Author Topic: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!  (Read 4398 times)

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2020, 06:17:18 am »
@Right_in_Virginia

Yes, I have defined them - to you - more than once. So I am not going to do it again to no good end... I will summarize, but it is up to you to flesh it out. Look up fiscal conservatism, look up right-wing libertarianism, and look up defense/foreign policy conservatism. Look up Conservative Judeo-Christianity.

I would like nothing better than a serious discussion on these grounds. These pages on this board should be filled with this information. Because this IS the Conservative Coalition we are talking about -

Just a passing thought @roamer_1   Conservatives have a perception problem -- that their attitude sucks.  They've long come across as judgmental know-it-alls without the willingness to mingle with the great unwashed, never mind engage with them in a conversation (circa WFB, Jr.).  It's why 95% of conservative political candidates are repellant to so many American voters.   Unfair?  Maybe.  But conservatives need a "come to Jesus" conversation about this  --- and how to fix it.

For instance, I asked a serious question, in a collegial way, and you respond by painting me as someone who has not paid attention to your wisdom and point me to reading material.  While I might take your advice and do a little research, few other voters will --- and this is the fundamental reason why you lose elections before the campaign begins.  You can dismiss this if you choose; but I wouldn't recommend it if you're serious about building a conservative groundswell.

I asked the question because while there's been much "debate" on fiscal conservative policy, there's been talk of little else falling under the umbrella of "conservative principles".  There's been now and again reference to "Judeo-Christianity", but without an explanation of where it fits in conservative politics.  For example, can secular voters mingle with principled conservatives?  Is Judeo-Christianity a litmus test?  Remember, folks tend to shy away from an obvious and blatant comingling of God and political representatives.  That "separations thing" --- so often misunderstood --- has, none-the-less, really taken hold.

You should be prepared to describe what the country will look like and act like under conservative leadership. Where is the conservative focus --- the church? the boardroom?  the war room? the kitchen table?  the bedroom?

Reagan summed up his vision for America with:  "Make America Great Again"; so does Trump.  President Trump further refines his worldview to two words:  "America First". 

What's the tagline for the principled conservative vision of 21st Century America, Roamer?   You need one because the country wants to know the America you're proposing --- and in politics there is no time for seminars and homework assignments.

I am sincerely interested in your response. 

Thanks.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #101 on: December 30, 2020, 06:44:16 am »
Just a passing thought @roamer_1   Conservatives have a perception problem -- that their attitude sucks.  They've long come across as judgmental know-it-alls without the willingness to mingle with the great unwashed, never mind engage with them in a conversation (circa WFB, Jr.).  It's why 95% of conservative political candidates are repellant to so many American voters.   Unfair?  Maybe.  But conservatives need a "come to Jesus" conversation about this  --- and how to fix it.

For instance, I asked a serious question, in a collegial way, and you respond by painting me as someone who has not paid attention to your wisdom and point me to reading material.  While I might take your advice and do a little research, few other voters will --- and this is the fundamental reason why you lose elections before the campaign begins.  You can dismiss this if you choose; but I wouldn't recommend it if you're serious about building a conservative groundswell.

I asked the question because while there's been much "debate" on fiscal conservative policy, there's been talk of little else falling under the umbrella of "conservative principles".  There's been now and again reference to "Judeo-Christianity", but without an explanation of where it fits in conservative politics.  For example, can secular voters mingle with principled conservatives?  Is Judeo-Christianity a litmus test?  Remember, folks tend to shy away from an obvious and blatant comingling of God and political representatives.  That "separations thing" --- so often misunderstood --- has, none-the-less, really taken hold.

You should be prepared to describe what the country will look like and act like under conservative leadership. Where is the conservative focus --- the church? the boardroom?  the war room? the kitchen table?  the bedroom?

Reagan summed up his vision for America with:  "Make America Great Again"; so does Trump.  President Trump further refines his worldview to two words:  "America First". 

What's the tagline for the principled conservative vision of 21st Century America, Roamer?   You need one because the country wants to know the America you're proposing --- and in politics there is no time for seminars and homework assignments.

I am sincerely interested in your response. 

Thanks.

@Right_in_Virginia

Excellent post!

I can only add an emotional aspect to what you wrote.

In MY NSHO,the biggest hurdle conservatism has to leap over is the general,and CORRECT,assumption that we are too dogmatic in our approach to everything,and tend to take a "one size fits all" approach to anything and everything anyone wants to mention.

It's awful hard to fight that image and  attract new and younger voters to our cause because of it. For example,welfare is a kneejerk word to the left,the right,and anything political in between the two. Maybe even in other solar systems.

The radical left seems to want the whole damn world on welfare,and the radical right seems to take the "let the bastards starve to death in the streets if they are not willing to work for their living!" approach.

I think both sides are wrong. I am against the whole concept of "welfare as a way of life" for both economic as well as "spritiual" reasons,and I do NOT mean "spiritual" in the religious sense. I mean "spiritual" in the sense that young people who grow up in welfare families and think of it as a normal way of life that is acceptable never develop the opportunity to develop their personal spirit by celebrating their successes. They HAVE no successes. The government is literally stealing their spirits and making them slaves to the government.

I see welfare as a mixed blessing. It is a burden on both the taxpayers  AS WELL AS THE PEOPLE WHO SPEND THEIR ENTIRE LIVES living on it. They will never know the joy of the self-satisfaction they would get as a result of their personal efforts and hard work. What they WILL "know" is that if Uncle Sugar stops the checks,they are going to starve to death while homeless and wandering the streets.

The most damage is done to the children who grow up thinking that is a normal life and they are "getting over" by not having to work. That is cheating them out of one of life's greatest joys.
 
On the other hand,people like my father were at the other extreme. He had a 2rd grade education from having to quit school when he was 8 and go to work in a local shipyard to help his mother feed him and his 7 brothers and sisters after his father died. There was no such thing as AFDC,Food Stamps,or anything else back then.

When I was a similar age,there was a recession in Am.
He was as serious as a heart attack about this,too. This is a man I watched get on his knees in the bathtub one Sunday morning and pull 4 of his own teeth with no pain pills,using channel lock pliers. He did this because he didn't want to miss work on Monday to go to the dentist,and they were hurting him so much he couldn't even sleep.

My mother managed to talk him down,and as it happened,he did find another job a week or so later. It didn't pay as much as he was used to getting,but it paid enough to keep us from starving and becoming homeless.

There MUST be a balance between these two extremes,but nobody on either side seems to want to compromise even the tiniest bit. If you are a conservative and say "Welfare and food stamps are good things.",your  best friends want to tar and feather you.

On the other hand,if you are a leftie and say something like "We MUST teach our children that living off of welfare and other government benefits is NOT a positive thing. It may well be a NECESSARY thing for a period of time,but people need to get off of government aid and become self-sufficient as soon as possible. It would be a positive thing for them as it would raise their self-esteem and make them proud of themselves."

Any leftie that says that out loud is liable to get beaten to death.

We all spend too much time talking AROUND each other instead of talking TO each other. We all,and I am probably guiltier than most on this one,get caught up in the emotion and "rightness of our cause",and dig in and just do not want to hear anything contrary to our own positions.

This has to change.

BTW,I still want to hang all the evil bastards trying to destroy the American Way of Life. Just wanted to make that clear.



« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 06:50:38 am by sneakypete »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Online roamer_1

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #102 on: December 30, 2020, 07:42:23 am »
Just a passing thought @roamer_1   Conservatives have a perception problem -- that their attitude sucks.  They've long come across as judgmental know-it-alls without the willingness to mingle with the great unwashed, never mind engage with them in a conversation (circa WFB, Jr.).  It's why 95% of conservative political candidates are repellant to so many American voters.   Unfair?  Maybe.  But conservatives need a "come to Jesus" conversation about this  --- and how to fix it.

@Right_in_Virginia

Now, before I go off... I know this could be taken as me speaking sharply. Me trying to talk to you is akin to picking up a mad cat - There ain't nothing for it but to put on a leather glove and grab on hard. So please understand I mean you no personal offense. I have happily clanked a beer or two with you of late, and I do mean to preserve that. I am merely being... blunt... in forthrightness. Forgive me that.

See, I think it is just two kinds - I find conservative candidates to be quite engaging - And I find your boy Tumpy to be a waste of air. I literally don't listen to him, ever. I don't think I have spent an hour listening to him in the whole of four years... And most of that partial at best - I always get about 2 minutes in and have to shut it off.  I find HIM to be pompous and insincere. He struck me as a con from the get-go and phony as they come.

You like the show - I do not. And I never will. If I come across 'holier than thou' (though I would say the very same about you, frankly), I really don't care. I speak the truth as I know it, free from guile and without allegiances to any other. I know it's right, and the truth will out... Whereupon I will then be accused of 'I toldja sos' - Even though I do very little of that. So there is no percentage in me teaching or preaching (however you care to see it) without the other being willing to hear. Very much the same as you trying to teach/preach about the importance of popularity, which means absolutely nothing to me. And never will, by the way.

But to be sure - I am not holier than thou - Indeed i consider myself to be of a low nature - a sinner - and a man of unhealthy obsessions. My only wisdom is that I know that... And know what has saved me. Salvation means most to him that needs it most - And that'd be me.

Quote
For instance, I asked a serious question, in a collegial way, and you respond by painting me as someone who has not paid attention to your wisdom and point me to reading material.  While I might take your advice and do a little research, few other voters will --- and this is the fundamental reason why you lose elections before the campaign begins.  You can dismiss this if you choose; but I wouldn't recommend it if you're serious about building a conservative groundswell.

This is a fair problem and requires more than I can put in a single missive. Perhaps a 'What is Conservatism' series hosted here on this board with stalwarts form the various factions providing their views... I would consider heading that up. But again, that does not seem to be the direction of things here. Deep thinking and definitions I mean. This place twizzles off into gossip and tub-thumping instead, and I don't know if the effort would be appreciated. And no offense meant in that. It seems y'all would rather stand for princes than for principles. And I just will never be that way.

Quote
I asked the question because while there's been much "debate" on fiscal conservative policy, there's been talk of little else falling under the umbrella of "conservative principles". 

In fact, I spend far more time in social conservatism and civil libertarianism. Though I tend to be conversant with all of the factional principles. Defense and Foreign Policy conservatism would be my weakness. But I tend to speak on all aspects and in all factions. Perhaps it would be a case of you not hearing me except in fiscal conservatism because that was the undeniable and indefensible weakness in Tumpy. Conservatism within the coalition is about not throwing anyone under the bus - And while I could be critical in many ways - there is no one that can deny it - Tumpy threw the fiscal conservatives under the bus. Period.

Quote
There's been now and again reference to "Judeo-Christianity", but without an explanation of where it fits in conservative politics.  For example, can secular voters mingle with principled conservatives?  Is Judeo-Christianity a litmus test?  Remember, folks tend to shy away from an obvious and blatant comingling of God and political representatives.  That "separations thing" --- so often misunderstood --- has, none-the-less, really taken hold.

I have often said that a proper conservative conscience has civil libertarianism and the Judeo-Christian Ethic in friendly disagreement. Each polices the other. Civil libertarianism with no moral prism results in anarchy, and The Christian Right, with it's penchant toward a welfare state, is prevented from a theocracy, or chasing after socialism (See Huckabee) by libertarian principles.

The Judeo-Christian Ethic is the built-in American sense of right and wrong. It is the moral ethos, the prism through which our laws and principles are defined as written. Seen through a secular prism, or a Mohammedan one, those things look different and have different value. And I will give you one sure thing: There is no moral neutral. In the words of Bob Dylan, 'You've Got To Serve Somebody' Remove that ethic, and it will be replaced by another. That is the other thing: There is no moral vacuum either.

That ethic, for wont of a better description is what is preserved by the Christian Right. That winnows down into 'things' like abortion and homo marriage, and etc - But it is derived from that ethic.

Quote
You should be prepared to describe what the country will look like and act like under conservative leadership. Where is the conservative focus --- the church? the boardroom?  the war room? the kitchen table?  the bedroom?

There is no focus - In the broader sense of Kirk and Burke, Conservatism is a way of life - What we are discussing here is just American Conservatism as it touches politics. The interface of political factions as they form a coalition.

Quote
Reagan summed up his vision for America with:  "Make America Great Again"; so does Trump.  President Trump further refines his worldview to two words:  "America First". 

What's the tagline for the principled conservative vision of 21st Century America, Roamer?   You need one because the country wants to know the America you're proposing --- and in politics there is no time for seminars and homework assignments.

I consider that to be a fault, not of conservatism, but rather of the American main stream media and those who follow it. Funny isn't it, that the most widely renown news is found in the intellectual dark web - A long form factor without catchy slogans and phony 240 character tirades with people shouting over each other. I deny your premise. I think people hunger for truth. I think they will happily entertain dissection of issues. Else why Shapiro and Rubin and Petersen? The best and most popular work Glen Beck ever did was his in depth essays, often across many hour long shows.

Just because some are twitterpated, does not mean that all are, or even near a majority.

Quote
I am sincerely interested in your response. 

Thanks.

Your welcome - I hope my answers were sufficient.

Offline dancer

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2020, 09:39:56 am »
@catfish1957

Yeah,what the hell? Why not allow hundreds of thousands of Americans to lose their homes and their cars in the dead of winter,or get evicted from their rental homes when you have a political principle you are ready to climb a hill and die for?

These are REAL people with REAL families,and no President gets to pick and choose which gets cut and which goes forward for signing. Congress does that,and the Presidents take the blame.
Some don't seem to get the dire straights many are suffering.  I guess if you don't need help, it's easy to throw the hurting under the bus.  Through no fault of their own, they can't feed their families or pay their mortgage.

Offline dancer

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2020, 09:43:14 am »
if we need someone to blame, blame the statists who foisted this Covid BS on society simply to enhance their own power & authority. Don’t blame those who have been trying to get past it.
:amen:

Offline dancer

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2020, 10:06:39 am »
No.  Going trillions of dollars more into debt isn't the answer.  Work programs -- paying people to work while going through training for a new job (as Reagan did) while giving tax breaks to those companies employing and job creation is the answer.  We sure as heck can't accomplish that while the DEMS keep closing everything down in order to continue to make those dependent on their new 'stimulus' program.

I haven't lost my mind at all and we cannot allow them to march us into socialism.  Fauci is predicting that we'll have herd immunity in the Fall of 2021 -- so how many more stimulus checks are they going to hand out??   How many people won't look for work because they make more off the government dole?? OR can't work because companies continue to go out of business?

Open up the country, let people work. Job creation.  Tax cuts.  It's never going to happen though under the DEMS.  Not their plan.
Work programs?  How will that work considering that the fascist governors and mayors won't allow people to do more than leave their homes, masks mandatory?  How do we open up the country so people can go to work?  They want to work, but can't.  Businesses are closed.  These are not normal times and we can't let good citizens starve to death.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #106 on: December 30, 2020, 10:15:27 am »
Work programs?  How will that work considering that the fascist governors and mayors won't allow people to do more than leave their homes, masks mandatory?  How do we open up the country so people can go to work?  They want to work, but can't.  Businesses are closed.  These are not normal times and we can't let good citizens starve to death.

There by accepting and funding their socialism and tyranny.

Offline dancer

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #107 on: December 30, 2020, 10:24:38 am »
I know every bad thing ever traces to the Bush Crime Family in your view.  McConnell being in the position he's in today may as well be laid at Bush's feet.  Or the Illuminati, one of them there.
Well, it kind of does Cyber.  It started with GHWB and Kissinger.  It gained in pace with each succeeding administration.  China now owns large parts of Congress, the Judiciary, Governors and big city Mayors.  Poppy's New World Order and thousand points of light that have turned into knives in the back of Americans.  Add Globalist businesses, a complicit media and here we are today.  Now what?

Offline dancer

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #108 on: December 30, 2020, 10:41:34 am »
There by accepting and funding their socialism and tyranny.
You are right but what alternative is there, roamer?  This crap has been going on for so long that it is now next to impossible to stop it.  This Covid debacle has us by the jugular. 

Online roamer_1

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #109 on: December 30, 2020, 11:12:07 am »
You are right but what alternative is there, roamer?  This crap has been going on for so long that it is now next to impossible to stop it.  This Covid debacle has us by the jugular.

People with full bellies will not rebel.
To fill their bellies is but to let them enter further into tyranny.
Where people need to stand up is where the tyranny is strongest.
I do not worry for me and mine. We won't put up with it, and don't put up with it even now.
I expect much the same across the red states.
Us standing up will do nothing.
Its the burbs and the liberal cities that need to stand up.
They will not if they are allowed their fantasies.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #110 on: December 30, 2020, 05:08:39 pm »
@Right_in_Virginia

Now, before I go off... I know this could be taken as me speaking sharply. Me trying to talk to you is akin to picking up a mad cat - There ain't nothing for it but to put on a leather glove and grab on hard. So please understand I mean you no personal offense. I have happily clanked a beer or two with you of late, and I do mean to preserve that. I am merely being... blunt... in forthrightness. Forgive me that.

See, I think it is just two kinds - I find conservative candidates to be quite engaging - And I find your boy Tumpy to be a waste of air. I literally don't listen to him, ever. I don't think I have spent an hour listening to him in the whole of four years... And most of that partial at best - I always get about 2 minutes in and have to shut it off.  I find HIM to be pompous and insincere. He struck me as a con from the get-go and phony as they come.

You like the show - I do not. And I never will. If I come across 'holier than thou' (though I would say the very same about you, frankly), I really don't care. I speak the truth as I know it, free from guile and without allegiances to any other. I know it's right, and the truth will out... Whereupon I will then be accused of 'I toldja sos' - Even though I do very little of that. So there is no percentage in me teaching or preaching (however you care to see it) without the other being willing to hear. Very much the same as you trying to teach/preach about the importance of popularity, which means absolutely nothing to me. And never will, by the way.

But to be sure - I am not holier than thou - Indeed i consider myself to be of a low nature - a sinner - and a man of unhealthy obsessions. My only wisdom is that I know that... And know what has saved me. Salvation means most to him that needs it most - And that'd be me.

This is a fair problem and requires more than I can put in a single missive. Perhaps a 'What is Conservatism' series hosted here on this board with stalwarts form the various factions providing their views... I would consider heading that up. But again, that does not seem to be the direction of things here. Deep thinking and definitions I mean. This place twizzles off into gossip and tub-thumping instead, and I don't know if the effort would be appreciated. And no offense meant in that. It seems y'all would rather stand for princes than for principles. And I just will never be that way.

In fact, I spend far more time in social conservatism and civil libertarianism. Though I tend to be conversant with all of the factional principles. Defense and Foreign Policy conservatism would be my weakness. But I tend to speak on all aspects and in all factions. Perhaps it would be a case of you not hearing me except in fiscal conservatism because that was the undeniable and indefensible weakness in Tumpy. Conservatism within the coalition is about not throwing anyone under the bus - And while I could be critical in many ways - there is no one that can deny it - Tumpy threw the fiscal conservatives under the bus. Period.

I have often said that a proper conservative conscience has civil libertarianism and the Judeo-Christian Ethic in friendly disagreement. Each polices the other. Civil libertarianism with no moral prism results in anarchy, and The Christian Right, with it's penchant toward a welfare state, is prevented from a theocracy, or chasing after socialism (See Huckabee) by libertarian principles.

The Judeo-Christian Ethic is the built-in American sense of right and wrong. It is the moral ethos, the prism through which our laws and principles are defined as written. Seen through a secular prism, or a Mohammedan one, those things look different and have different value. And I will give you one sure thing: There is no moral neutral. In the words of Bob Dylan, 'You've Got To Serve Somebody' Remove that ethic, and it will be replaced by another. That is the other thing: There is no moral vacuum either.

That ethic, for wont of a better description is what is preserved by the Christian Right. That winnows down into 'things' like abortion and homo marriage, and etc - But it is derived from that ethic.

There is no focus - In the broader sense of Kirk and Burke, Conservatism is a way of life - What we are discussing here is just American Conservatism as it touches politics. The interface of political factions as they form a coalition.

I consider that to be a fault, not of conservatism, but rather of the American main stream media and those who follow it. Funny isn't it, that the most widely renown news is found in the intellectual dark web - A long form factor without catchy slogans and phony 240 character tirades with people shouting over each other. I deny your premise. I think people hunger for truth. I think they will happily entertain dissection of issues. Else why Shapiro and Rubin and Petersen? The best and most popular work Glen Beck ever did was his in depth essays, often across many hour long shows.

Just because some are twitterpated, does not mean that all are, or even near a majority.

Your welcome - I hope my answers were sufficient.

It appears you've taken what I posted quite personally.  I wasn't referring to you, but to conservative political candidates.  My apologies for not making this clear up front and for using the universal "you".

I'm still coming at this from a political party, political candidate, political campaign POV.  So I'd like to repeat the question I'd really appreciate an answer to solely from a winning campaign angle.  Conservatives will have to win to govern.

Conservative politicians should be prepared to describe what the country will look like and act like under conservative leadership. Where will the conservative focus be --- the church? the boardroom? the globe?  the war room? the schoolroom?  the kitchen table?  the bedroom?  Are there three top priorities for a conservative political party?

Reagan summed up his vision for America with:  "Make America Great Again" after the Carter malaise; so does Trump after Obama's.  President Trump further refines his worldview to two words:  "America First" to address the insidious globalism in our national politics. 

What, in your opinion, should the tagline for the principled conservative vision of 21st Century America be, @roamer_1 ?   The country will want to know the America being proposed and what awaits them with a conservative victory.  And the one eternal truth in politics is there is no time for seminars and homework assignments.  So, what's the nub?

I remain sincerely interested in your response. 

Online roamer_1

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #111 on: December 31, 2020, 01:22:50 am »
It appears you've taken what I posted quite personally.  I wasn't referring to you, but to conservative political candidates.  My apologies for not making this clear up front and for using the universal "you".

@Right_in_Virginia
Nah - I don't take much personally - Though I do tend to answer with my own experience. All I meant is that you and me tend to be fire and ice. I mean not to burn bridges and cause offense.

Quote
I'm still coming at this from a political party, political candidate, political campaign POV.  So I'd like to repeat the question I'd really appreciate an answer to solely from a winning campaign angle.  Conservatives will have to win to govern.

Odd ain't it that all pretend to be conservative on election day - To include Tumpy. And I dare say that if he had not won the first time, the guy in second place would have done just as well - and maybe even better. And Cruz is a Conservative. So I don't give a crap about formulas and optics. Vote their record and vote their ability to keep the conservative coalition together and not throw anyone under the bus. I don't care whatever else, because that is the guy I will vote for, regardless of how he looks or speaks.

Quote
Conservative politicians should be prepared to describe what the country will look like and act like under conservative leadership. Where will the conservative focus be --- the church? the boardroom? the globe?  the war room? the schoolroom?  the kitchen table?  the bedroom?  Are there three top priorities for a conservative political party?

They do.

ETA: And no, there are no 'three things' there are the principles. all of them.

Quote
Reagan summed up his vision for America with:  "Make America Great Again" after the Carter malaise; so does Trump after Obama's.  President Trump further refines his worldview to two words:  "America First" to address the insidious globalism in our national politics. 

What, in your opinion, should the tagline for the principled conservative vision of 21st Century America be, @roamer_1 ?   The country will want to know the America being proposed and what awaits them with a conservative victory.  And the one eternal truth in politics is there is no time for seminars and homework assignments.  So, what's the nub?


Um... F*** taglines. You're talking to the wrong guy. I don't pay no mind to sloganeering - In fact, it does nothing but piss me off.  :shrug:

Quote
I remain sincerely interested in your response.

You need to throw away your formulaic box. Vote Conservative. Vote record. That's all that will give you the truth. And I am surprised I need to say it. Not long ago, everyone who considered themselves conservative were that very same way.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 01:24:46 am by roamer_1 »

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Trump..Good news on Covid Relief Bill. Information to follow!
« Reply #112 on: December 31, 2020, 04:00:09 pm »
@Right_in_Virginia

Odd ain't it that all pretend to be conservative on election day - To include Tumpy.

Untrue. The race in 2016 was not about labels.   Donald Trump presented as a common sense American Firster.  And based on his governing, this turns out to be conservative.  Going forward it's important not to lose sight of this; it's where victory for conservative candidates hides.  Trying to pull new voters, independent voters and democrat voters needed for victory into the "conservative" tent will not be half as successful as inviting voters to stand together as Americans --- and THIS is conservative by nature.


And I dare say that if he had not won the first time, the guy in second place would have done just as well - and maybe even better.

Sure, you can dare to say it; but it isn't true.  No Republican candidate in 2016 other than Donald Trump would have broken through the Democrat blue wall to win the election.  I see two candidates in 2024 who stand a chance of doing this again --- and neither is in Congress.


ETA: And no, there are no 'three things' there are the principles. all of them.  Um... F*** taglines. You're talking to the wrong guy. I don't pay no mind to sloganeering - In fact, it does nothing but piss me off.  :shrug:

But there are three standard pillars in a national political campaign: 1. Economy/jobs; 2. National security;  3. American society.  Apply the principles to each (separately) and you have the makings of the conservative tagline.  For instance, apply "America First" to each and the sheer genius of this tagline becomes clear.  "America First" is relatable, memorable and conservative without using the rather toxic "c" word.

And remember, I'm focused on a conservative winning a national election and to do so he or she cannot hold the principles so sacrosanct they're locked in a tabernacle.  These principles must be relatable to voters so they can understand how a conservative will govern their lives. Like it or not, "conservative" has a rather politically off-putting and "prissy" reputation so relying on the label alone is not sufficient for victory.   But the good news is:  A conservative candidate only needs to make this change if he or she really wants to win.

Another now tried and true way to go would be to hide the conservative candidate in a church basement for the duration of the campaign and flood the counting with both illegal and phantom votes until he or she overtakes the democrat candidate.


You need to throw away your formulaic box. Vote Conservative. Vote record. That's all that will give you the truth. And I am surprised I need to say it. Not long ago, everyone who considered themselves conservative were that very same way.

I think we've hit a wall in our discussion.  "Vote conservative" without explaining what conservative means in real life hasn't been a successful strategy to date (even Reagan used "Make America Great Again").  But I suppose hope does spring eternal, so you keep on truckin'.

Happy New Year, @roamer_1

Offline FeelNoPain

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« Reply #113 on: December 31, 2020, 04:44:56 pm »
Sure, you can dare to say it; but it isn't true.  No Republican candidate in 2016 other than Donald Trump would have broken through the Democrat blue wall to win the election.

Agreed. Flipping all those white working class Obama voters was strictly Trumpian.

No other 2016 GOP candidate was going to accomplish that. They were all too low-energy.
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« Reply #114 on: January 01, 2021, 01:57:49 am »
Untrue. The race in 2016 was not about labels.   Donald Trump presented as a common sense American Firster.  And based on his governing, this turns out to be conservative.  Going forward it's important not to lose sight of this; it's where victory for conservative candidates hides.  Trying to pull new voters, independent voters and democrat voters needed for victory into the "conservative" tent will not be half as successful as inviting voters to stand together as Americans --- and THIS is conservative by nature.

Blah blah blah. The election was 9/10ths fear of Hillary. And even at that, a low, low turnout from BOTH sides. And y'all BARELY drug his fat ass over the line. And the left didn't show up for Hillary at all - So stop acting like you have some workable formula.

And no - turning democrats or independents has never been the case - The real sea of voters are the disaffected... The disenfranchised. Them like me that don't bother anymore because y'all REALLY ain't speaking for me. There are always way more people that don't vote compared to those who do - Way more than enough to turn an election. And the juggernaut comes when them folks - to busy with life and being disenfranchised from politics - When them see fit to come arunning, THEN you have something real.

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Sure, you can dare to say it; but it isn't true.  No Republican candidate in 2016 other than Donald Trump would have broken through the Democrat blue wall to win the election.  I see two candidates in 2024 who stand a chance of doing this again --- and neither is in Congress.

Bloody nonsense. Nobody showed up. Just about anyone could have beat Hillary and done better than Tump doing it.

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But there are three standard pillars in a national political campaign: 1. Economy/jobs; 2. National security;  3. American society.  Apply the principles to each (separately) and you have the makings of the conservative tagline.  For instance, apply "America First" to each and the sheer genius of this tagline becomes clear.  "America First" is relatable, memorable and conservative without using the rather toxic "c" word.

Bleah. I don't care for chunked-and-formed recipes, any more than I do perfect hair, fancy suits and a twenty-five dollar smile. Or sloganeering. It's every bit the bullcrap that advertising is. And it never works on me.

So like I said - No offense meant, really. You are talking to the wrong guy. I don't care what the candidate looks like. I don't care what he says on the stump - I very literally will hardly listen to the campaign at all, no matter who he is... It's all Brylcream and turd polish. Campaign posters with a Dentine schwing. Like I said. I look at the record, and almost literally nothing else.
 
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And remember, I'm focused on a conservative winning a national election and to do so he or she cannot hold the principles so sacrosanct they're locked in a tabernacle.  These principles must be relatable to voters so they can understand how a conservative will govern their lives. Like it or not, "conservative" has a rather politically off-putting and "prissy" reputation so relying on the label alone is not sufficient for victory.   But the good news is:  A conservative candidate only needs to make this change if he or she really wants to win.

Foremost, a Conservative needs to win Conservatives as a unified bloc. Then you need not worry for any others. But you have to get them all to come, and that means preaching Conservatism from a guy with the bona fides  to speak it, as the record proves. It is not 'relying on the label'. That's the sort of thing pretenders do. Politicians. And such as those are a stench to me, if you haven't noticed. To include your boo...

You forget that Conservatism (as it touches politics) IS a coalition. It IS a strategy in and of its own self. The minute it is hyphenated, as you would do, it ceases to exist. Because one or more of the factions get thrown under the bus. And then that faction is butthurt and won't show up. And then you lose.

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Another now tried and true way to go would be to hide the conservative candidate in a church basement for the duration of the campaign and flood the counting with both illegal and phantom votes until he or she overtakes the democrat candidate.

Meh.

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I think we've hit a wall in our discussion.  "Vote conservative" without explaining what conservative means in real life hasn't been a successful strategy to date (even Reagan used "Make America Great Again").  But I suppose hope does spring eternal, so you keep on truckin'.

Happy New Year, @roamer_1

Actually, I didn't even think of 'Make America Great Again' nor notice it, until Tumpy stole it.
Yes I do believe we are at an impasse. Like I said - two different kinds. I will not be attracted to the things you find important election-wise. All that sort of thing does is put me off. And likely I speak for my kind. I care about merit, not promises. All you need to get my vote is a guy that deserves it, and can prove it.

But all the same @Right_in_Virginia , I do wish you well in this new year, and I thank you for the conversation, even if it is not ending in agreement, it was largely agreeable. And you get beers for that.  happy77

 :beer: