Author Topic: (Updates)Texas Sues Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin at Supreme Court over Election Ru  (Read 17667 times)

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Offline corbe

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@corbe the Constitution Party isn't what it used to be .... however .... I absolutely agree with you ...time is awasting .....

THIS REPUBLIC AND OUR CONSTITUTION ARE WORTH FIGHTING FOR!



   I truly understand that @libertybele BUT just as Manafort and Bannon (among others) rewrote the GOP Platform in 2016 so shall we rewrite theirs to our liking.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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@HoustonSam
I will ask you because you have been a voice of reason since I have been reading this board and I trust you will give me an answer beyond snot-sleeved emotionalism.

Well, I'll struggle to at least sound reasonable.  :shrug:

Quote
I never understood how the legal team could be faring so badly in court. Wasn't the Trump team 1 for 51? If the fraud was so ubiquitous and obvious, shouldn't there have been more success in court? Were all those judges (including recently appointed Trump judges) all of a collective mind against the propagation of the Republic's founding principles and values? 74 million souls voted for Trump, surely some of those judges were amongst their number.

I don't blame the Trump team.  It seems the rap I always see is "they should know better than to try to legally defend the Bad Orange Man."  This is the same reasoning that says some people are so bad they don't deserve the Constitutionally guaranteed right to a fair defense.

No, it's the entire legal system that has lost its moorings to chase social justice, and they've been at if for at least a century.  Judges are now far more interested in pushing their concept of "fair" at the moment they are asked to decide something.

Like a fish rots from the head, the SCOTUS has been giving the green light to free-for-all "justice,"  the US and State Constitutions be damned.  Even the Originalists on the SCOTUS failed the country today.

The 200+ year experiment in establishing a Constitutional Republic is now over and done with.  Next comes "Every man for himself," and it's not going to be pretty.

Maybe I'll be less "emotional," as you put it, in the morning.  Sure, there are still cases out there, but this one was the best shot at curing the Democrat theft.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Golly GI Joe, I wasn’t thinking of you. 

Anyway enjoy your party.

Soon to be a party of one.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline yodaspock

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Time to send Seal team 6 to visit the members of the Supreme Court.

Online DCPatriot

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@Right_in_Virginia

Want to sincerely thank you for your tireless efforts here on the forum this past year.

You deserve the Mother of all Hugs for your focus and dedication.  I am eternally grateful.

Chin up...shoulders square by dear Friend.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Time to send Seal team 6 to visit the members of the Supreme Court.

A court that takes a side is not a court at all.  This SCOTUS took a side, and it ain't ours.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Banned Member #2

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GOP is the Government of the People.  All people. Your ancestors, mine, and everyone that came from them. Fences are for countries like North Korea, the Soviet Union, the former East Germany, and every communist and crooked regime that has ever been. It is not for free countries, never has been before this recent pack of delusionals had their 15 seconds of fame.

Offline Banned Member #2

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But yeah, build the wall. Mexico will pay for it, right?

Offline Banned Member #2

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A court that takes a side is not a court at all.  This SCOTUS took a side, and it ain't ours.

If it isn’t yours then you are not a part of this system. That SCOTUS is conservative appointed in the majority as you well know. Not yours? Sounds like you need to find your own version of happiness elsewhere,  because you do not understand how this country works and has worked for over 200 years, nor have you any respect for the checks and balances in place.  You want fences, and supreme courts which vote according to how the justices were placed....you can find a number of commy countries to move to that work just like that. You won’t be missed.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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You won’t be missed.

Correction, it's you who won't be missed.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Victoria33

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@Cyber Liberty
@mystery-ak
@corbe
@libertybele
@Gefn

Wait a minute - many on here, plus the two of you (Cyber/mystery), say we are lost - the Republic is dead, etc., etc.  I am surprised to read these posts.  I don't mean we should get our guns and win back the country.  What I mean, is:

Biden is President for four years - only.

If the two Republican Senators in Georgia win, we have the Senate.  Senators can hold down/stop Biden's biggest plans.  If the Rep. Senators lose in Georgia, we don't have the senate but Biden has only four years.  We will live through these four years (well, you will, maybe I will).

All of you have four years to bring about what you have written on this thread.  Want a new party?  Make one.  What to remake this old Party?  Remake it.  Do not spend 4 years in grief - make a plan and do something.

What can you do?
Go online to your state party, as in, "Florida Republican Party"  - read what is there; read it all.  Look for your county party on that website.  You will find your county
Republican Party - go there and read it, every single bit.  While you read it, think about what you could do with/for that group.

You will make friends easily with your County Republican Party members.  You could find that your County Republican Party keeps their office open all year.  OK, more rules/laws:  In Texas, the state pays for the office to be open during election season.  If the county party office stays open all year, the county party has to pay for those other months.

When husband and I started a Republican County Party, we could only open an office during election season as we did not have money to keep it open all year.  We also started having monthly meetings at the local restaurant that had a large section to close off for group meetings.  We got bigger with more people and they wanted an office open all year so they could go hang out there and discuss politics or whatever else they wanted to discuss with one another.  When we had a monthly meeting, they dumped money into a box so we could keep the office open all year and the bills got paid.  Yes, Cyber, we had coffee and donuts/pastries. We ran that Party and improved that county.

You can do things in your county.  You can send messages to your state office holders and national office holders.  You can go to your state office holders websites, and your national Rep. and Senator websites.  You will be surprised what you find on those websites - you will know how to help them.  You will know how to get your message across if they are taking actions you do not like - let them know but without curse words, please.

Go to those places above on the net to start doing something other than feeling as though the country is lost - we are not lost - we just have a hiccup bit of down time to make new plans.     

 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 03:10:50 am by Victoria33 »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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@Victoria33

I feel a bit better, having scraped some pasture droppings off our collective shoes.  I'm sure the morning will be better.

ETA:  I'm more energized than ever to do that task we talked about next month.  The Chair awaits.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 03:13:21 am by Cyber Liberty »
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline corbe

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   I'm sorry @Victoria33 but I've been hearing that for 4 friggin years  'don't worry, it's gonna be OK'.  I weep from depths I didn't know existed for my Country right now.  2016 was even too late, 2021 seems too formidable for this ol Man, especially tonight....I'm beat, extremely disillusioned. 
   As Cyber says, tomorrow is another day.


   When the Ballot Box no longer allows you to settle your grievances, fairly, it's time to drag that AMMO Box out of your garage.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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   I'm sorry @Victoria33 but I've been hearing that for 4 friggin years  'don't worry, it's gonna be OK'.  I weep from depths I didn't know existed for my Country right now.  2016 was even too late, 2021 seems too formidable for this ol Man, especially tonight....I'm beat, extremely disillusioned. 
   As Cyber says, tomorrow is another day.


   When the Ballot Box no longer allows you to settle your grievances, fairly, it's time to drag that AMMO Box out of your garage.

Who told you mine are in the garage?  rrthree
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline HoustonSam

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@HoustonSam
I will ask you because you have been a voice of reason since I have been reading this board and I trust you will give me an answer beyond snot-sleeved emotionalism.

I never understood how the legal team could be faring so badly in court. Wasn't the Trump team 1 for 51? If the fraud was so ubiquitous and obvious, shouldn't there have been more success in court? Were all those judges (including recently appointed Trump judges) all of a collective mind against the propagation of the Republic's founding principles and values? 74 million souls voted for Trump, surely some of those judges were amongst their number.

Thank you @FeelNoPain for such a kind, and convicting, assessment of my contributions here.  It means a lot that you would approach me with the question in the way that you have.  Being susceptible to all the common failings of the human condition, I will inevitably craft an inadequate response.  But perhaps you'll give me the benefit of the doubt for sincerity where my thinking is weak.

First I don't think Trump's team lost all those court cases.  People who supported Trump independently filed, and independently lost, the large majority of them.  I think Trump's actual legal team filed three cases, and also joined in the Paxton case.  Now having said that, your question is still relevant - regardless of who filed the cases, the record suggests strongly that the fundamental legal arguments advanced by Trump, or independently by his supporters, must be weak, or else that the entire bench at both state and Federal levels is arrayed in conspiracy against him.

Now I haven't read any of the specific filings, and if I had read them my interpretation would not be trustworthy since I don't have a legal education.  But I think generically the main thrust of most of the filings was fraud.  I do believe there has been a lot of fraud, but it would not surprise me if that fraud were not proven sufficiently to stand up in court.  State authorities, whether R or D, have every incentive to argue strenuously against the allegation of fraud because proven fraud would make them look incompetent or corrupt.  And I don't know what it takes legally to prove fraud in court; I would not be surprised to learn that it takes a lot more than what we've seen.

Personally I find very compelling what we have seen, but I recognize that what is compelling to me might not meet a legal standard (and if I were on trial for fraud I would certainly want the standard of evidence to be extremely high).  Where the legal standard surpasses what we can plainly see, I'm more opposed to the legal standard (which I admit I don't understand) than opposed to Trump and his allies for failing to meet that standard.  So I don't believe the entire legal profession is engaged in collusion against Trump, but I do believe that profession has regularly failed us as a free people by creating an arcane and reactive interpretation of law that defies common sense and standard linguistics and that reinforces the special status and privilege of a political ruling class, and I see this as yet another example.  Government with the consent of the governed is not possible when law is interpreted in flat contradiction to the plain sense of the governed, but this is the path the courts have put us on, whether the judges were appointed by R or D.  It's not political collusion against Trump, it's elitist collusion against plain sense, reinforced by media collusion to render that plain sense inert.

On the other side I have argued here previously that the credulous willingness to advance piecemeal *any* allegation of fraud has been detrimental to Trump's case and, more importantly, to the case for credible elections generally.  Trump and his supporters have in many instances been their own worst enemies.  I am amazed that Rudy couldn't find a more effective witness in Michigan than Cyndi Lauper's stupid younger sister (and in fairness the other witnesses were more effective, but it was entirely predictable who would get the air time.)

The Paxton case, however, is not based on allegations of fraud, but of inconsistencies in election procedure that are so great as to be unconstitutional; different thinking is required to assess this one.  Many of us (myself included) believe that Pennsylvania violated the Electors Clause when its Supreme Court unilaterally changed state-level election law; apparently seven SCOTUS Justices believe that "state-level" outweighs "Electors Clause."  As an old-fashioned advocate of state sovereignty within the Reserved Powers, I appreciate deference in the Federal Judiciary regarding those Reserved Powers.  But to me it's clear that the state legislature determines election law, not the state judiciary.  And if one state does not have "standing" to challenge the Federal election procedures of another when the latter contradicts the Constitution, then the court is really telling us that the states cannot appeal to the Federal Judiciary to protect the voting integrity of their own citizens.  We already know that the *Federal* government will intervene in state election laws, but apparently the court will reserve that right strictly to itself; the mere *states* have no such right to look after the integrity of the vote for their own citizens.  It's another example of Federal over-reach at the expense of the states.

What's worse is that SCOTUS didn't reach this specious conclusion after hearing the case - they refused to hear it.

The only possible defense I can think of for their decision is that the Paxton case asks for a decision about four states, but the evidence of non-legislative (hence unconstitutional) changes to election law is limited to one state of the four.

So again I don't see this as collusion or conspiracy against Trump, I see it as legal doctrine that is inadequate to maintain a Republic of free people.  And I don't think this is about Trump; he's just a circumstance in this, a venial distraction from the careful consideration of Constitutional principles.  And while I don't claim the courts are in conspiracy against him, I do suspect his character flaws are too great for many otherwise-fair-minded people to see beyond.

I hope that approaches something reasonable as a defense of the basic appeal to the courts, if not a defense of the specific strategy that was used in that appeal.  Do not hesitate to poke holes in my thinking, or let me know where I've let you down; I'm sure my analysis can use improvement.  And thanks again FeelNoPain for such a humbling and flattering reaction to my sporadic activity here at TBR.
James 1:20

Online catfish1957

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Stepped away for an evening of Christmas TV with wife,  and just found out my vote means nothing in grand design of picking a government for this country.  They have "Sealed the Steal"
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Stepped away for an evening of Christmas TV with wife,  and just found out my vote means nothing in grand design of picking a government for this country.  They have "Sealed the Steal"

Yeah, I saw that too.  Afterwards, I went out and filmed a really good sunset from the Castle.  I posted it in the Lounge.  Coupla tranqs and I'm off to bed.   :shrug:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline corbe

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   I quit drinking and smoking over an hour ago.  It's futile.  NOTHING can erase the pain of this travesty. 
   Even @Texas Robin left tonight when this news broke, knowing she'd be back tomorrow to pick up the pieces.
   I'm gonna go to bed and find an old 40's Noir film to watch, nothing like a Female Fatale to get me alive inside, again.
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Online catfish1957

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Time for legal, innovative, and creative means of civil disobedience.

Don't forget folks,   $ = power. 
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Online DCPatriot

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I quit drinking and smoking over an hour ago.  It's futile.  NOTHING can erase the pain of this travesty. 
Even @Texas Robin left tonight when this news broke, knowing she'd be back tomorrow to pick up the pieces.
I'm gonna go to bed and find an old 40's Noir film to watch, nothing like a Female Fatale to get me alive inside, again.


I feel ya, @corbe
 
I'm beat.  Done.  Finished.

It's been vivid.

"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline FeelNoPain

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Thank you @FeelNoPain for such a kind, and convicting, assessment of my contributions here.  It means a lot that you would approach me with the question in the way that you have.  Being susceptible to all the common failings of the human condition, I will inevitably craft an inadequate response.  But perhaps you'll give me the benefit of the doubt for sincerity where my thinking is weak.

First I don't think Trump's team lost all those court cases.  People who supported Trump independently filed, and independently lost, the large majority of them.  I think Trump's actual legal team filed three cases, and also joined in the Paxton case.  Now having said that, your question is still relevant - regardless of who filed the cases, the record suggests strongly that the fundamental legal arguments advanced by Trump, or independently by his supporters, must be weak, or else that the entire bench at both state and Federal levels is arrayed in conspiracy against him.

Now I haven't read any of the specific filings, and if I had read them my interpretation would not be trustworthy since I don't have a legal education.  But I think generically the main thrust of most of the filings was fraud.  I do believe there has been a lot of fraud, but it would not surprise me if that fraud were not proven sufficiently to stand up in court.  State authorities, whether R or D, have every incentive to argue strenuously against the allegation of fraud because proven fraud would make them look incompetent or corrupt.  And I don't know what it takes legally to prove fraud in court; I would not be surprised to learn that it takes a lot more than what we've seen.

Personally I find very compelling what we have seen, but I recognize that what is compelling to me might not meet a legal standard (and if I were on trial for fraud I would certainly want the standard of evidence to be extremely high).  Where the legal standard surpasses what we can plainly see, I'm more opposed to the legal standard (which I admit I don't understand) than opposed to Trump and his allies for failing to meet that standard.  So I don't believe the entire legal profession is engaged in collusion against Trump, but I do believe that profession has regularly failed us as a free people by creating an arcane and reactive interpretation of law that defies common sense and standard linguistics and that reinforces the special status and privilege of a political ruling class, and I see this as yet another example.  Government with the consent of the governed is not possible when law is interpreted in flat contradiction to the plain sense of the governed, but this is the path the courts have put us on, whether the judges were appointed by R or D.  It's not political collusion against Trump, it's elitist collusion against plain sense, reinforced by media collusion to render that plain sense inert.

On the other side I have argued here previously that the credulous willingness to advance piecemeal *any* allegation of fraud has been detrimental to Trump's case and, more importantly, to the case for credible elections generally.  Trump and his supporters have in many instances been their own worst enemies.  I am amazed that Rudy couldn't find a more effective witness in Michigan than Cyndi Lauper's stupid younger sister (and in fairness the other witnesses were more effective, but it was entirely predictable who would get the air time.)

The Paxton case, however, is not based on allegations of fraud, but of inconsistencies in election procedure that are so great as to be unconstitutional; different thinking is required to assess this one.  Many of us (myself included) believe that Pennsylvania violated the Electors Clause when its Supreme Court unilaterally changed state-level election law; apparently seven SCOTUS Justices believe that "state-level" outweighs "Electors Clause."  As an old-fashioned advocate of state sovereignty within the Reserved Powers, I appreciate deference in the Federal Judiciary regarding those Reserved Powers.  But to me it's clear that the state legislature determines election law, not the state judiciary.  And if one state does not have "standing" to challenge the Federal election procedures of another when the latter contradicts the Constitution, then the court is really telling us that the states cannot appeal to the Federal Judiciary to protect the voting integrity of their own citizens.  We already know that the *Federal* government will intervene in state election laws, but apparently the court will reserve that right strictly to itself; the mere *states* have no such right to look after the integrity of the vote for their own citizens.  It's another example of Federal over-reach at the expense of the states.

What's worse is that SCOTUS didn't reach this specious conclusion after hearing the case - they refused to hear it.

The only possible defense I can think of for their decision is that the Paxton case asks for a decision about four states, but the evidence of non-legislative (hence unconstitutional) changes to election law is limited to one state of the four.

So again I don't see this as collusion or conspiracy against Trump, I see it as legal doctrine that is inadequate to maintain a Republic of free people.  And I don't think this is about Trump; he's just a circumstance in this, a venial distraction from the careful consideration of Constitutional principles.  And while I don't claim the courts are in conspiracy against him, I do suspect his character flaws are too great for many otherwise-fair-minded people to see beyond.

I hope that approaches something reasonable as a defense of the basic appeal to the courts, if not a defense of the specific strategy that was used in that appeal.  Do not hesitate to poke holes in my thinking, or let me know where I've let you down; I'm sure my analysis can use improvement.  And thanks again FeelNoPain for such a humbling and flattering reaction to my sporadic activity here at TBR.

Thank you for the well-reasoned insight. That's why I come here.  :beer:

"I’d like to begin by addressing the heinous attack on the United States Capitol. Like all Americans I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem...

To demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol: you have defiled the seat of American democracy. To those who engage in the acts of violence and destruction: you do not represent our country. And to those who broke the law: you will pay." - President Donald J. Trump, January 7th, 2021

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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We won't get one, it was 7-2.  Benjamin Franklin was right...we just lost the Republic.  Done.

There's no coming back from this punt.  This nation desperately needed a legal opinion -- one way or the other.  Now we're stuck in this election forever. 

Adding insult to injury:  The democrat majority will not make changes to election procedures.  Why would they? 

The Supreme Court denied this nation a way forward. 

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There's no coming back from this punt.  This nation desperately needed a legal opinion -- one way or the other.  Now we're stuck in this election forever. 

Adding insult to injury:  The democrat majority will not make changes to election procedures.  Why would they? 

The Supreme Court denied this nation a way forward.
Yeah sending the case back with hardly a comment was about the worst thing they could’ve done.

Offline FeelNoPain

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   I quit drinking and smoking over an hour ago.  It's futile.  NOTHING can erase the pain of this travesty. 
   Even @Texas Robin left tonight when this news broke, knowing she'd be back tomorrow to pick up the pieces.
   I'm gonna go to bed and find an old 40's Noir film to watch, nothing like a Female Fatale to get me alive inside, again.

My wife is addicted to 40's music and 40's films.
And just remodeled our kitchen, den and living room to look mid-century modern, circa 1955.

I don't know what the hell is going on with her. Maybe Trump's appeal to nostalgia ensnared her.
"I’d like to begin by addressing the heinous attack on the United States Capitol. Like all Americans I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem...

To demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol: you have defiled the seat of American democracy. To those who engage in the acts of violence and destruction: you do not represent our country. And to those who broke the law: you will pay." - President Donald J. Trump, January 7th, 2021

Online catfish1957

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Yeah sending the case back with hardly a comment was about the worst thing they could’ve done.

I think there is universal sentiment from congress, to the judiciary, that any overturn of the election carried a lot more risk of nation shaking violence in their eyes than the alternative.  You know...   Conservatives are law abiding, peaceful and in their eyes docile creatures.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 04:16:56 am by catfish1957 »
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.