Secession Is A Radical Solution That Sadly Doesn’t Seem So Radical Any More

[Elderberry]

We never used that term.  That was something only skimmers would use.  I was an MM(SS).  They didn't have MMN's in the day.

I think MMN's have been around for a long long time, but I now see that they tack on a SS or SW. So he would now be a MMN(SS). He served 2004 to 2010.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Yeah, because the goal of the Southern Democrats who pushed the secession gambit ...were in fact doing so solely to preserve their slavery culture.

You may be sick of it, but your vomit won't change historical reality.

I now believe you are clinically insane.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

@sneakypete

sneaky, my friend, I was born and grew to adulthood in Texas.  Back in my day, every student in a Texas school, was taught this - Before Texas agreed to join the union, they insisted on the right to leave the union, and that was included in the documents.  It was/is the only state to have that protection to leave if they want.  They will not leave.

That is a falsehood.

I grew up in Texas, had plenty of Texas history in school and my father had a Masters in Texas history.

There is no document which grants Texas special provisions to secede.  All states have that right.

There are two special provisions however, which Texas possesses specifically given by Congress upon the state entering the Union that no other state was granted.

1.  Texas was allowed to retain its state lands instead of being ceded to the US.  This proved instrumental in retaining the wealth of the state.

2.  Texas has the right to split into five states by its own volition and without approval by the US.  This gives an additional 8 Senate seats in Congress.  The representatives of Texas knew full well that it might need those votes to preserve its freedoms someday.

[Smokin Joe]

Sure I have.

Now, because you people have lost the state secession argument, some are willing to bring up secession-by-county.

That's nice.

It's still the urban areas where the industries are.

It's still the urban areas where the cannon-fodder troops are.

It's still the urban areas where the money is.

It's still the urban areas which will garner the support of the international community, thereby deny said support to the "counties".

Secession is still a losing argument, and those advocating that silliness still need to grow up and find a better argument.

Yep. How long will they run when the food, the fuel, the electricity are cut off, because all that comes from elsewhere.

[Bigun]

Yep. How long will they run when the food, the fuel, the electricity are cut off, because all that comes from elsewhere.

 

[goatprairie]

That is a falsehood.

I grew up in Texas, had plenty of Texas history in school and my father had a Masters in Texas history.

There is no document which grants Texas special provisions to secede.  All states have that right.

There are two special provisions however, which Texas possesses specifically given by Congress upon the state entering the Union that no other state was granted.

1.  Texas was allowed to retain its state lands instead of being ceded to the US.  This proved instrumental in retaining the wealth of the state.

2.  Texas has the right to split into five states by its own volition and without approval by the US.  This gives an additional 8 Senate seats in Congress.  The representatives of Texas knew full well that it might need those votes to preserve its freedoms someday.

"All states have that right (to secede)."

So you're saying the 37 states that were not original colonies but created by the fed. gov. are somehow sovereign entities with the right to leave any time they feel like it?
Why would the fed. gov. create sovereign independent countries that could do that?
The answer: they wouldn't.
No state has any more rights than any other state under the fed. constitution. No state has the right to secede. It's called a union for a reason.

[goatprairie]

Yep. How long will they run when the food, the fuel, the electricity are cut off, because all that comes from elsewhere.

Many of these would be secessionist states are split as far as pro-secession and anti-secession. You'd have a civil war inside states before you'd have a national insurrection.
At any rate, attempts by pro-secession groups to seize power and declare themselves independent would be swiftly crushed by the fed. gov.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

No state has any more rights than any other state under the fed. constitution. No state has the right to secede. It's called a union for a reason.

You are delusional.  The Constitution provides for different states to be represented in the House on the basis of apportionment, therefore wielding voting rights superior/inferior to other states.

And you really do not know the history of Texas' entry into the Union. Go look it up.

[sneakypete]

  It's called a union for a reason.

@goatprairie

Yes,and that reason is it was a voluntary marriage of equals,not a master/slave relationship.

[Axeslinger]

Man up, people.   If you want what you want, say so.  Stop pretending it's Constitutional, because it is not.   Stop pretending it will be easy, because it will be bloody.  Stop pretending you will succeed, for you almost certainly will not.   The secessionist movement of today isn't blessed with the kind of geniuses that made a successful nation out of the calamity of war in 1887.

@Sled Dog
@sneakypete
@Smokin Joe
@Bigun
@libertybele
@IsailedawayfromFR

I hate I came to this so late.  There are good arguments made by all.  But ultimately this thread needs to not die.   There is an existential issue being discussed here and the drumbeat will only grow louder.

Here’s the thing:
Those in favor of secession are right: if the Constitutional government is operating extra-Constitutionally, why should they be bound by the same construct?

And another more important point:
Whether secession is  explicitly or implicitly allowed or disallowed is irrelevant. Any states or people remaining after a secession will be faced with the choice of allowing those states to leave or fight to make them stay. In today’s climate, I’m not so sure which way that debate would go.

As has been alluded here, our rebellion against England was against the law of the time.  If the states remaining after a secession decide that is unconstitutional, then it shall be so, and by default: unconstitutional and illegal. The seceding states no longer have a say in that matter.

Now, lets presume for the moment they deem it so.

It will not be easy.  It will be horrifically bloody. There will be tumult to every facet of our way of life.  Families will be split apart and untold numbers will die. The outcome is completely unknown as are the unintended consequences.

And it is wholly necessary.

I would infinitely prefer an amicable divorce. The decision to make it a murder/suicide is on those who might decide they would rather force, at the point of a gun, others to stay where they no longer wish to be.

[bigheadfred]

There is a point where, no matter the price of the ticket, the show ain't worth it. So get up and leave. People throw around the texture and meaning of the Constitution. Too suit.

If states want out it is because their citizens want out. Dissolve a mass part of the Fed Gov and we wouldn't feel the need to leave.

Start with * and his Ho.

[240B]

America has become in the last few weeks undeniably a proto-Cuba, and Schumer/Pelosi are stepping into the shoes of Castro.

By the end of this year or before, we all will be living in a dystopian militarized State, with Federal politicians acting as 'protected rulers' or 'overseers' rather than representatives. Elections are now meaningless. Rule-of-Law has become meaningless as it always does with any totalitarian Communist coup.

If you are not prepping by now, then you have to start now.
I see food and good shortages coming sooner than later.

With the Democrats throwing around bill after bill calling for hundreds of billions of dollars, one after the other, I see the American dollar crashing to unheard of lows. The Democrats are throwing around billions of billions of dollars like it is Monopoly money. This is obviously not sustainable.

The year 2022 will be unrecognizable to most Americans. We will all feel like we have moved to a different place in the world which does not recognize ANY traditional American culture.

Not gloom and doom, just simple reality. Anyone expecting a turnaround in 2022 is dreaming. By then the Democrats will have elections and voters so corrupted and locked up in their pockets, a Republican will never be elected to any office anywhere. Which has always been the goal and the dream of Democrats since the 60s. Now they have done it.

Complacent, obsequious, and cowardly Republican politicians, combined with a very focused and deliberate effort to 'dumb down' the American population has lead the Democrats to victory. And they deserve it. They had a 50 year plan and they executed it perfectly, with almost no opposition.

Again, this is not intended to be a gloom and doom post. All I am urging is to face reality and to prepare for it as much as you can. The next four years are going to be complete insanity. And EVERYONE, Liberals, Conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, we are all heading for a world of shit. Liberals will get 'exactly' what they voted for.

Saving money will not help you. For decades Democrats have been pushing wealth confiscation over a certain amount and, of course, land and property confiscation which they 'feel' should rightfully belong to them. And they have proven already that the banks are in their pocket.

For year after year, for decades, the wacko Liberals in Hollywood have promised to 'leave the country' if this or that happens. Many of them will finally fulfill that promise over the next three years. None of them are immune to what is on the horizon. They are not immune to what their utter 'stupidity and hate' have brought down on all of us.

All the crazy-ass Liberals/Democrats are about to find out that wanting a Communist System is not at all the same as having a Communist System. Liberals are like irrational children rebelling against their parents. Once they win, now what? Who is going to cook dinner? Who is going to pay the bills now?

[Bigun]

There is a point where, no matter the price of the ticket, the show ain't worth it. So get up and leave. People throw around the texture and meaning of the Constitution. Too suit.

If states want out it is because their citizens want out. Dissolve a mass part of the Fed Gov and we wouldn't feel the need to leave.

Start with * and his Ho.

The U. S. Constitution assigns 17 things for the federal government to do and if it had been confined to doing only those things there would not be a problem.

[libertybele]

America has become in the last few weeks undeniably a proto-Cuba, and Schumer/Pelosi are stepping into the shoes of Castro.

By the end of this year or before, we all will be living in a dystopian militarized State, with Federal politicians acting as 'protected rulers' or 'overseers' rather than representatives. Elections are now meaningless. Rule-of-Law has become meaningless as it always does with any totalitarian Communist coup.

If you are not prepping by now, then you have to start now.
I see food and good shortages coming sooner than later.

With the Democrats throwing around bill after bill calling for hundreds of billions of dollars, one after the other, I see the American dollar crashing to unheard of lows. The Democrats are throwing around billions of billions of dollars like it is Monopoly money. This is obviously not sustainable.

The year 2022 will be unrecognizable to most Americans. We will all feel like we have moved to a different place in the world which does not recognize ANY traditional American culture.

[size=2]Not gloom and doom, just simple reality. Anyone expecting a turnaround in 2022 is dreaming. By then the Democrats will have elections and voters so corrupted and locked up in their pockets, a Republican will never be elected to any office anywhere. Which has always been the goal and the dream of Democrats since the 60s. Now they have done it.[/size]

Complacent, obsequious, and cowardly Republican politicians, combined with a very focused and deliberate effort to 'dumb down' the American population has lead the Democrats to victory. And they deserve it. They had a 50 year plan and they executed it perfectly, with almost no opposition.

Again, this is not intended to be a gloom and doom post. All I am urging is to face reality and to prepare for it as much as you can. The next four years are going to be complete insanity. And EVERYONE, Liberals, Conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, we are all heading for a world of shit. Liberals will get 'exactly' what they voted for.

Saving money will not help you. For decades Democrats have been pushing wealth confiscation over a certain amount and, of course, land and property confiscation which they 'feel' should rightfully belong to them. And they have proven already that the banks are in their pocket.

For year after year, for decades, the wacko Liberals in Hollywood have promised to 'leave the country' if this or that happens. Many of them will finally fulfill that promise over the next three years. None of them are immune to what is on the horizon. They are not immune to what their utter 'stupidity and hate' have brought down on all of us.

All the crazy-ass Liberals/Democrats are about to find out that wanting a Communist System is not at all the same as having a Communist System. Liberals are like irrational children rebelling against their parents. Once they win, now what? Who is going to cook dinner? Who is going to pay the bills now?

Exactly. Not gloom and doom but REALITY!

[240B]

So many Biden voters have already lost their jobs and are paying twice as much for gasoline and electricity.
As for the corporations who supported the coup, the Democrats are already pushing to unionized all workers in America.
Before long, all Democrats/Liberals/NeverTrumps and Biden voters in general, are all going to realize the exact opposite of what they thought they were voting for. That is a fact.

[libertybele]

So many Biden voters have already lost their jobs and are paying twice as much for gasoline and electricity.
As for the corporations who supported the coup, the Democrats are already pushing to unionized all workers in America.
Before long, all Democrats/Liberals/NeverTrumps and Biden voters in general, are all going to realize the exact opposite of what they thought they were voting for. That is a fact.

 It's only going to get worse.  That is a fact.

[roamer_1]

So many Biden voters have already lost their jobs and are paying twice as much for gasoline and electricity.
As for the corporations who supported the coup, the Democrats are already pushing to unionized all workers in America.
Before long, all Democrats/Liberals/NeverTrumps and Biden voters in general, are all going to realize the exact opposite of what they thought they were voting for. That is a fact.

I see it coming. I seen it coming a long way off.
Let it come. Far better now than on my grandkids, when they may no longer have the means to fight.

And the next natural fall-back is to the bastion and bulwark of the sovereign states.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

So many Biden voters have already lost their jobs and are paying twice as much for gasoline and electricity.

That is nothing compared to what will be coming because Biden and gang want to increase the gasoline tax by 50 cents per gallon on top of what we already pay, in addition to ceding oil price control back to OPEC so it will escalate once again.  And electricity will be multiples more costly once the renewables mandates kick in hard.

All of this will cause the US to be less competitive to China so more US jobs will be lost.

It is pure insanity.  Or AOC's fantasy being realized.

[240B]

That is nothing compared to what will be coming because Biden and gang want to increase the gasoline tax by 50 cents per gallon on top of what we already pay, in addition to ceding oil price control back to OPEC so it will escalate once again.  And electricity will be multiples more costly once the renewables mandates kick in hard.

All of this will cause the US to be less competitive to China so more US jobs will be lost.

It is pure insanity.

It seems intentional. If an enemy came up with a plan to "crash" the U.S. economy, they would do word for word, step by step, everything the Democrats are currently doing. But why? Why do the Democrats seem to want to destroy the economy and everything on their watch?

The poor Liberals voted Biden because they are idiots. They voted for the $15 minimum wage and the 'guaranteed income for all' mantra the Democrats were selling. Which if either of these actually happened they would be nullified almost immediately by an exponential spike in inflation. What idiotic Liberals cannot comprehend is that it does not matter how much money you 'make', it is all about what you can 'buy' with that money. It would be like throwing coal into the furnace of inflation.

The NeverTrumps are sitting back smoking cigars, gleeful that they managed to kill a God, - Trump. That is until they see their taxes skyrocket, their workers unionized, and their 'excess' wealth confiscated.

It will be entertaining to see how the Dems and their slave gimps in the media twist themselves into pretzels trying to pin all of the coming economic disaster on Trump.

[Sled Dog]

I think MMN's have been around for a long long time, but I now see that they tack on a SS or SW. So he would now be a MMN(SS). He served 2004 to 2010.

Yeah.   I was discharged in the mid-80's.   MMN wasn't a thing, then.

I'm sure it's because all the conventional MMs were losing on the promotion ladders because the nuke MMs were going to sweep the ratings exams, just like the EMs and ETs were.   

So it was a matter of fairness.

And on the other side of the coin, what the heck does a submarine nuke MM know about steam galley equipment, fans, ducting, hydraulic systems, and anchors?    Those either didn't exist or were the property of the Auxiliary Division.

Was fun, kinda, except for the part about running into other submarines...stupid officers.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Anybody want to see real radical?

Check out the question and answer Biden gave.

He is putting US taxpayers on the hook for solving the global epidemic.


http://youtu.be/QtNHkJHfSRE

[Sled Dog]

Yep. How long will they run when the food, the fuel, the electricity are cut off, because all that comes from elsewhere.

That IS the THING.

Why secede when the better solution is so obvious and so simple?

[Elderberry]

Yeah.   I was discharged in the mid-80's.   MMN wasn't a thing, then.

I'm sure it's because all the conventional MMs were losing on the promotion ladders because the nuke MMs were going to sweep the ratings exams, just like the EMs and ETs were.   

So it was a matter of fairness.

And on the other side of the coin, what the heck does a submarine nuke MM know about steam galley equipment, fans, ducting, hydraulic systems, and anchors?    Those either didn't exist or were the property of the Auxiliary Division.

Was fun, kinda, except for the part about running into other submarines...stupid officers.

Yeah, I don't remember my son talking about those systems. He did talk about losing too many tools working in the bilges. He did get training and licensing on refrigeration systems and worked quite a bit on them. It seems he spent most of his time working in the engine room.

When I was in, ETs were critical for a while. My chief had been a Master-at-Arms. He signed his name to a piece of paper and became an ET. He didn't know a damn thing about electronics.

[Sled Dog]

Here’s the thing:
Those in favor of secession are right: if the Constitutional government is operating extra-Constitutionally, why should they be bound by the same construct?

Because they can't claim to both revere the Constitution and rape it.

And because their chosen method will not advance them to their desired goal.

There's a lot of power in the simple phrase "it won't work like you think".

And another more important point:
Whether secession is  explicitly or implicitly allowed or disallowed is irrelevant. Any states or people remaining after a secession will be faced with the choice of allowing those states to leave or fight to make them stay. In today’s climate, I’m not so sure which way that debate would go.

That's because there will be no debate.

The states that do not want to secede are Rodent states and those people aren't allowed to form opinions and fuel debate.

So the reaction to any enforced secession will be war.   Automatically and without thought, because Rodents cannot think, not even the leadership.   Their brains are infected with slogans, even the Master Minds, and slogans short-cut thought and the brain goes straight to emotion.   Rodents have cunning, not intelligence.

So secession means war in it's grossest form.

And...secession means surrendering the advantages a more asymmetric form of rebellion would provide them.

As has been alluded here, our rebellion against England was against the law of the time.  If the states remaining after a secession decide that is unconstitutional, then it shall be so, and by default: unconstitutional and illegal. The seceding states no longer have a say in that matter.

Now, lets presume for the moment they deem it so.

It will not be easy.  It will be horrifically bloody. There will be tumult to every facet of our way of life.  Families will be split apart and untold numbers will die. The outcome is completely unknown as are the unintended consequences.

Oh, no. 

The outcome is fairly certain.  The secesh loses.  They won't have international backing, they don't have the population, they don't have the industries.   And while they would be hesitant to use whatever nuclear weapons they can grab, the Rodents would enjoy the heck out of using them on their hated enemies.

Secesh loses.  The American Revolution was an almost unique circumstance.   History will not repeat itself in that way again.

And it is wholly necessary.

I would infinitely prefer an amicable divorce. The decision to make it a murder/suicide is on those who might decide they would rather force, at the point of a gun, others to stay where they no longer wish to be.

I prefer murdering the Rodent way of life at it's roots.   There will be no amicable divorce, not when the slut-wife is a bat-dropping crazy she-wolf with rabies following orders from Winnie the Pooh.

[goatprairie]

You are delusional.  The Constitution provides for different states to be represented in the House on the basis of apportionment, therefore wielding voting rights superior/inferior to other states.

And you really do not know the history of Texas' entry into the Union. Go look it up.

How about you show me the document that says Texas can secede from the Union whenever it feels like it. You can't, because it doesn't exist.