Our Perceptions of World War II

[starbuck_archer]

Since as far back as I can remember, there has been a certain "popular memory" of World War II in the United States: Outnumbered and outmatched by a technologically superior German Army or Japanese Navy, the scrappy Allies unite to achieve a victory "against the odds" for freedom around the world.

While the last phrase about destroying an evil for the good of humanity is true, the idea that the German Reich or Imperial Japan ever stood a snowflake's chance in hell of winning World War II is where things get mixed up: at no point after Winston Churchill was made PM could Germany have won, and at no point after Pearl Harbor could Japan have won.  (This is assuming no implausible scenarios about Churchill surrendering or the US agreeing to a negotiated peace with Japan that let them keep Manchuria).

At least two individual states, Texas, California and I believe a few others produced more than the total Axis oil production individually.  The USA produced Japan's annual oil consumption every twelve hours.

Tanks don't roll, ship's don't steam and airplanes don't fly without fuel.  Germany was in a fuel crisis as early as 1941, and actually considered reducing its number of motorized divisions from 10 to (i believe) 6 due to lack of fuel, and this was after the Battle of France where the German armored/motorized arm of the Wehrmacht shined brightest.  The Romanian Oil fields could only produce about half of German/Italian oil needs, including civilian requirements for the occupation of France.  On oil alone, the Axis didn't stand a chance.

There is often a perception that the US went for "quality over quantity".  This is also not true.  Not only did the Allies produce more tanks and field more men than the Axis, but they produced higher quality troops: By the end of the war, the US was fielding more pilots with over 400 flight hours of training than Japan or Germany could field pilots with only 200 or less flight hours.  In effect, the US had so many resources and personnel, it could achieve both quality and quantity.

The second perception is that the US "saved" Europe from the Nazis.  This is not true, however this point has often been taken by pro-Soviet historians to claim that it was the "great Communist USSR" that "liberated" Europe (yeah, because life in East Germany was so great).

It is true that the USSR did the bulk of the heavy lifting in Europe: The much celebrated Operation Overlord only inflicted about 250,000 casualties on the Germans.  However, the less well known Operation Bagration inflicted half a million German casualties on the Eastern Front around the same time.

However, the same cannot be said about Japan, or the Pacific Theater.  In fact, the Soviet Union was in a non-aggression pact with Japan since the Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939.  After Pearl Harbor, it was the US that would throw huge forces into the Pacific, capture most of the "Co-Prosperity Sphere" and bomb Tokyo to cinders.  No matter how successful Chaing Kai Shek was in mainland China, it is very unlikely he could ever have inflicted an equivalent level of damage: the entire Japanese navy out of action, their entire Southeast Asian holdings lost...all while the US was also projecting major forces in the Atlantic, North Africa, Italy and France.  No other nation in WWII, with the possible exception of Britain, could have projected so much power to two "more than opposite" ends of the globe.

In short, it wasn't the superiority of the Allied General, Admiral or fighting man that won the war.  It was two things: first, our absolute material and personnel superiority over the Axis.  With the US, Great Britain and Soviet Union allied, it was essentially an invincible alliance.  Secondly, it was the willingness of the democracies of the world to wholly reject the ideals of Socialist Germany and Imperial Japan and actually be willing to throw those massive resources into such an effort.

And by the way, China has a massive advantage over is in population: over 1 billion to 340 million.  Their oil reserves are only slightly less than our own, and they have more factories and shipyards than we do.  Every single advantage we held in WWII is either neutralized (oil, being roughly equal) or China has the advantage.

[dfwgator]

Now you have the Crazy Left actually defending the Japanese,  and saying all they wanted to do was expel the Western Colonialists from Asia.

[starbuck_archer]

I have noted this trend as well.  I promptly remind them of Nanking, the comfort women of Korea (pretty much a real, actual rape culture) and all the war crimes committed in the Phillipenes etc...

Also, I remind them of Aung San, a Burmese anticolonialist who initially welcomed the Japanese into Burma, but by the end of the war had sided with the British and was asking for the British Empire to come back because Japanese rule was so harsh.

[skeeter]

Now you have the Crazy Left actually defending the Japanese,  and saying all they wanted to do was expel the Western Colonialists from Asia.

The part the leftwing revisionists seldom mention is the Japanese had no intention of liberating Asia,  they simply wanted to replace whitey.

[starbuck_archer]

That is absolutely the case: Imperial Japan, after her victories against China and Russia, was out to create their own Empire and replace European Colonialism with Japanese Fascist Colonialism.

This is ironic: Burma was already on the road to Dominion status within the British Empire (which was a large amount of autonomy) and already had native Burmese in high government Cabinet positions (not exactly the trademark of an evil "white supremacist" colonial power, which Britain was not).  Further, the Philipenes in the late 1930s were actually worried that the US would grant Independence too soon, because they knew as soon as the US left, the Japanese would arrive.

[Absalom]

Since as far back as I can remember, there has been a certain "popular memory" of World War II in the United States: Outnumbered and outmatched by a technologically superior German Army or Japanese Navy, the scrappy Allies unite to achieve a victory "against the odds" for freedom around the world.
The idea that the German Reich or Imperial Japan ever stood a snowflake's chance in hell of winning World War II is where things get mixed up: at no point after Winston Churchill was made PM could Germany have won, and at no point after Pearl Harbor could Japan have won.

-------------------------
So Winston Churchill's Premiership prevented Germany from winning in WW2?
Hmm..................so lets evaluate Churchill's strategic and tactical vision in his past.
Before the Great War, Churchill was First Lord of the British Admiralty while
Sir John Fisher remained the First Sea Lord.
Churchill strongly promoted, then activated a plan to attack the Ottoman Empire
at Gallipoli on the Dardanelles Peninsula; the objective being to cripple the Turks,
driving them out of the war and relieving pressure on Russian Forces in the Crimea.
The assault commenced in 1915 and was an unmitigated disaster inflicting some 250,000 casualties oh the Allies, principally British, Australian and New Zealand infantry;
followed by an ignominious retreat by British Land and Naval Forces in 1916.
A War Commission appointed to assess the tragedy concluded the following:
* the Gallipoli Campaign was very poorly planned and executed.
* severe difficulties with enemy terrain were ignored and underestimated.
* chronic shortages of medical supplies and munitions persisted thru the campaign.
* leadership procrastination and timidity at critical stages was never corrected.
As a consequence, Churchill was dismissed by Parliament; resurfacing in the late 30ties.
So how did Churchill's leadership prevent German victory in WW2?????

[Wingnut]

I bought a Toyota.  We won the battle but the Japs won the war.

[Hoodat]

The biggest Axis mistake of WWII was the decision by Japan to attack the United States.  If they had attacked the Soviet Union instead, Moscow would have fallen in 1941, and they would have won.

[jafo2010]

I disagree on that.  In my humble opinion, the greatest mistake of WWII was made by Adolph Hitler.  After the Pearl Harbor attack, Hitler declared war on the USA on December 10th.  Had he not done that, FDR would have been forced to concentrate USA efforts on the Pacific, leaving Europe to their own devices. 

When he declared war, his key generals knew they were defeated. 

[Hoodat]

I bought a Toyota.  We won the battle but the Japs won the war.

I bought two Toyota, both manufactured in the US.  Japanese manufacturers embraced automation while US unions rejected it.  Which is why foreign-owned plants in the US continue to thrive.

[skeeter]

I disagree on that.  In my humble opinion, the greatest mistake of WWII was made by Adolph Hitler.  After the Pearl Harbor attack, Hitler declared war on the USA on December 10th.  Had he not done that, FDR would have been forced to concentrate USA efforts on the Pacific, leaving Europe to their own devices. 

When he declared war, his key generals knew they were defeated.

The greatest mistake of WWII was 'Dolph starting the damn thing in the first place. He had already revived the German economy, restored her to equality among the powers and had largely re-united Germanic peoples without firing a shot. He probably could have enlisted Poland as an ally against the Soviets instead of attacking it.

Of course all of this leaves out the fact the man was mad.

In the east Japan was imitating (or preceding) Germany's folly first by attacking China, then by invading SE Asia prior to attacking a nation 10 time stronger than she. If Japan had stopped after invading Manchuria she'd probably still be there but no. And the warlords of Japan cannot claim insanity.

[Absalom]

............China has a massive advantage over us in population: over 1 billion to 340 million.  Their oil reserves are only slightly less than our own and they have more factories and shipyards than we do.  Every single advantage we held in WWII is either neutralized (oil, being roughly equal) or China has the advantage.

----------------------------------
What the hell are you blathering on about?
* So population size is definitive, is it?
In 331 BC. the Persians, under Darius, confronted Alexander at Gaugamela, Mesopotamia
outnumbering him by some 5 to 1. After 20 hours, Darius was hanging from a tree and the
Persian Empire shattered. So much for size!
* China burns coal and wood as they are w/o petrochemical sourced energy.

[DefiantMassRINO]

I see Chinese emigrating to America.  I don't see Americans emigrating to PRC.

[Sled Dog]

The biggest Axis mistake of WWII was the decision by Japan to attack the United States.  If they had attacked the Soviet Union instead, Moscow would have fallen in 1941, and they would have won.

Japan had no reason to attack the Soviet Union, and until Operation Barbarossa, the Soviet Union was besties with Hitler, and through him, Japan.

The Soviets remained a non-issue to the Japanese until the last month of the war.

The United States, on the other hand, shut down sales of scrap metal and energy to the Japanese in response to their attack on China that led to the sinking of the USS Panay, a flag-bearing river boat.

The United States had bases in the Philipines, bases that were going to interfere with Japan's goal of capturing oil resources in the West Pacific, along with Britain.

And the United States looked like an easy mark to knock off.   We'd been resisting the war all along, a very sensible idea, since Europe's problems weren't our problems.

Their biggest mistake was in starting the war with China in the first place, and they made an equally large blunder by attacking Pearl Harbor.  The US did not want to get into the wars, and would have resisted strongly...then the surprise attack on Pearl.   US mood changed over night.

We declared war on Japan, ignored Germany.   

[Sled Dog]

I see Chinese emigrating to America.  I don't see Americans emigrating to PRC.

They don't have to.

"China is here now, Mr. Burton." - Big Trouble In Little China.

I'm betting the Chinese Communist Party doesn't employ Americans to drive their cars or wax their poles, like the Rodents in America do.

[sneakypete]

I see Chinese emigrating to America.  I don't see Americans emigrating to PRC.

@DefiantMassRINO

Can you say "Agents"?

And while they are not truly "immigrating" to China,I do know several people who have signed multi-year contracts to move to China to show them how to set up factories and manufacture goods they can sell on international markets cheaper than western goods because in effect,they use slave labor.

I know one guy that sold everything he owned to move to China to help them replicate the US factory he had worked in for 20 years. They had bought the factory and all the rights that went along with it,and were replicating it in China and needed US supervisors to teach them how it works. Can't remember if it was a 3 year or a 5 year contract he got at this point in time,but I do remember it included free housing,transportation,etc,etc,etc,plus more money that he was actually making at home as management in the US factory.

Remember,the "Golden Rule" in the US is now,"BLEEP YOU,ME FIRST!"

[Sled Dog]

Things the US did that our enemies did not:

We took our experienced pilots and made them flight instructors so the pilots coming out of school became progressively better pilots.

Japan took their best pilots ...well, they didn't take them anywhere, they left them on the front lines until they died, no transmission of knowledge.

The enemy preached "total war".  The US practiced it.   

Japan did not understand the function of the submarine in naval strategy, the US did.   The submarine more than any other weapon except crypto, choked the Japanese war machine.

We broke the Japanese code.   They could not break the Navajo language. 

We were really pissed, they were not.  They were arrogant without substance, and wrote checks their national body could not cash.

They didn't have the resources to fight three major enemies at once, China, the UK and the USA.    The USA did.   

Remember, Hitler pushed the Japanese to attack the US because the US was already fighting a war against Germany in the Atlantic and Hitler wanted some relief, or at least a good excuse to openly attack the US.   The stupidest move the Axis made was getting the US involved militarily.

The only other stupid thing the Axis could have done is to have left the US alone to sell an infinite amount of war materiel to England  without consequence.

Hitler started the war because, after Munich and all the other gutless acts of appeasement by the French and British, he felt that stealing Poland would have just been another international incident to be shrugged off.    Germany was not ready to fight a long war, and that was even before he made the idiot mistake of attacking Russia for no good reason at all.

Prior to Pearl Harbor the best scenario for the US was to allow Germany to romp in Europe and to let Hitler and Stalin play dictator-to-dictator and wear themselves out.   

[Smokin Joe]

The part the leftwing revisionists seldom mention is the Japanese had no intention of liberating Asia,  they simply wanted to replace whitey.

Actually, they went beyond mere exploitation, and went to slavery, mass murder, and rape, on a whim.

Oh, and taking the resources, too.

But both had a limited amount of time to gather the resources they needed to continue to wage war. Oil assets in the far east and in the Caucuses were there for the taking, IF the armies could move fast enough to seize them. Hitler got sidetracked at Stalingrad, where the Soviet resistance to Paulus' army eventually led to their surrender--and the oilfields of Baku were out of reach from then on. The Japanese made the critical mistake of attacking Pearl Harbor, while a tactical victory, failed in the attack to destroy the shipyards and the Carriers, and brought America into the war, leading to their defeat.  Had Hitler not violated the nonaggression pact with Stalin, his chances of victory would have been significantly greater, and the Soviets could have been attacked at his leisure (without American aid) after consolidating his Western European conquest.

They had good hands at the start of the game, but they played their cards wrong.

[Smokin Joe]

----------------------------------
What the hell are you blathering on about?
* So population size is definitive, is it?
In 331 BC. the Persians, under Darius, confronted Alexander at Gaugamela, Mesopotamia
outnumbering him by some 5 to 1. After 20 hours, Darius was hanging from a tree and the
Persian Empire shattered. So much for size!
* China burns coal and wood as they are w/o petrochemical sourced energy.

Better check your numbers, there. China is the world's 4th largest oil producer, pumping some 4.9 million BOPD. Coal is better suited for some uses than oil which is primarily a motor fuel and feedstock for chemical industries. With their population, coal and wood are readily available and useful fuels for everything from cooking and heating to power generation, and they don't really care about the pollution aspect as much as industrial superiority (production).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_China 

The biggest reason for the conflict over the Spratleys isn't just hegemony, it's the belief that there are substantial offshore oil reserves in the South China Sea.

Yes, they import a lot, but also have one of the highest strategic petroleum reserves in the world.

[Hoodat]

The greatest German defeat of the entire war, even bigger than Stalingrad, was the Battle of Dunkirk.

[skeeter]

Japan had no reason to attack the Soviet Union, and until Operation Barbarossa, the Soviet Union was besties with Hitler, and through him, Japan.

The Soviets remained a non-issue to the Japanese until the last month of the war.

The United States, on the other hand, shut down sales of scrap metal and energy to the Japanese in response to their attack on China that led to the sinking of the USS Panay, a flag-bearing river boat.

The United States had bases in the Philipines, bases that were going to interfere with Japan's goal of capturing oil resources in the West Pacific, along with Britain.

And the United States looked like an easy mark to knock off.   We'd been resisting the war all along, a very sensible idea, since Europe's problems weren't our problems.

Their biggest mistake was in starting the war with China in the first place, and they made an equally large blunder by attacking Pearl Harbor.  The US did not want to get into the wars, and would have resisted strongly...then the surprise attack on Pearl.   US mood changed over night.

We declared war on Japan, ignored Germany.

The Japanese Army considered the Soviets their primary enemy from about 1900 onward, 'cause they had their own desire for Lebensraum, which would eventually bring them into close contact.

In fact this came to a head in 1940 in Mongolia, when a small cavalry action escalated into a hot war for a few months during which the Japanese had their arses handed to them.

The little known Battle of Kolkhin Gol, as it was called, was immense in its implications, because it discredited the Imperial Army and handed the Imperial Navy policy making initiative, which meant the Japanese military soon committed themselves to the so called 'Southern Strategy' (the navy needed SE Asian oil above all else) which in turn brought them into conflict with the west via their colonies, hence to Pearl Harbor.

[dfwgator]

The little known Battle of Kolkhin Gol, as it was called, was immense in its implications, because it discredited the Imperial Army and handed the Imperial Navy policy making initiative, which meant the Japanese military soon committed themselves to the so called 'Southern Strategy' (the navy needed SE Asian oil above all else) which in turn brought them into conflict with the west via their colonies, hence to Pearl Harbor.

It also lead to the rise of Zhukov.

[bigheadfred]

Seeking raw materials to fuel its growing industries, Japan invaded the Chinese province of Manchuria in 1931. By 1937 Japan controlled large sections of China, and accusations of war crimes against the Chinese became commonplace.

WWII started way before we were involved. We just ended it.

[skeeter]

Actually, they went beyond mere exploitation, and went to slavery, mass murder, and rape, on a whim.

Oh, and taking the resources, too.

But both had a limited amount of time to gather the resources they needed to continue to wage war. Oil assets in the far east and in the Caucuses were there for the taking, IF the armies could move fast enough to seize them. Hitler got sidetracked at Stalingrad, where the Soviet resistance to Paulus' army eventually led to their surrender--and the oilfields of Baku were out of reach from then on. The Japanese made the critical mistake of attacking Pearl Harbor, while a tactical victory, failed in the attack to destroy the shipyards and the Carriers, and brought America into the war, leading to their defeat.  Had Hitler not violated the nonaggression pact with Stalin, his chances of victory would have been significantly greater, and the Soviets could have been attacked at his leisure (without American aid) after consolidating his Western European conquest.

They had good hands at the start of the game, but they played their cards wrong.

The Japanese during WWII enjoyed the same national strengths and suffered from the same weaknesses we can still see in them today, at least IMO - they mastered tactics and so became second to none in planning and execution, but afterwards could not adjust to changing conditions in time to prevent themselves from being overwhelmed by an innovative enemy who 'thought outside the box'.

This may be a bit unfair as the issue of the Pacific was was never for a minute in doubt - we just overwhelmed them materially.

[skeeter]

It also lead to the rise of Zhukov.

Yep. The Japanese received an early primer in the proper use of armor.