Author Topic: Losing our religion… history… and freedom  (Read 2700 times)

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Offline Knox27

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2020, 06:41:06 pm »
-------------------------------
Knox. Respectfully, your opinion is free.
Yet the Greeks, the wisest who ever walked this Earth,
told us a Creator was the spark for all that exists.

Absalom, you're def one of my favorites here!

Offline Absalom

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2020, 06:45:10 pm »
December 27, 2020. Losing our religion… history… and freedom. By Eric Utter
The U.S. has, simultaneously, come unmoored from its Judeo-Christian origins, eschewed its shared history and traditions, and lost its MoJo, its Johnson, its testosterone. (The latter may seem incongruous with the former, but it is not.) We have been so accommodating to everyone and everything but ourselves and our way of life that we have forgotten who we are. We do not want to offend those who wash up on our shores, so we subject ourselves to extremes of political correctness and identity politics, even as we give them money and a chance. In doing so, we have lost our shared identity, our cohesiveness, our religiosity… and our soul.
God created man and woman distinctly and with purpose. “Male and female He created them.” He said “Be fruitful and increase in number”… and take dominion over the animals and every living creature. Today, we don’t believe there are distinct genders, and can’t tell if we are men or women -- or any one of an infinite number of genders on a spectrum. We permit hundreds of thousands of abortions a year but feel bad swatting a mosquito or killing a mouse. It is not a coincidence that we are losing belief in ourselves as we are losing belief in God.
We have put up with the preposterous debasing of our Founders and watched quietly as their statues have been vandalized, destroyed or removed. We have meekly allowed our history to be rewritten and our Constitution and Bill of Rights to be assaulted.
We have ‘progressed’ from “Gunsmoke,” “The Magnificent Seven,” and “Father Knows Best” to “The View,” “Oprah,” and “Heather Has Two Mommies.” The Marlboro Man is out, the metrosexual is in. John Wayne is mocked for his ‘toxic masculinity,’ transgenders are reading to our elementary school kids.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Surprisingly, American Thinker has found a rational voice. Well done.
Indeed when nation/states lose their vision/voice,
their purpose follows, then decline and fall awaits!!!

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2020, 06:57:46 pm »
I dont understand these articles.  Does it occur to them that maybe there isn't a God and that its a good thing people don't believe in myths and fairytale?  There is a good reason people are more and more agnostic and atheist.  We see that the Virgin birth story happened multiple times in history, we know that our religious beliefs are a direct result of where on earth we were born,  we have so much more knowledge now and its like the writer of the article wants us not to know these things.  Just accept what the pastor says, don't think for yourself.

The article itself includes a thesis statement that is impossible to misunderstand :

"When a society loses either its religious heritage, its shared history and identity, or its collective cojones, its continued existence becomes problematic. When it loses two of the three, it will fall, whether sooner or later. When it loses all three simultaneously, it will effectively be gone in the cosmic blink of an eye."

One might disagree with this statement, but it is stated with complete clarity.

We don't begrudge anyone the freedom to reject traditional Christian theology or morality.  We argue that those traditional beliefs have been part of the cement holding American culture together.  When that cement is continually and sequentially rejected there is less holding us together, until there is nothing holding us together.  A libertarian ethic is simply not sufficient for an enduring culture of freedom because we can only surrender incremental *individual* liberty for common *ordered* liberty when we all agree on some common currency for the bargain.  One of the reasons the country is falling apart before our eyes is that we don't all agree on the premises of this exchange.  Anyone can reject traditional Christian ethics and theology in their private lives, but when we corporately reject them as a basis for understanding law then we ultimately reject a law that preserves freedom.

You argue above that "we have so much more knowledge now"; it does not follow that we have more understanding.  In fact a very solid case was made by Richard Weaver that we actually have less of the latter *because* we have more of the former.  Our understanding of phenomena has been greatly improved by the scientific method, but values and human freedom and man's place in the universe are not mere phenomena.

Quote
Do Greeks lament people not believing in Zeus and posieden?  You can't stop changing beliefs because it makes you uncomfortable.

But what basis do you assert for your position, other than your own personal discomfort with our beliefs?  Is someone trying to force you to attend church, or participate in communion, or swear to articles of faith?  If you are not the victim of this coercion, do you see someone else being forced?

Quote
In the title of the article, is says losing our freedom.  But can we point to the freedoms we have lost.  When this country was founded, black people were property and women couldn't vote.  Ask a Chinese rail.worker about freedoms we used to have.  Throughout our history, it seems we have gained more freedoms.  Not perfectly of course, but I think we have moved to the ideals expressed by the founders.  Equality for everyone, no religious persecution or tests, everyone has the right to pursue happiness without being abused for the way they live their life.

There were so many people that were outcasts,  I think its a good thing more views are expressed in media.

I don't know anyone, here or in real life, who wishes to abuse others or deny freedoms or return to institutionalized racism.  As you state yourself in the bold portion above, the ideals of the founders have served the country well and enabled human progress in our interactions with each other.  But those very founders, and later men who strove to more nearly perfect those ideals, are now derided, rejected, and their statues torn down because they did not conform to a particular current ethic.

The basis of our common agreement to freedom, the US Constitution, is interpreted according to perverse and arcane misapplications of clear language in part precisely because we have lost common belief, to the point that the very definitions of words are now fluid.  The men who created and later built on that basis are now derided as unworthy.  If you want to replace all that with "live and let live" you'll find it completely inadequate.

Why should we have any confidence in the continued health of the Tree of Liberty, other than our own willingness to water it?
James 1:20

Offline Knox27

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2020, 06:58:17 pm »
What does taking another opportunity to bash Trump and his supporters have to do with the original Topic?

I'll delete any more of your posts that contain the word "Trump" from this thread.  Done with messing with you.

Direct response to other posters saying I "support the steal" or "refuse to see the evidence"

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2020, 07:01:29 pm »
Direct response to other posters saying I "support the steal" or "refuse to see the evidence"

Yes, upon reflection of that fact, I deleted the post you quoted.  Carry on!   :beer:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Knox27

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2020, 07:18:19 pm »
The article itself includes a thesis statement that is impossible to misunderstand :

"When a society loses either its religious heritage, its shared history and identity, or its collective cojones, its continued existence becomes problematic. When it loses two of the three, it will fall, whether sooner or later. When it loses all three simultaneously, it will effectively be gone in the cosmic blink of an eye."

One might disagree with this statement, but it is stated with complete clarity.

We don't begrudge anyone the freedom to reject traditional Christian theology or morality.  We argue that those traditional beliefs have been part of the cement holding American culture together.  When that cement is continually and sequentially rejected there is less holding us together, until there is nothing holding us together.  A libertarian ethic is simply not sufficient for an enduring culture of freedom because we can only surrender incremental *individual* liberty for common *ordered* liberty when we all agree on some common currency for the bargain.  One of the reasons the country is falling apart before our eyes is that we don't all agree on the premises of this exchange.  Anyone can reject traditional Christian ethics and theology in their private lives, but when we corporately reject them as a basis for understanding law then we ultimately reject a law that preserves freedom.

You argue above that "we have so much more knowledge now"; it does not follow that we have more understanding.  In fact a very solid case was made by Richard Weaver that we actually have less of the latter *because* we have more of the former.  Our understanding of phenomena has been greatly improved by the scientific method, but values and human freedom and man's place in the universe are not mere phenomena.

But what basis do you assert for your position, other than your own personal discomfort with our beliefs?  Is someone trying to force you to attend church, or participate in communion, or swear to articles of faith?  If you are not the victim of this coercion, do you see someone else being forced?

I don't know anyone, here or in real life, who wishes to abuse others or deny freedoms or return to institutionalized racism.  As you state yourself in the bold portion above, the ideals of the founders have served the country well and enabled human progress in our interactions with each other.  But those very founders, and later men who strove to more nearly perfect those ideals, are now derided, rejected, and their statues torn down because they did not conform to a particular current ethic.

The basis of our common agreement to freedom, the US Constitution, is interpreted according to perverse and arcane misapplications of clear language in part precisely because we have lost common belief, to the point that the very definitions of words are now fluid.  The men who created and later built on that basis are now derided as unworthy.  If you want to replace all that with "live and let live" you'll find it completely inadequate.

Why should we have any confidence in the continued health of the Tree of Liberty, other than our own willingness to water it?

Sam, here is my issue.  Let us say that, anything from a club to an entire country exists, and you say that the cohesiveness depends on a certain "thing" being true...what is the consequence if that thing is not actually true?

Is the club or country damned?  I think it is not true that there is nothing holding the country together if, and when, its realized by a majority that "the thing" is untrue.

I do not believe it is "that thing" that is so important.  And in truth, I think we are better off with eyes wide open.   

"heather has 2 mommies" is not going to unravel the country.  I think including more people in the culture is a good thing.  but I understand that many republicans think its an abomination because they believe in this omnipotent being.  So if you trash something because your belief system says to trash it, where does that leave the growing millions that are trashed?  And explain to me how it is against the founding principles to exclude these millions, or to say they are "wrong" for what they do.  I really do not see how my view is a left-wing view.  It isn't.

What I believe is the source of the cohesiveness is that we do not trash things because we have a pre-determined belief system.  That the inevitable loss of "the thing" will keeping us together.

Which, to be clear, is not an argument that its false.   

And for those who curse the founders because they view them in the light of 2020, I disagree with that.  They wrote an amazing document and should be celebrated for that.  However they should not be blindly celebrated and the real flaws are real.  Washington, Jefferson, Madison were inherently pro-American.  They were brilliant, courageous men.  They have and deserve monuments in the public space.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2020, 07:18:30 pm »
I don't "refuse" to see anything, I just won't be conned. 

What I have seen is voting irregularities like there always are.  I've seen "statistical analysis" performed on what amounts to reporting vote totals, not real-time actual counts.  I've seen claims of hundred of affadavits, not a single one of which has been cross-examined.   I've seen the kraken-releaser's military intelligence expert has been outed as never having worked for military intelligence.  I've seen stories about a server in Germany and a gun-fight between the CIA and Delta force that for some reason, PEOPLE BELIEVED!!! 

I've seen one guy claiming to have driven ballots across state lines with nothing but his word.  Ive seen Melissa Carrone's testimony as a star whistle blower....watch that and tell me that she is believable when she refutes what even a friendly interviewer is trying to say.

Ive seen a video from Georgia that shows boxes under a table and then a narrative of what "must have occured" based off that.  I've seen memes showing incorrect numbers about requested ballots vs returned ballots.  False numbers about voter participation where the denominator changes from eligible voters to registered voters.  False numbers about registered voters in counties.

I've seen conservative Trump appointed judges dismiss cases.  Ive seen loss after loss after loss.  I've seen a man so unfit for the presidency that I am embarrassed that millions of Americans are duumb enough to fall for his bullshit.

I've seen Trump do what he has been doing for years, lie, lie, lie, lie.  Did he find those 3 million illegals that voted in 2016 yet?  Elt me know when he does.

I am not by any means what would be considered an avid Trump supporter; but I am embarrassed for you that you believe your own b.s.

Many of us, (especially @Right_in_Virginia who I don't see eye to eye with at times) took the time to post numerous links after links, cases after cases and copies of documents supporting that the election was blatantly stolen and you're going to sit here and try to defend the left??  Did you bother to read any of those or were you even paying attention?

Ted Cruz even stepped up to the plate to present  a case of instances of fraud; and even he was denied by the corrupt RINO/leftist judges. Just because a judge has been "deemed" a conservative doesn't mean that they will adhere to their oath of office. Perhaps you just haven't been paying attention??

I am embarrassed for you that you find Trump unfit as a President when he was nominated for several Nobel Peace Prizes, had a record of the lowest unemployment numbers in history and saved millions from dying BEFORE Covid-19 was recognized as a pandemic.  His pre-inauguration festivities had me in tears as I had not seen ANY President display such patriotism in my lifetime and I would guess I'm much older than you. Like the man or not (and believe me I have had my issues with him) one thing carried on throughout his presidency and that was his display of patriotism.

The man who was unfit to be president and duped millions into believing his b.s. was Hussein Obama and another who duped millions was George W.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respond to you not because I am trying to change your opinion, but hopefully shed some light on the reality of what is truly happening all around us and maybe you'll open your eyes instead of burying your head in the sand.




« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 07:19:37 pm by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Knox27

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2020, 07:31:05 pm »
I am not by any means what would be considered an avid Trump supporter; but I am embarrassed for you that you believe your own b.s.

Many of us, (especially @Right_in_Virginia who I don't see eye to eye with at times) took the time to post numerous links after links, cases after cases and copies of documents supporting that the election was blatantly stolen and you're going to sit here and try to defend the left??  Did you bother to read any of those or were you even paying attention?

Ted Cruz even stepped up to the plate to present  a case of instances of fraud; and even he was denied by the corrupt RINO/leftist judges. Just because a judge has been "deemed" a conservative doesn't mean that they will adhere to their oath of office. Perhaps you just haven't been paying attention??

I am embarrassed for you that you find Trump unfit as a President when he was nominated for several Nobel Peace Prizes, had a record of the lowest unemployment numbers in history and saved millions from dying BEFORE Covid-19 was recognized as a pandemic.  His pre-inauguration festivities had me in tears as I had not seen ANY President display such patriotism in my lifetime and I would guess I'm much older than you. Like the man or not (and believe me I have had my issues with him) one thing carried on throughout his presidency and that was his display of patriotism.

The man who was unfit to be president and duped millions into believing his b.s. was Hussein Obama and another who duped millions was George W.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respond to you not because I am trying to change your opinion, but hopefully shed some light on the reality of what is truly happening all around us and maybe you'll open your eyes instead of burying your head in the sand.

I'm not defending the left, I'm defending truth.

Yes, i've seen the links.  What is presented is unconfirmed allegations, irregularities, blatant falsehoods, and other assorted non-evidence.  If Biden presented the same information, you'd scoff at it. As would I.  I'm not accpeting something as true because of which side it comes from.

Cruz can do anything he wants, I don't decide what is true or not because of what Ted Cruz thinks.

Anyone can be nominated for a Peace prize.  Both obama and yassar arafat even have one.

Trump was good on changing the definition of full employment, lowering interest rates below what was perceived as the "correct" level, and deregulation.  That doesn't make him fit for the presidency when everything else is accounted for.

and lol at saved millions from dying.  Why not tell me he saved tens of millions.

I have a high degree of confidence in my ability to process and comprehend information well, but thanks for your help.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2020, 07:38:58 pm »
I'm not defending the left, I'm defending truth.

Yes, i've seen the links.  What is presented is unconfirmed allegations, irregularities, blatant falsehoods, and other assorted non-evidence.  If Biden presented the same information, you'd scoff at it. As would I.  I'm not accpeting something as true because of which side it comes from.

Cruz can do anything he wants, I don't decide what is true or not because of what Ted Cruz thinks.

Anyone can be nominated for a Peace prize.  Both obama and yassar arafat even have one.

Trump was good on changing the definition of full employment, lowering interest rates below what was perceived as the "correct" level, and deregulation.  That doesn't make him fit for the presidency when everything else is accounted for.

and lol at saved millions from dying.  Why not tell me he saved tens of millions.

I have a high degree of confidence in my ability to process and comprehend information well, but thanks for your help.

Nor am I and that's been my point.

You have to realistically look at what has happened from the very beginning of Trump's presidency until now and if you think that he and the American people especially got a fair shake then you and I have absolutely nothing further to discuss.  Nothing.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Absalom

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2020, 07:42:16 pm »
The article itself includes a thesis statement that is impossible to misunderstand :
"When a society loses either its religious heritage, its shared history and identity, or its collective cojones, its continued existence becomes problematic. When it loses two of the three, it will fall, whether sooner or later. When it loses all three simultaneously, it will effectively be gone in the cosmic blink of an eye."
One might disagree with this statement, but it is stated with complete clarity.
We don't begrudge anyone the freedom to reject traditional Christian theology or morality.  We argue that those traditional beliefs have been part of the cement holding American culture together.  When that cement is continually and sequentially rejected there is less holding us together, until there is nothing holding us together.  A libertarian ethic is simply not sufficient for an enduring culture of freedom because we can only surrender incremental *individual* liberty for common *ordered* liberty when we all agree on some common currency for the bargain.  One of the reasons the country is falling apart before our eyes is that we don't all agree on the premises of this exchange.  Anyone can reject traditional Christian ethics and theology in their private lives, but when we corporately reject them as a basis for understanding law then we ultimately reject a law that preserves freedom.
You argue above that "we have so much more knowledge now"; it does not follow that we have more understanding.  In fact a very solid case was made by Richard Weaver that we actually have less of the latter *because* we have more of the former.  Our understanding of phenomena has been greatly improved by the scientific method, but values and human freedom and man's place in the universe are not mere phenomena.
But what basis do you assert for your position, other than your own personal discomfort with our beliefs?  Is someone trying to force you to attend church, or participate in communion, or swear to articles of faith?  If you are not the victim of this coercion, do you see someone else being forced?
I don't know anyone, here or in real life, who wishes to abuse others or deny freedoms or return to institutionalized racism.  As you state yourself in the bold portion above, the ideals of the founders have served the country well and enabled human progress in our interactions with each other.  But those very founders, and later men who strove to more nearly perfect those ideals, are now derided, rejected, and their statues torn down because they did not conform to a particular current ethic.
The basis of our common agreement to freedom, the US Constitution, is interpreted according to perverse and arcane misapplications of clear language in part precisely because we have lost common belief, to the point that the very definitions of words are now fluid.  The men who created and later built on that basis are now derided as unworthy.  If you want to replace all that with "live and let live" you'll find it completely inadequate.
Why should we have any confidence in the continued health of the Tree of Liberty, other than our own willingness to water it?
------------------------------
Intuitive, insightful and well said!!!
Permit an opinion/assertion.
The driver of the malaise that has enveloped us is our embrace
of materialism; crowding out our spiritual awareness and sensibilities.

Offline Knox27

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2020, 07:49:00 pm »
Nor am I and that's been my point.

You have to realistically look at what has happened from the very beginning of Trump's presidency until now and if you think that he and the American people especially got a fair shake then you and I have absolutely nothing further to discuss.  Nothing.

The American people rarely get a fair shake, nor does any Republican president from the pop culture media, but fair shakes are besides the point when it comes to particular issues.  But it is a logical fallacy to assert because he was treated unfairly that therefore his claims about the election are true, which is seemingly what you are implying with your post.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2020, 08:01:10 pm »
The American people rarely get a fair shake, nor does any Republican president from the pop culture media, but fair shakes are besides the point when it comes to particular issues.  But it is a logical fallacy to assert because he was treated unfairly that therefore his claims about the election are true, which is seemingly what you are implying with your post.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

It is a fact that members of Trump's own party swore that he would be a one term president and Ryan and others at the expense of the American people failed to cooperate with him.  It is a fact that Russian collusion was not participated in by Trump but by the left.  It is a fact that the impeachment was bogus.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're willing to believe that the left wouldn't dream of cheating nor devise a way to ensure that they won an election when overwhelming evidence points otherwise?  Got it.

You are right, lots of people in life don't get fair shakes, but when the U.S. no longer has an electoral process with integrity, we lose our Republic.  That IS reality.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Knox27

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2020, 08:08:04 pm »
It is a fact that members of Trump's own party swore that he would be a one term president and Ryan and others at the expense of the American people failed to cooperate with him.  It is a fact that Russian collusion was not participated in by Trump but by the left.  It is a fact that the impeachment was bogus.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're willing to believe that the left wouldn't dream of cheating nor devise a way to ensure that they won an election when overwhelming evidence points otherwise?  Got it.

You are right, lots of people in life don't get fair shakes, but when the U.S. no longer has an electoral process with integrity, we lose our Republic.  That IS reality.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing of those things. I make no claims about what the left will, or could, do.  I merely stated 2 things.

1.  Republican presidents do not get a fair shake by media.

2.  I see no actual evidence of fraud.

What Republicans said is immaterial unless what they've said is their plans to participate in or allow some fraud.

Youre claim of overwhelming evidence is not true to me.  Im not engaging in the bandwagon fallacy.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2020, 08:17:20 pm »
Please don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing of those things. I make no claims about what the left will, or could, do.  I merely stated 2 things.

1.  Republican presidents do not get a fair shake by media.

2.  I see no actual evidence of fraud.

What Republicans said is immaterial unless what they've said is their plans to participate in or allow some fraud.

Youre claim of overwhelming evidence is not true to me.  Im not engaging in the bandwagon fallacy.

 :facepalm2:    :seeya:
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Absalom

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2020, 08:32:03 pm »
I don't "refuse" to see anything, I just won't be conned. 
What I have seen is voting irregularities like there always are.  I've seen "statistical analysis" performed on what amounts to reporting vote totals, not real-time actual counts.  I've seen claims of hundred of affadavits, not a single one of which has been cross-examined.   I've seen the kraken-releaser's military intelligence expert has been outed as never having worked for military intelligence.  I've seen stories about a server in Germany and a gun-fight between the CIA and Delta force that for some reason, PEOPLE BELIEVED!!! 
I've seen one guy claiming to have driven ballots across state lines with nothing but his word.  Ive seen Melissa Carrone's testimony as a star whistle blower....watch that and tell me that she is believable when she refutes what even a friendly interviewer is trying to say.
Ive seen a video from Georgia that shows boxes under a table and then a narrative of what "must have occured" based off that.  I've seen memes showing incorrect numbers about requested ballots vs returned ballots.  False numbers about voter participation where the denominator changes from eligible voters to registered voters.  False numbers about registered voters in counties.
I've seen conservative Trump appointed judges dismiss cases.  Ive seen loss after loss after loss.  I've seen a man so unfit for the presidency that I am embarrassed that millions of Americans are duumb enough to fall for his bullshit.
I've seen Trump do what he has been doing for years, lie, lie, lie, lie.  Did he find those 3 million illegals that voted in 2016 yet?  Elt me know when he does.
---------------------------
On the mark, per usual, adding a reflection.
Rome, co-founder of Western Civilization, survived and thrived for some 12 centuries.
Then some 1,500 years after their fall, a fraud and hustler emerged, insisting he would
rekindle the Glory and Majesty of Rome for modern Italians, who bought his malarkey.
At his core, Benito Mussolini was nothing but a con artist, charlatan and congenital liar,
who ended hanging from a tree, along w/hundreds of his devotees.
Trump is a spawn of the same genetic type, yet his sympathizers remain purposely
oblivious to his character making up absurd excuses and justifications for his behavior.
The grave danger is that these will continue to aggressively promote Trump, who was
decisively rejected in 2020, setting up a repeat election in 2024.

 

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2020, 08:32:56 pm »
Sam, here is my issue.  Let us say that, anything from a club to an entire country exists, and you say that the cohesiveness depends on a certain "thing" being true...what is the consequence if that thing is not actually true?
Thanks @Knox27.  Actually I'm not saying the "thing" has to be true, I'm saying the "thing" has to be generally accepted as a consensus.  It might be a myth but it has to be generally accepted.  And it's important to realize that the "thing" I'm talking about is not an empirically disprovable fact, which will legitimately challenge something like the Judeo-Christian Creation account, but instead a shared value.
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"heather has 2 mommies" is not going to unravel the country.
The idea that marriage is no longer the kind of relationship that creates children very well might unravel the country, in that it will reduce family law to an unmanageable bundle of contradictions.  That doesn't mean people should be legally prohibited from pursuing the intimate relationships they want to pursue.  It does mean we now have to confront issues like the prohibition against related people marrying.  A homosexual relationship cannot produce children, so why should homosexual marriage of related people be prevented?  And please note that any version of "it's always been that way" or "that's disgusting" will immediately be rejected with extreme prejudice as "bigoted hatred."
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I think including more people in the culture is a good thing.
As do I.  But if "the culture" is limited to "live and let live", then "including more people in the culture" has no meaning, because the culture has no definition.
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  but I understand that many republicans think its an abomination because they believe in this omnipotent being.  So if you trash something because your belief system says to trash it, where does that leave the growing millions that are trashed?
You won't find evidence on this board that I trash groups of people, so when you're talking with me this is a straw man.
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And explain to me how it is against the founding principles to exclude these millions, or to say they are "wrong" for what they do.  I really do not see how my view is a left-wing view.  It isn't.
I'm not concerned here with whether people label ideas as left-wing or right-wing.  I'm concerned with whether particular ideas can be integrated into, or expelled from, the culture in a way that perpetuates ordered, Constitutional liberty.  The evidence is very clear that some ideas are mandatory and others completely unacceptable.
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What I believe is the source of the cohesiveness is that we do not trash things because we have a pre-determined belief system.  That the inevitable loss of "the thing" will keeping us together.

Which, to be clear, is not an argument that its false.
If I am understanding you here then I disagree, fundamentally.  Without a pre-determined belief system there can be no togetherness.  We can argue about what that pre-determined belief system should include, and how tolerant it should be of deviation, but it must exist. 
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And for those who curse the founders because they view them in the light of 2020, I disagree with that.  They wrote an amazing document and should be celebrated for that.  However they should not be blindly celebrated and the real flaws are real.  Washington, Jefferson, Madison were inherently pro-American.  They were brilliant, courageous men.  They have and deserve monuments in the public space.
I'm happy to agree with you here.  I hope you'll eventually recognize that "no pre-determined belief system" is the idea that has led directly to those monuments being torn down.
James 1:20

Offline Knox27

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2020, 09:38:03 pm »
Thanks @Knox27.  Actually I'm not saying the "thing" has to be true, I'm saying the "thing" has to be generally accepted as a consensus.  It might be a myth but it has to be generally accepted.  And it's important to realize that the "thing" I'm talking about is not an empirically disprovable fact, which will legitimately challenge something like the Judeo-Christian Creation account, but instead a shared value.

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Fair point.  But we know that whether you believe it as true, or just an accepted myth, it is inevitable (to me) that it fades away.  I cannot see this as something to fight against, because then it becomes just forced and derided.  So true or "true" I feel the same way

The idea that marriage is no longer the kind of relationship that creates children very well might unravel the country, in that it will reduce family law to an unmanageable bundle of contradictions.  That doesn't mean people should be legally prohibited from pursuing the intimate relationships they want to pursue.  It does mean we now have to confront issues like the prohibition against related people marrying.  A homosexual relationship cannot produce children, so why should homosexual marriage of related people be prevented?  And please note that any version of "it's always been that way" or "that's disgusting" will immediately be rejected with extreme prejudice as "bigoted hatred."

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This is the slippery slope argument, which while a logical fallacy, does not mean that it doesn't have some truth to it.

You are right, what is to stop homosexual marriage of related people from getting married.  I don't have the answer for it, but I also feel like it would be a rare enough occurrence, and inconsequential enough that I'm not concerned with it.  Rick Santorum may take the argument further, but I dismiss that line of thinking out of hand.

But just as elderly people can marry, and women with hysterectomies can marry, and people with no intention of having children can marry, I fully support homosexual marriages, not just for the legal rights, but on a humanitarian level and constitutional level.  They should have the right to the same...happiness...that married couples have.

If it complicates family law...oh well.

As do I.  But if "the culture" is limited to "live and let live", then "including more people in the culture" has no meaning, because the culture has no definition.

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Just a disgreement we have here.  Culture is an abstraction anyway, I'm happy to have "live and let live" be a major facet of whatever we call culture.  Culture still includes rooting for team USA in basketball and soccer and gymnastics.  It still includes whatever is the prevailing cinema, there are lots of things included in the culture completely apart from a god or religion

You won't find evidence on this board that I trash groups of people, so when you're talking with me this is a straw man.

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Sir, I absolutely did not mean to imply that about you.

I'm not concerned here with whether people label ideas as left-wing or right-wing.  I'm concerned with whether particular ideas can be integrated into, or expelled from, the culture in a way that perpetuates ordered, Constitutional liberty.  The evidence is very clear that some ideas are mandatory and others completely unacceptable.If I am understanding you here then I disagree, fundamentally.  Without a pre-determined belief system there can be no togetherness.  We can argue about what that pre-determined belief system should include, and how tolerant it should be of deviation, but it must exist.

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The pre-determined belief system I spoke of was very narrow in scope, and only meant to be an example of how someone living sinfully in the context of biblical beliefs would be cast out by many....but that there are many "living in sin".  Just my view of how a religion is divisive in some ways.

 I'm happy to agree with you here.  I hope you'll eventually recognize that "no pre-determined belief system" is the idea that has led directly to those monuments being torn down.

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I dunno, I'm open to ruminating about things on a philosophical level though.  But I'm fine with confederate staues coming down, but not happy with founding father statues coming down.  And I don't feel like its a trivial difference between the two

Otherwise thanks for the thoughtful response!  I respect the POV, I cannot claim I'm definitely right.  And I likely won't be around for anything too eventful to happen in light of the articles premise if it does.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2020, 10:33:41 pm »
2.  I see no actual evidence of fraud.

Say that one more time.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2020, 11:07:26 pm »
I dont understand these articles.  Does it occur to them that maybe there isn't a God and that its a good thing people don't believe in myths and fairytale?  There is a good reason people are more and more agnostic and atheist. 

Right - the reason is the hubris of modernity which has lead to short-sightedness and ignorance.
And your post is utterly ignorant.

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We see that the Virgin birth story happened multiple times in history, we know that our religious beliefs are a direct result of where on earth we were born,  [...]

Framed within a pantheon of fallen ones given territorial authority on the earth, that is hardly any surprise. In fact it is predictable.

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we have so much more knowledge now and its like the writer of the article wants us not to know these things.  Just accept what the pastor says, don't think for yourself.

I do not believe we have 'so much knowledge' now. I think the individual has less knowledge now than generations past - Certainly less practicable knowledge, and certainly distanced from the Creation to the point of utter ignorance.

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Do Greeks lament people not believing in Zeus and posieden?  You can't stop changing beliefs because it makes you uncomfortable.

People still DO believe in Zeus and Poseidon. A rose by any other name still has the same thorns. It isn't a changing of beliefs that is in question - Beliefs are remarkably the same the world over. It is the ignorance of those who discard what they cannot see that is problematic. The war remains. People just deny it now.

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In the title of the article, is says losing our freedom.  But can we point to the freedoms we have lost. 

Shall I not hunt the king's deer? I need a permit to hunt, fish, gather firewood, build a house, drive a car - you are not free. you do not even have liberty. All you have is only by license. It is granted to you - you do not possess it.

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When this country was founded, black people were property and women couldn't vote.  Ask a Chinese rail.worker about freedoms we used to have.  Throughout our history, it seems we have gained more freedoms. 

To a point that was true. Not anymore.

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Not perfectly of course, but I think we have moved to the ideals expressed by the founders.  Equality for everyone, no religious persecution or tests, everyone has the right to pursue happiness without being abused for the way they live their life.

LOL! There are not religious tests? Try being a conservative teacher in the liberal school system some time. Try being an archaeologist (or any other science) without toeing the company line. No, you are only free to think the way they allow you to. Step over the line and you will be persecuted.

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There were so many people that were outcasts,  I think its a good thing more views are expressed in media.

Select views... Stand outside of that sometime.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 11:10:51 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2020, 11:14:37 pm »
Okay but is it freedom to be a black person and see statues in the public square of people who fought to preserve slavery?  What makes your view valid and his invalid?


Even if that were true, which it is not, why does that necessitate tearing those statues down? In fact, yours is not a neutral stance - Yours FAVORS one view over the other. You find it legitimate to tear those statues down.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2020, 11:15:28 pm »
Threads like this -- trying to reason with a troll or troublemaker -- are pointless.
Like wrestlin' with the proverbial pig.

I put the knox guy on "ignore" in almost record time.
It was obvious from his earliest posts he was either a new troll, or perhaps "a retread"...

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2020, 11:22:45 pm »
No, the vast majority of soldiers did not have slaves, but the generals and politicians who have statues erected in their honor often times did, and knowingly fought to preserve that right.

No. Slavery was already going out the window - The inconvenient truth is that the South relied upon that labor and required time for transition. It was leaving anywat, and probablywithin a decade it would have been gone on its own.

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And slavery was the biggest piece of the puzzle.

No, self-determination was the biggest piece of the puzzle. And state sovereignty in relationship to that self-determination...

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The men with statues, mostly the leaders of the Confederacy were traitors and losers and fought for slavery.  You'll have to try pretty hard to convince me its appropriate to have statues of them in public places.

You don;t have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Try some history before parroting talking points.

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So its not an issue of your freedom.   You can have a bust of jefferson Davis and stonewall jackson in your living room all day, but the millions of people who would have been owned by guys like that don't need to see them in public spaces or pay for their upkeep.

Then they should go make their own damn public spaces, not tear someone else's down. THAT is a little thing called federalism, and is the basis of the distribution of liberty. Folks are different. Leave em be and go do your own damn thing someplace else. Time will prove out which will win out.

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Its about public spaces vs private

No it isn't. It's about statism vs. federalism.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2020, 11:29:35 pm »
I mean, seriously, take a step back and think about it.  You have republicans vociferously defending statues of confederates in public spaces.  Then anyone that is offended is a "snowflake".  So what happens when you ask for that person's vote?  Or do you think people do not act on emotion?

No.  Conservatives defend the right of folks to do as they want in their own towns. The statues - less their honor by blood- are immaterial. That folks WANT them there is not.

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But yeah, you probably think "i may as well become a democrat if i do not advocate for the statues" as if it has anything to do with personal freedoms and deregulation and limiting govt largesse.

Yes, you may as well - The principle of federalism, even winnowed down to counties and townships is fundametal.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2020, 11:34:14 pm »
It is not a "morality game".  Philandering is not a crime against humanity

YES, in fact it is... In both cases.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Losing our religion… history… and freedom
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2020, 11:43:44 pm »
the author of the article does not seem to understand people come to that view legitimately.

No they do not - But that is a fight for another day. 


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How many of the laws in leviticus have been put on the books?

Virtually all of them.

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As far as rights in the 10th amendment, sure thats a real issue.  But the author seems to be saying that loss of religion equates to loss of freedoms.  I deny this is true.


In that you would be stone dead wrong. The right to believe as you will is a distinctly Protestant Christian principle. Not any other. Not an enlightenment idea.

Without that fundamental principle, you will be forced to bow down - as history attests over and over. It is precisely Christian thought that gives you liberty.

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How long ago was it that women could not take a loan without a co-signer?

SO what?

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How long ago was it people had to pay a poll tax to vote?

If only that were still so. If only those with skin in the game could vote, the federal largess supporting a monstrous welfare state would be gone.

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Whatever freedoms you think we have lost over time do not compare to the freedoms we have now. 

Nope freedom and it's close relation to privacy, has greatly eroded in my lifetime.