Our Perceptions of World War II

[HoustonSam]

The Japanese Army considered the Soviets their primary enemy from about 1900 onward, 'cause they had their own desire for Lebensraum, which would eventually bring them into close contact.

In fact this came to a head in 1940 in Mongolia, when a small cavalry action escalated into a hot war for a few months during which the Japanese had their arses handed to them.

The little known Battle of Kolkhin Gol, as it was called, was immense in its implications, because it discredited the Imperial Army and handed the Imperial Navy policy making initiative, which meant the Japanese military soon committed themselves to the so called 'Southern Strategy' (the navy needed SE Asian oil above all else) which in turn brought them into conflict with the west via their colonies, hence to Pearl Harbor.

Thanks for sharing this @skeeter.  I did not know about Kolkhin Gol or its later implications; I appreciate the insight you've shared here.

[skeeter]

Thanks for sharing this @skeeter.  I did not know about Kolkhin Gol or its later implications; I appreciate the insight you've shared here.

My pleasure, Sam. Its one of the two or three subjects I've bother to dig into!

[sneakypete]

The Japanese Army considered the Soviets their primary enemy from about 1900 onward, 'cause they had their own desire for Lebensraum, which would eventually bring them into close contact.

In fact this came to a head in 1940 in Mongolia, when a small cavalry action escalated into a hot war for a few months during which the Japanese had their arses handed to them.

 

@skeeter

Guess who lent the Imperial Japanese government the money to build their Navy that the used to destroy the Russian fleet at the outbreak of the war of 1905.

If you guessed a certain Jewish refugee from Czarist Russia named Schiff that fled to the US with enough assets to start his own bank here like his family had held in Russian,and then LEND the IPN enough money to rebuild their Navy so they could defeat the Russians,you would be correct.

One of his spawn married one of Goober Gore's daughters several years ago.

Funny how things like that work out,huh?

[skeeter]

@skeeter

Guess who lent the Imperial Japanese government the money to build their Navy that the used to destroy the Russian fleet at the outbreak of the war of 1905.

If you guessed a certain Jewish refugee from Czarist Russia named Schiff that fled to the US with enough assets to start his own bank here like his family had held in Russian,and then LEND the IPN enough money to rebuild their Navy so they could defeat the Russians,you would be correct.

One of his spawn married one of Goober Gore's daughters several years ago.

Funny how thinks like that work out,huh?

This I did not know but it does not surprise me in the least that old money like this is sniffed out by todays parasitic ruling class.

I do know the IJN considered the British navy their big brother all the way up until the time they attacked them at Singapore.

[sneakypete]

This I did not know but it does not surprise me in the least.

I do know the IJN considered the British navy their big brother all the way up until the time they attacked them at Singapore.

@skeeter

When they married,the press identified him as a medical doctor,which he is,but they failed to identify that he was also an international banker from a banking family dating back to the Middle Ages.

Think about THIS for a minute. The Commies seized all his capital assets and chased him out of Russia ahead of arrest,and he STILL managed to leave Russia with enough cash and other assets to open his own international bank in NYC when he got here,and enough money to lend to Japan to rebuild their entire freaking Navy.

And this was back when you could buy a nice new house for a thousand bucks.

[Smokin Joe]

The Japanese during WWII enjoyed the same national strengths and suffered from the same weaknesses we can still see in them today, at least IMO - they mastered tactics and so became second to none in planning and execution, but afterwards could not adjust to changing conditions in time to prevent themselves from being overwhelmed by an innovative enemy who 'thought outside the box'.

This may be a bit unfair as the issue of the Pacific was was never for a minute in doubt - we just overwhelmed them materially.

Had they left our Pacific Fleet alone, there is a chance that they could have secured many of the resources they needed before we entered the war. We needed an excuse, and they provided it.

[skeeter]

Had they left our Pacific Fleet alone, there is a chance that they could have secured many of the resources they needed before we entered the war. We needed an excuse, and they provided it.

True. Roosevelt was worried Japan might bypass the Philippines entirely because polls showed the majority of Americans would not support an American war against Japan in support of the colonial powers' in Asian. Instead they obliged him by attacking American territory directly.

[Absalom]

The Japanese Army considered the Soviets their primary enemy from about 1900 onward...??????
----------------------
1n 1900, Nicholas Romanov was Czar of Russia and endured till 1917.
He was neither a Marxist nor a Soviet!!!
Beyond brainless!!!!!!!!

[sneakypete]

Had they left our Pacific Fleet alone, there is a chance that they could have secured many of the resources they needed before we entered the war. We needed an excuse, and they provided it.

@Smokin Joe

There are many people who think King Roosevelt ALLOWED the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor "by surprise" because he needed an excuse to go to war in Europe to help save communism.

I'm one of them.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe

There are many people who think King Roosevelt ALLOWED the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor "by surprise" because he needed an excuse to go to war in Europe to help save communism.

I'm one of them.

Actually, the more you dig, the more it looks like he "provoked" them with trade policy, even if that was just done to slow them down in their conquest of the Far East.  They were headed to Australia, next and that was a continent too far.

[sneakypete]

Actually, the more you dig, the more it looks like he "provoked" them with trade policy, even if that was just done to slow them down in their conquest of the Far East.  They were headed to Australia, next and that was a continent too far.

@Smokin Joe

Potato/Po tot toe. Same/same/.

FDR was a for a Aristocracy of Communism,and there was no room at the inn for little yellow people.

Remember,police states are only good if YOU are the head cop.

[skeeter]

@Smokin Joe

There are many people who think King Roosevelt ALLOWED the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor "by surprise" because he needed an excuse to go to war in Europe to help save communism.

I'm one of them.

I think so as well. In fact US naval intelligence knew the Japanese had mobilized and were going to strike almost down to the hour. Its just everyone thought they'd attack the Philippines, or one of the outer defensive ring of island bases. Attacking Pearl Harbor was a move only a very few anticipated. A few basic defensive measures were taken there, like dispersing the task forces, but those were just a matter of routine since war was considered imminent.

Proving the old saw about always preparing for what your enemy is capable of, not what you believe he'll do.

[Hoodat]

@Smokin Joe

There are many people who think King Roosevelt ALLOWED the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor "by surprise" because he needed an excuse to go to war in Europe to help save communism.

I'm one of them.

It is too much of a coincidence that there were no carriers at Pearl Harbor, with the Lexington sailing out just two days before the attack.  Even more striking is that the Soviet Union launched it's counterattack from Moscow with Zhukhov's Siberian troops on Dec 7.  Even Stalin knew.

[PeteS in CA]

Since as far back as I can remember, there has been a certain "popular memory" of World War II in the United States: Outnumbered and outmatched by a technologically superior German Army or Japanese Navy, the scrappy Allies unite to achieve a victory "against the odds" for freedom around the world.

I've never heard any of this "popular memory". Germany was easily outnumbered by the Russians, Brits, and Americans. Japan was easily outnumbered by the Americans, in population and industrial capacity.

Brit radar and fighter control was way beyond the Germans technologically. Later in the war, the wavelength of radar the Brits and Americans used to sink U-boats was short enough that the Germans at first didn't think that frequency could be usable.

Japan's industrial capacity vs. that of the US ... this webpage captures the mismatch rather well, http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm . US shipborne radar, by late 1942 and early 1943 was far superior to what the IJN had, and the USN coupled radar with gun fire control and fighter direction. At the start of the war, the Zeke and Oscar fighters were in some respects superior to US F4F and P-40 fighters, but with proper tactics US planes could hold their own. Japan never managed to get next generation fighters into volume production to fully replace the Zekes and Oscars, while the US largely replaced their F4Fs and P-40s with F6Fs, F4Us, and P-38s. At the start of the war, USN Yorktown class and IJN Shokaku class carriers were qualitative peers. The USN rolled out the next generation Essex class, which were even better and tougher, and did it in significant volume. Depending on how Taiho is viewed, the IJN never produced a next generation carrier, or never had their one sample get significant use. The Essexes buried the IJN, and the Midways were getting into the water when the war ended.

In the Pacific Theater the US was not literally alone, but other than in India and Burma UK participation was minimal, and Australia's contribution was proportional to its population and industrial capacity. China's contribution was significant, in terms of tying down IJA manpower, but the cost to China in territory, population, and eventually their freedom was between high and extreme.

[christian]

America produced the early days of submarines, iron ships, turreted guns on ships, advanced radar the axis could not well compete with, sonar that became so well developed(fm) that allied submarines could weave through mine fields-the axis had nothing like it.  America had a jet fighter before we even entered the war, and about and equal to the much bragged about Me-262.  America became so good at mass producing ships, many were built in meredays, and yet were tough to sink.  The British computer made defeating Germany and Japan evenmore inevitable.  High quality American fighters near the end of the war doomed Axis pilots who reported they felt like they were strapping into a coffin when they entered their aircraft.  American and Russian tanks way out numbered German tanks, and Japanese tanks we tin jokes, easily destroyed.  The Russians made some fighter aircraft superior to German aircraft, and the Russians overwhelmed the German troops who many had bolt action rifles, the Russians armed their soldiers with high capacity machinguns.  It was never a 'fair' fight,Yamamoto saw that before the war began with the usa.  His 6 months to a year prophesy was quite accurate.  Japanese aircrat carriers often sunk with in or two bomb hits, American carriers could survive two sinkings, but not three.  TheJapanese kept trying to sink carriers they already reported as sunk.  Americans built trucks and tanks that could swim and drive up onto beaches/land.  Napalm, tree burst artillery rounds, and proximity rounds devastating to enemy aircraft.  Mass production and a very large  educated working workforce. Some even pointout; God was on our side. It was never a 'fair' fight.  As for the poor victimized Japanese, Read up on the Rape of Nanking, severe and nasty massive atrocities, as the Japanese wanted to terrorize the Chinese.

[Free Vulcan]

Their biggest mistake was in starting the war with China in the first place, and they made an equally large blunder by attacking Pearl Harbor.  The US did not want to get into the wars, and would have resisted strongly...then the surprise attack on Pearl.   US mood changed over night.

We declared war on Japan, ignored Germany.

My Grandmother was 22 when the Japs attacked PH. She lived till 2015 at the age of 96. She worked in the Curtiss-Wright factory in St. Louis putting the wiring in the P-51's, because she was a master seamstress by training.

I visited her on PH day a couple of years before she passed. Asked her what was like like having been there.

She said right after it happened people were scared because they didn't know what the Japs had or where they would go next.

Then she got a really weird look in her eye, and all she said was: 'And the next day, we got mad.'

It was the look of the Japs being lucky we didn't wipe them off the map.

[Free Vulcan]

@Smokin Joe

There are many people who think King Roosevelt ALLOWED the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor "by surprise" because he needed an excuse to go to war in Europe to help save communism.

I'm one of them.

I don't think people realize how shady and ruthless FDR was.

Where do y'all think Bill Clinton got his moves?

[Free Vulcan]

One if the biggest blunders Germany also made was that they stopped tech research from around '41 to '44.

Germany had the best scientists in the world, and lots of them. They had tech that even today would be considered almost sci-fi.

Had they fully developed and deployed what they had - like jets - they would have lasted far longer. But they thought they had the war won early on and diverted resources from new weapons development.

Make no mistake - the reason everyone was racing to get to the Reich first had little to do with territory, it was all about the tech. And I believe it has shaped the world ever since in ways seen and unseen.

[sneakypete]

One if the biggest blunders Germany also made was that they stopped tech research from around '41 to '44.

Germany had the best scientists in the world, and lots of them. They had tech that even today would be considered almost sci-fi.

Had they fully developed and deployed what they had - like jets - they would have lasted far longer. But they thought they had the war won early on and diverted resources from new weapons development.

Make no mistake - the reason everyone was racing to get to the Reich first had little to do with territory, it was all about the tech. And I believe it has shaped the world ever since in ways seen and unseen.

@Free Vulcan

They did have jets. The ME-262,and it was a wonder at the time. They just didn't have enough to be effective thanks to the massive bomber raids on German factories.

They could have had them earlier in the war,but Hitler would rather spend the money on invading Russia and claiming her oil fields. I guess the Nazi's just thought that jet aircraft weren't necessary at that time,so they spent the money on other things.

[Hoodat]

Some of the things the US had going for them:

- Home-grown supply of raw materials including petroleum
- Huge industrial base
- An intact country free of bombing
- Overwhelming support for the war (thanks to Pearl Harbor)
- Ability to learn from our mistakes and adapt

When we entered the war, we were unprepared.  Germany's war declaration resulted in massive loss of shipping on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts.  Soldiers trained with wooden rifles.  The US landings in North Africa were filled with mistakes.  And our first major battle at Kasserine Pass was a disaster.  But from each of these we learned.

We developed new technology and tactics that turned the tide in the U-boat war.  Supply and logistics became a priority.  The success of the D-Day landings were built on the errors of Torch.  And tactical adjustments were made after our embarrassment at Kasserine Pass.

[Hoodat]

@Smokin Joe

There are many people who think King Roosevelt ALLOWED the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor "by surprise" because he needed an excuse to go to war in Europe to help save communism.

I'm one of them.

Me too.  Quite a coincidence that there were no carriers at Pearl at the time of the attack.  Not to mention that Stalin had pulled all his troops from Siberia, leaving the east defenseless against another Japanese incursion.

[Smokin Joe]

@Free Vulcan

They did have jets. The ME-262,and it was a wonder at the time. They just didn't have enough to be effective thanks to the massive bomber raids on German factories.

They could have had them earlier in the war,but Hitler would rather spend the money on invading Russia and claiming her oil fields. I guess the Nazi's just thought that jet aircraft weren't necessary at that time,so they spent the money on other things.

Hitler stepped in and wanted the Me 262 set up as a fighter/bomber. Otherwise, they could have been in the air in significant numbers long before they were. Had Hitler not been making top level decisions, there is a chance that Germany could have succeeded. The Me 262 and the invasion of Russia were two such screw ups, as was the shifting from airfields to civilian targets during the Battle of Britain. If he had kept bombing airfields, he might have been able to maintain air superiority and invade the British Isles. It would have been a different war., especially with Stalin on the sidelines.

[Wingnut]

She said right after it happened people were scared because they didn't know what the Japs had or where they would go next.

Then she got a really weird look in her eye, and all she said was: 'And the next day, we got mad.'

It was the look of the Japs being lucky we didn't wipe them off the map.

Yup that is how it use to be.  Like after 9/11.  A collective pissed of America is an unstoppable force.   Well it use to be anyway.  With the scum and villainy that live today all bets are off.

[Free Vulcan]

Hitler stepped in and wanted the Me 262 set up as a fighter/bomber. Otherwise, they could have been in the air in significant numbers long before they were. Had Hitler not been making top level decisions, there is a chance that Germany could have succeeded. The Me 262 and the invasion of Russia were two such screw ups, as was the shifting from airfields to civilian targets during the Battle of Britain. If he had kept bombing airfields, he might have been able to maintain air superiority and invade the British Isles. It would have been a different war., especially with Stalin on the sidelines.

Hitler was our best asset. The guy was an idiot from day one. He put on a good show, but look past all the razzmatazz and fireworks and the guy's military thinking was a clown show.

It was his Prussian officers that kept the war going on as long as they did.