guest speakers included a state representative out of District 73, Kyle Biedermann, who recently filed formal legislation calling for Texas secession. Biedermann was also in attendance at the January 6 rally at the U.S. Capitol, but did not storm the building.

Activists, many from the Progressives in Parker County group, showed up outside of the Doss, chanting "treason" and "traitor," with a bullhorn and signs outside the building.

[skeeter]

Conservative meeting over Texas secession draws protestors

Sports.yahoo.com Weatherford Democrat, Texas 3/7/2021

https://sports.yahoo.com/conservative-meeting-over-texas-secession-045900152.html

We gotta start packing our own bullhorns - "Left wing Nose Picker!" "Progressive Bed wetter!"

[Sled Dog]

We gotta start packing our own bullhorns - "Left wing Nose Picker!" "Progressive Bed wetter!"

Just tape their own Karen shrieks and play it back at them.   

[Bigun]

Ah, geez, again?

Article I, Section 8, Clause 15:
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Wow.  Looks like the power to suppress insurrections is one of the enumerated powers of Congress, and hence the Tenth Amendment does not apply.

Sorry! No Sale!

Withdrawing from a union that is no longer serving the people of the state is NOT an insurrection no matter how hard you try to make it one.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Yeah.  There was a civil war.

Everyone was very polite and everything.  Always saying "After you"  "Oh, no, my dear Alfonse, after you."  "No no, I insist, after you".  And they'd stick out their pinkies when drinking whiskey and everything.

You guys really hate the realities of history, don't you?

You call it "Northern Aggression" when it was the secesh that fired the first shots...unprovoked first shots, at that.

Then you pretend it wasn't a civil war, possibly because they weren't polite to each other?   Whatever.

When you people descend to this retarded insanity everyone else knows your case is totally lost.

The Constitution is not on your side.

History is not on your side.

The future is not on your side.

Must be damned rough, I do say.

You obviously failed your history lessons.

I cannot communicate with one who has no ability to comprehend.

I wish you the best in the future you are willing to oblige while those who seek freedoms enjoy those freedoms elsewhere.

[Sled Dog]

Sorry! No Sale!

Withdrawing from a union that is no longer serving the people of the state is NOT an insurrection no matter how hard you try to make it one.

Actually, it is.

You calling a rabid skunk a striped kitty doesn't change the smell.