Author Topic: Michigan: Legal Updates  (Read 33162 times)

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Online DCPatriot

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2020, 08:36:59 pm »
I would say that constitutes strong EVIDENCE of fraud!

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Online roamer_1

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2020, 09:22:25 pm »
Calling what @Bigun posted "clear evidence" a "neat argument" is purposefully being a circus clown.

So....WTF is wrong with YOU??

@DCPatriot
Because it ISN'T evidence. Its authenticity has not been vetted. It may in fact be authentic, but has been manipulated. No alternatives posed. There may be a reason why the big dump happened. I don't know nothing, and neither do YOU. There is PLENTY of propaganda on BOTH sides of the aisle.So the better question would be, why are you willing to just believe it without subjecting it to any scrutiny?

So yes. Right now it's a neat argument I would like to see answered. And that is a reasonable stance to take.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2020, 09:45:26 pm »

â„•𝔼𝕆â„• ℝ𝔼𝕍𝕆𝕃𝕋
@NeonRevolt

6h
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Read the affidavit!

No TLDR here. Read it all. It's explosive! Massive analytical take showing how intentionally-broken #Dominion voting machines were used to create voter fraud all over!


https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.gand.283580/gov.uscourts.gand.283580.7.1_2.pdf

Thanks for this!  @Bigun

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2020, 10:30:18 pm »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online roamer_1

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2020, 11:22:41 pm »
Now, I'm going to go have a talk with Elvis in the K mart parking lot next to his new ride, because it's just as probable as some of the vote totals being legit.

Wait... You still have a Kmart?

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2020, 11:40:36 pm »
@DCPatriot
Because it ISN'T evidence. Its authenticity has not been vetted. It may in fact be authentic, but has been manipulated. No alternatives posed. There may be a reason why the big dump happened. I don't know nothing, and neither do YOU. There is PLENTY of propaganda on BOTH sides of the aisle.So the better question would be, why are you willing to just believe it without subjecting it to any scrutiny?

So yes. Right now it's a neat argument I would like to see answered. And that is a reasonable stance to take.

Actually, contrary to your assertions, it is evidence.  Circumstantial evidence.  I know it's not the brand you are looking for, but we're gonna have to face it:  The "real" evidence won't come out until it hist the Federal Courts.

People will speculate, and an infinite number of water-saturated blankets won't stop that, it just gets friends angry with each other.  Just scroll up a million or so pages.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2020, 12:03:43 am »
Actually, contrary to your assertions, it is evidence.  Circumstantial evidence.  I know it's not the brand you are looking for, but we're gonna have to face it:  The "real" evidence won't come out until it hist the Federal Courts.

People will speculate, and an infinite number of water-saturated blankets won't stop that, it just gets friends angry with each other.  Just scroll up a million or so pages.

I see what you mean. but no it is not. It has not been verified. It's part of a big picture that someone is painting - Whether that picture is right or not remains to be seen.


Honest question: If Dominion or Scytl came out to demonstrate that the charges against them are false, would you even listen? Would you at least give them a fair shake?
I would bet not.
Then ask yourself why.

And that ain't on you, or anybody... But more about what waggin tongues do.

I am trying to remain circumspect. As should we all.

Offline mystery-ak

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2020, 12:38:56 am »
John James Calls on Michigan Board of Canvassers to Delay Vote Certification, Investigate Ballot Counting

Kyle Olson20 Nov 2020544
2:57

Republican Senate candidate John James called on the Michigan Board of Canvassers to hold off certifying the election results during its meeting Monday, and recommended that the investigation of fraud allegations be extended for two weeks “to provide a more complete review before certification.”

James challenged Democrat incumbent Sen. Gary Peters. Unofficial results show Peters leading James by about 85,000 votes, or 1.5 percent, according to the Associated Press.

The Republican asked to take until December 7 to investigate claims by dozens of observers who have filed affidavits alleging fraud, ballots being counted multiple times, and procedures not being followed during the counting process in Detroit.

“I submit this request because I am interested in the truth and protecting the integrity of our elections,” James said in his letter, calling for the group to “fully audit” the results.

“Sometimes the truth takes time to surface, and it’s rarely easy to get to. Time is the most valuable asset we have at this stage and I ask that we take all the time reasonable and allowed — not to undermine our elections — but to improve them and boost public confidence in the results of the election,” James said.

more
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/11/20/john-james-calls-michigan-board-canvassers-delay-vote-certification-investigate-ballot-counting/
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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #58 on: November 21, 2020, 01:05:38 am »
I see what you mean. but no it is not. It has not been verified. It's part of a big picture that someone is painting - Whether that picture is right or not remains to be seen.


Honest question: If Dominion or Scytl came out to demonstrate that the charges against them are false, would you even listen? Would you at least give them a fair shake?
I would bet not.
Then ask yourself why.

And that ain't on you, or anybody... But more about what waggin tongues do.

I am trying to remain circumspect. As should we all.

Dominion refused to appear before the PA Senate, and has been actively hiding.  I think I would be out of line to ask why are they refusing to defend their work product?
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #59 on: November 21, 2020, 01:09:07 am »
Dominion refused to appear before the PA Senate, and has been actively hiding.  I think I would be out of line to ask why are they refusing to defend their work product?

No... Other than the rather obvious legal liabilities... Which may be their lawyers telling them to shut up... And perhaps present themselves in a manner they control... Typical corporate reaction... Couldn't that be true too?

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2020, 01:16:20 am »
Lee Chatfield
@LeeChatfield


I was glad to have met with President Trump this evening. Here is my statement on the meeting:



6:39 PM · Nov 20, 2020·Twitter for iPhone

https://twitter.com/LeeChatfield/status/1329932383030824960

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2020, 01:22:31 am »
No... Other than the rather obvious legal liabilities... Which may be their lawyers telling them to shut up... And perhaps present themselves in a manner they control... Typical corporate reaction... Couldn't that be true too?

It was their lawyers who stiff-armed the PA Senate.  If they told them to shut up, it sounds like they are waiting for a trial before a court.  Guess why?  They don't want to release the evidence.  Why can't Sidney Powell's team get the same courtesy?
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2020, 01:27:31 am »
It hurts me a little to agree with Roamer...at least to an extent. I've poured through a bunch of data analysis...and I'm no mathematician...and there is some very stunning anomalies. But I'm not sure you can all that real evidence of wrongdoing as long as there are other potential explanations. And there are some...so we must be cautious in looking at this data. That said, we MUST look at it and conduct some deep audits of the vote in Michigan, Wiscy and PA...because SOMETHING is rotten in the state of Denmark. But no one is going to be convinced via probability charts and data citations...there must be more direct evidence and its likely going to require someone from the "inside" turning on their fellow criminals.

I really believe these Dominion machines were used to defraud millions of votes...but my belief in that means nothing nor does the President's opinion on this matter. Hard evidence...that's the only way forward...and we just don't have it yet.
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Offline DB

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2020, 01:31:47 am »
It hurts me a little to agree with Roamer...at least to an extent. I've poured through a bunch of data analysis...and I'm no mathematician...and there is some very stunning anomalies. But I'm not sure you can all that real evidence of wrongdoing as long as there are other potential explanations. And there are some...so we must be cautious in looking at this data. That said, we MUST look at it and conduct some deep audits of the vote in Michigan, Wiscy and PA...because SOMETHING is rotten in the state of Denmark. But no one is going to be convinced via probability charts and data citations...there must be more direct evidence and its likely going to require someone from the "inside" turning on their fellow criminals.

I really believe these Dominion machines were used to defraud millions of votes...but my belief in that means nothing nor does the President's opinion on this matter. Hard evidence...that's the only way forward...and we just don't have it yet.

We're just going to have to wait and see what they really have. That's the bottom line.

Offline aligncare

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2020, 01:32:27 am »
The circumstantial evidence of fraud is compelling—all in democrat voting jurisdictions (nothing dubious there). Too many statistical anomalies, logical inconsistencies, and suspicious instances where the voting even breaks the laws of physics!

Too many improbabilities to ignore. Besides, we know the character of democrats. They did this.

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2020, 01:35:17 am »
It hurts me a little to agree with Roamer...at least to an extent. I've poured through a bunch of data analysis...and I'm no mathematician...and there is some very stunning anomalies. But I'm not sure you can all that real evidence of wrongdoing as long as there are other potential explanations. And there are some...so we must be cautious in looking at this data. That said, we MUST look at it and conduct some deep audits of the vote in Michigan, Wiscy and PA...because SOMETHING is rotten in the state of Denmark. But no one is going to be convinced via probability charts and data citations...there must be more direct evidence and its likely going to require someone from the "inside" turning on their fellow criminals.

I really believe these Dominion machines were used to defraud millions of votes...but my belief in that means nothing nor does the President's opinion on this matter. Hard evidence...that's the only way forward...and we just don't have it yet.

Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but I do believe the standard in civil cases is "Preponderance of the Evidence" rather than "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" @Mesaclone
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Offline FeelNoPain

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2020, 01:36:31 am »
The circumstantial evidence of fraud is compelling—all in democrat voting jurisdictions (nothing dubious there). Too many statistical anomalies, logical inconsistencies, and suspicious instances where the voting even breaks the laws of physics!

Too many improbabilities to ignore. Besides, we know the character of democrats. They did this.

Then Trump's crack team should be able to knock it out of the park in court.
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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2020, 01:40:30 am »
We're just going to have to wait and see what they really have. That's the bottom line.

I agree, 100%.  In fact, I've been hollering that straight into the wind.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2020, 02:28:12 am »
It hurts me a little to agree with Roamer...at least to an extent. I've poured through a bunch of data analysis...and I'm no mathematician...and there is some very stunning anomalies. But I'm not sure you can all that real evidence of wrongdoing as long as there are other potential explanations. And there are some...so we must be cautious in looking at this data. That said, we MUST look at it and conduct some deep audits of the vote in Michigan, Wiscy and PA...because SOMETHING is rotten in the state of Denmark. But no one is going to be convinced via probability charts and data citations...there must be more direct evidence and its likely going to require someone from the "inside" turning on their fellow criminals.

I really believe these Dominion machines were used to defraud millions of votes...but my belief in that means nothing nor does the President's opinion on this matter. Hard evidence...that's the only way forward...and we just don't have it yet.

Thank you for that. And that is about where I stand right now. And believe it or not, I am leaning toward y'all in this. I believe there was fraud (there always is), and I lean hard toward massive fraud - I would not be hard to convince. But you are right. Despite my position, what it will take to prosecute this is some pretty rock-solid proof. And so far, that is not forthcoming.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 02:29:12 am by roamer_1 »

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2020, 02:31:26 am »
It was their lawyers who stiff-armed the PA Senate.  If they told them to shut up, it sounds like they are waiting for a trial before a court.  Guess why?  They don't want to release the evidence.  Why can't Sidney Powell's team get the same courtesy?

Well evidently they already seized the evidence they need... So what courtesy is required?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2020, 02:40:19 am »
Well evidently they already seized the evidence they need... So what courtesy is required?
Do we know who, specifically, has the evidence? I assume you’re referring to the Frankfurt servers.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 02:41:39 am by skeeter »

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2020, 02:49:53 am »
Do we know who, specifically, has the evidence? I assume you’re referring to the Frankfurt servers.

Yeah... Germany anyway... I thought that odd in the press conference... It sounded like it wasn't the Tump team behind that seizing. Don't quite know what to make of that.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2020, 02:53:18 am »
Yeah... Germany anyway... I thought that odd in the press conference... It sounded like it wasn't the Tump team behind that seizing. Don't quite know what to make of that.
Neither do I. Apparently the server was improperly linked to the tabulating machines in Barcelona and there’s some speculation that Espers firing was related to it. We shall see.

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2020, 02:55:29 am »
Neither do I. Apparently the server was improperly linked to the tabulating machines in Barcelona and there’s some speculation that Espers firing was related to it. We shall see.

Curiouser and curiouser...  happy77 :beer:

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Michigan: Legal Updates
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2020, 02:56:51 am »
Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but I do believe the standard in civil cases is "Preponderance of the Evidence" rather than "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" @Mesaclone

(I posted this on another thread @Bigun )

I know we're all anxious for the kraken to make a splash (see what I did there  :laugh: ) ... Personally, I'm thinking the kraken is going to be the thread that's woven through a clear and compelling story of targeted, premeditated and coordinated fraud to deny the vast majority of American voters their choice for President of the United States. (Think Supreme Court)

As for evidence, I think we can relax, at least a little. I think they've got it ... maybe a little too much.   happy77    In a civil fraud lawsuit, such as the election lawsuit(s) are/will be, the plaintiff must present clear and convincing evidence.  They are not required to present evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. 

Part of this process is to present a clear and convincing story which the evidence supports.  I imagine the President's legal team is now fine-tuning the clear and compelling story that is supported by the evidence they have collected. Remember, the team has collected this evidence without the benefit of a legal discovery phase -- so kudos to them for collecting so much evidence and kudos to the Americans who have stepped up to help provide it.

Here's a bit more on evidence: 

Quote
The burden of proof has two components. First, the plaintiff must satisfy the burden of production, which has also been referred to as the burden of going forward. As the terms suggest, this burden requires the plaintiff to put forth evidence in the form of witness testimony, documents, or objects. After the plaintiff presents his or her case-in-chief, the burden of production shifts to the defendant, who then has the opportunity to provide evidence either rebutting the plaintiff’s evidence or supporting the defendant’s own arguments.

In some civil cases, the burden of proof is elevated to a higher standard called “clear and convincing evidence.” This burden of proof requires the plaintiff to prove that a particular fact is substantially more likely than not to be true. Some courts have described this standard as requiring the plaintiff to prove that there is a high probability that a particular fact is true. This standard sets a higher threshold than the preponderance of the evidence standard, but it does not quite rise to the widely recognized standard used in criminal cases, known as “beyond a reasonable doubt.”

https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/lawsuits-and-the-court-process/evidentiary-standards-and-burdens-of-proof/

Quote
the burden of production shifts to the defendant, who then has the opportunity to provide evidence either rebutting the plaintiff’s evidence or supporting the defendant’s own arguments.


This,  pointing-up  IMHO, is why the President's legal team is not taking their evidence, chapter and verse, to the media.  It's much more likely they're using the media to test the story, not give a precise heads-up to George Soros.


So, all's good.  Tense, but good.  I hope this helps get us through another weekend with a louder, more insistent drumbeat for "evidence!", "evidence!", "evidence!" and the President's team not tipping their hand.  Yet.



« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 03:00:42 am by Right_in_Virginia »