Author Topic: Biden cancels Elon Musk's adventures in space  (Read 1915 times)

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Offline Sled Dog

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Re: Biden cancels Elon Musk's adventures in space
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2021, 04:56:04 pm »
Yep,  but then there's transit time and supplies, including fuel. Be good to have a planetary base nearby, with orbital support facilities. We have had rovers putter around Mars, but we don't really know what is down there in terms of resources.


What's the planet good for, when the supplies are most economically gathered somewhere else?

Mine water ice and hydrocarbons from Saturn's moons, Jupiter's too.   

Mine metals and other materials from Earth's moon and the asteroids.

Ship them where they are needed, as needed.

What's the reason to detour all the way over to Mars?

There's a reason Niven's Known Space tales never colonized Mars, and it had nothing to do with his fictitious hydrophobic Martians.    It's as much of a dumping place as Venus.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Biden cancels Elon Musk's adventures in space
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2021, 06:25:20 pm »

What's the planet good for, when the supplies are most economically gathered somewhere else?

Mine water ice and hydrocarbons from Saturn's moons, Jupiter's too.   

Mine metals and other materials from Earth's moon and the asteroids.

Ship them where they are needed, as needed.

What's the reason to detour all the way over to Mars?

There's a reason Niven's Known Space tales never colonized Mars, and it had nothing to do with his fictitious hydrophobic Martians.    It's as much of a dumping place as Venus.
I'm not arguing that the actual mining might be cheaper and easier elsewhere, especially in the Belt, where fragments of a planet and stray chunks of nickel/iron are there for the taking, but you left out shipping. Ideally, ores would be processed in the Belt, and even more ideally manufacturing will take place there as well.
The planets won't always be aligned but Mars will always be closer to the belt (as a region) than the Earth and Moon.  In any endeavour, Sh*t Happens, especially early on. While Mars is only roughly half an AU closer to the belt (if in conjunction with your destination), it also has the differing orbital velocity which makes two trips around the sun to the one of the belt. Mars orbit offers the opportunity for survey vessels to have a way station moving at a differential velocity which might not only enable, but enhance exploration and evaluation of the bodies in the belt for resources.

While the distance to any given body in the Belt depends on orbital position, Mars is only half the distance from the Sun to the belt (at just over 1.5 AU), but Earth and the Moon are even less close (1AU). Currently, that .5 AU represents months of travel, and 4.3 minutes of communications lag (for anything in the EM spectrum). Add another 8.6 minutes to the closest part of the Belt--if everything is in conjunction, and it only goes up as orbital positions vary.

Unless resources are discovered on Mars which merit its own mining operations, it is unlikely that it would be much more than a transshipment point, a support base when available, and an operations base for exploration of the Belt until bases could be established in the Belt itself. Most of that activity would be in Mars orbit, rather than on the surface, simply because of the energy savings of being off planet. Add in the human factor and until you can generate artificial gravity (which could change all the equations in re drives and energy needed), humans will require some time in even partial G to function correctly, biologically.

Similar arguments were made during the space race with Von Braun's concept of an orbital station above Earth before going to the Moon. That Station could have served as an assembly point for interplanetary and Lunar ships and operations, instead, in our race with the Russians, we opted for the Moon more directly. When we were done we had some stunning photographs, a feather in our cap, and a few boxes of rocks, many of which were handed out as souvenirs. Bragging rights, but little enough to show long term for the effort besides what we learned while going and while there. I'm not discounting that knowledge, but it seemed little enough for the effort, and hardly tangible progress toward colonization or even exploitation of Space and the vast resources out there.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2021, 06:29:05 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Offline Sled Dog

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Re: Biden cancels Elon Musk's adventures in space
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2021, 03:48:57 am »
And half the time any asteroid is about 200 million miles from Mars.   

That's very inconvenient, for somebody dying of radiation induced cancer or enjoying a broken leg. 

No, Mars is still useless.

If a serious colonization effort was undertaken, then the most effective thing to do would be to seed a few asteroids with major medical facilities, and even then there will be times when all of them, and Mars, would be on the opposite side of the asteroid belt from the dying guy.

Pioneers die.   It's part of the job description.

No, any colonists that want rapid access to the doctor is going to invest in a good medical center on their particular ship.

Carrier fairies in the US Navy have access to dental and doctors.

The real men of the submarine fleet do not.   And yeah, in peace time the injured get medevac'd off the boat to the hospital.  But if the mission was critical in war time, there's a fair chance that some unlucky submariner might have to die to protect the mission.

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Biden cancels Elon Musk's adventures in space
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2021, 05:39:10 pm »
I'm not arguing that the actual mining might be cheaper and easier elsewhere, especially in the Belt, where fragments of a planet and stray chunks of nickel/iron are there for the taking, but you left out shipping. Ideally, ores would be processed in the Belt, and even more ideally manufacturing will take place there as well.
The planets won't always be aligned but Mars will always be closer to the belt (as a region) than the Earth and Moon.  In any endeavour, Sh*t Happens, especially early on. While Mars is only roughly half an AU closer to the belt (if in conjunction with your destination), it also has the differing orbital velocity which makes two trips around the sun to the one of the belt. Mars orbit offers the opportunity for survey vessels to have a way station moving at a differential velocity which might not only enable, but enhance exploration and evaluation of the bodies in the belt for resources.

While the distance to any given body in the Belt depends on orbital position, Mars is only half the distance from the Sun to the belt (at just over 1.5 AU), but Earth and the Moon are even less close (1AU). Currently, that .5 AU represents months of travel, and 4.3 minutes of communications lag (for anything in the EM spectrum). Add another 8.6 minutes to the closest part of the Belt--if everything is in conjunction, and it only goes up as orbital positions vary.

Unless resources are discovered on Mars which merit its own mining operations, it is unlikely that it would be much more than a transshipment point, a support base when available, and an operations base for exploration of the Belt until bases could be established in the Belt itself. Most of that activity would be in Mars orbit, rather than on the surface, simply because of the energy savings of being off planet. Add in the human factor and until you can generate artificial gravity (which could change all the equations in re drives and energy needed), humans will require some time in even partial G to function correctly, biologically.

Similar arguments were made during the space race with Von Braun's concept of an orbital station above Earth before going to the Moon. That Station could have served as an assembly point for interplanetary and Lunar ships and operations, instead, in our race with the Russians, we opted for the Moon more directly. When we were done we had some stunning photographs, a feather in our cap, and a few boxes of rocks, many of which were handed out as souvenirs. Bragging rights, but little enough to show long term for the effort besides what we learned while going and while there. I'm not discounting that knowledge, but it seemed little enough for the effort, and hardly tangible progress toward colonization or even exploitation of Space and the vast resources out there.

@Smokin Joe

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Online Elderberry

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Re: Biden cancels Elon Musk's adventures in space
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2021, 12:56:00 am »
NASA Invites Public to Share Excitement of Agency’s SpaceX Crew-2 Mission

By Emily McLeod Sulkes
NASA's Kennedy Space Center

NASA invites the public to take part in virtual activities and events ahead of the agency’s SpaceX Crew-2 mission. Liftoff of the Crew Dragon spacecraft and Falcon 9 rocket with astronauts is targeted for no earlier than 6:11 a.m. EDT Thursday, April 22, from Launch Complex 39A at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-invites-public-to-share-excitement-of-agency-s-spacex-crew-2-mission